What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

[Sedat Canbaz]

Hello Frank,

It is ok )

Yes...Gaviota is one of my favorite engine too, Miguel is another genius, not jealous, professional developer in my eyes !!

Btw, I do not see nothing wrong with that,
Even Vas clearly mentioned about it (in his interview)
Did you miss to read my previous postings, ohh ?)))

And it is very normal that Vas is studied from Fruit, what is the problem ?)
All these chess engines and ideas did not come from MARS....
Almost all of us is learning ....but not many can add +500 Elo...

And see here please the close engines near to Rybka:
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55244

And I say again:
- If Rybka (with 48% similarity to Fruit 2.1) is considering as clone by some clever experts

Then I wonder a lot :
What about the rest chess engines, which are with + 50% similarity to Rybka ?? ))


Hopes helps this time....)

Best,
Sedat

[Frank Quisinsky]

There is nothing wrong with that, and it is very normal that Vas is studied from Fruit, what is the problem ?

Sedat,

Example:
I am working on an own idea and I am very proud about it (Fabian was). I gave the idea free for all with the advantage that others can use my idea. Clear, I await that others give me also the own ideas.

Maybe you have problems to understand what Open Source, GPL is. If ohters now using my ideas for a commercial product, without to say anything about the source ... each others have to know that the ideas from the commercial product are own ideas. Good stuff for a creation of legends and you are a good example to know such "creation of legends". You are a perfect example Sedat, sorry!

This isn't my problem, it's your problem!

I say it to you in an other message. We can find more honest programmers today (have a look in the readme files).

I await from a programmer, using works by others ... to give information about it. Very important if such a programmer realize a commercial project. All must be absolutely clear for such a project. If Rybka have nothing to do with Fruit ... possible ... the programmer should be have no problems with it to send sources from Rybka 1 to an other programmer. I remember ... Vas lost the sources One of the storrys around the topic.

Should be normaly if I am thinking on Ruffian ...
Ruffian is a copy from Shredder (at this time Shredder the number 1 and Ruffian the number 2). We sent the sources to an other programmer, Perola don't have any problems with it.

Sorry Sedat ...
I cann't follow what you wrote here.
You are searching points for your discuss ... and which each message the discuss with you is poorer.

In Germany we would like to say ...
An den Haaren herbeigezogen!

Best
Frank

[Sedat Canbaz]

It is ok Frank ) if my messages are getting poorer and boring for you...
This is my last message to you !

But without to not mention this I can not (what I noticed),
When you can not find a answer to my questions, you say it is boring, poorer...etc...hehe...

But remember that,
Don't miss apples with oranges !

Because, (exception Rybka)
Many other commercial programs used too the other free available ideas, sources...and later they sold their programs....don't be too naive !

And I am not going to count which are those programs,
Because I am afraid to miss to mention some of them...but believe me many examples I can give you...




Best,
Sedat

[Terry McCracken]

Where did you get the idea I am a religious nuts?
I like to discuss that issue and many others, that is all.
Let me tell you, BTW, that there are nuts everywhere, many of them in the realms of science. I have seen too many scientist denying without giving probe that such and such affirmation is false or "non scientific", but just saying it is false with that arrogance so typical in that labour sector. Science is just a tool as a hammer is, and that's all.

Fern

My God Fern, learn to read or follow what I've said to get the implied meaning!

P.S. I hate literal people.

[Frank Quisinsky]

yes Sedat ...

Really poor ...
Your Arena comment in the direction to myself.
That was a more as 100% poor comment, sorry!
Often I read such things in a discussion in Internet fora if others have an other opinion. I missed discussion culture.

We are speaking about Rybka and not about others.
But if you have the opinion that other commercials are using in first available version, most of the work by an open source engine ... give me an example for such an engine?

Hiarcs, Junior, Shredder, Zappa, Chrion, Komodo are own engines. I am reading that the newer Fritz is an IPP engine but this comes from the same company Rykba and Houdini are. Not wonder about it. Older Fritz versions by Frans Morsch are draw king and very passive, got a complete new face since version 1.0. Latest Fritz versions lost tactical power and are in endgame stronger. First Fritz versions are tactical strong but in endgame bad. But Fritz are all the time a work by Frans Morsch and later Mathias Feist.

remember ...
In the year Fruit sources are available ... commercials aren't 30-40 Elo stronger with the "year to year" update, different are around 100 Elo stronger. Users are thinking comes from Fruit too. I am thinking we should not call the ghost. Enough is enough but indeed ... it's interesting that commercials clearly improved at this time.

One of the Commercials gave a comment to the work from Fabian. It was Chrilly Donninger, sayed that Fabian created on of the most clearly sources he ever read.

Give me examples for such commercial Versions Sedat! Can't see such an other engine (latest Fritz I haven' t tested, I am not a fan from that bugy Fritz GUI). But I read Fritz / Pandix or whatever is IPP too?!

Best
Frank

[Frank Quisinsky]

Really danger such a discussion.
You know commercials have a lot of fan boys. Much of the fan boys got free versions from time to time ...

Very danger discussion!
And if I remember and if I looking in the past with all the Information I have ... noboday will have such information I have. About the black site I can write a lot but I like it to write about the white site.

You know how many persons try it against myself.
In Winboard times, later UCI or Arena times I got 17 threats ... from Commercials too and one death threat from a German Journalist, today working ... not important!

Arena was a nice time. I am sitting years 6-8 hours on my PC. Each day 100-200 mails (and answered of every mail). Admin in the Forum and the test work for Martin. I gave him so many ideas and I try that all in the World can help us. This was the first open Project (250 beta testers for the first Arena Version from over 80 countrys) each one can help and can do a bit. 3.5 Million Downloads in 2003 ... or 2006 (latest year I am working with Martin). First FRC Support with Betsy ... nice Partner engines, like SOS or AnMon ... the MTD engines or the strong Nejmet, Dragon. The Group of French programmers helps a lot.

And you wrote about Arena and a Rybka Setup?
Never I added such an engine in Arena Setup. Must do an other person, not I.

Best
Frank

[Graham Banks]

Really danger such a discussion.
You know commercials have a lot of fan boys. Much of the fan boys got free versions from time to time ...

Fan boys is a derogatory term which is usually used in an inflammatory manner.

It is wrong to suggest that you search an "honest way", as that implies that all who disagree with you are dishonest.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Graham, we are speaking about 1+1=2

Psychology ...
"It is wrong to suggest that you search an "honest way", as that implies that all who disagree with you are dishonest."

In the moment you say that you inflamed in the name of the others. That isn't 1+1=2 ... that is Psychology 1x1.

Of course each one can have an own opinion. We are free to build an own opinion. If you say the greensward is red ... very easy ... so the greensward is red. I gave up for a Long time to explain ... the greensward is green.

Made no sense in a forum.
I respect each opinion but a disucssion should run normaly. Sedat is searching in each of his messages new Points ...

Critter, Protector, Arena ...
Not easy to disucss with him. But I like him and I disucsses with him.

Best
Frank


All the years computer chess is very clear!

Example
-----------------------------
Since six years the situation is:
----- -----------------

Sorry, I can't say thanks for it!

[Rebel]

Fern, what I learned from the whole event, thus in retrospect, is that the main mistake was made right from the beginning, good and experienced programmers thinking they also were experts in the field of clone detection. Neither of us were, myself included. Then a guy like Andrew Dalke (a real expert) comes along and tears the whole case into pieces.

Not a popular statement, I am sure.

Nor a factual statement either. He did not "tear the whole case into pieces". But you do have to read what he wrote carefully to get his meaning. Which is significantly different than what you are implying here...

Then let's see what he said keeping in mind on the one thing we agree on that ICGA rule #2 (since day one) is about copyright infringement and not about using ideas.

• 1. Functional similarity by itself does not show copyright infringement.
  
  2. Rybka was not developed as a clean-room reimplementation of Fruit, and the author has long acknowledged an intensive review of the Fruit source. The point here is only to show that functional similarity is not a clear indicator of copyright infringement.
  
  3. Some may believe that reviewing the source code to Fruit means that Rybka is necessarily a derivative work. This is incorrect. A clean-room reimplementation makes it abundantly clear that there is no copyright infringement, but the lack of a clean-room style does not mean there is infringement.
  
  4. Therefore, intensive review and study of the Fruit does not mean that Rybka infringes on the Fruit copyright just like an intensive review and study of MINIX does not mean that Linux infringes on the MINIX (or Unix) copyrights.
  
  5. The Rybka investigators acknowledge that no individual piece of evidence is the proverbial smoking gun.
  
  6. It may very well be that Rybka contains copyright infringing code. It's possible, after all, that 27 lines out of 525,000 are enough to make a substantial copyright infringement claim. The problem is that the methodology of the Rybka investigators is not strong enough to be convincing.
  
  7. They claim to use the abstraction-filtration-comparison test to determine substantial similarity, but without the appropriate filtration. At each of the structural levels they fail to show that the discovery methods are not producing false positives, and they fail to demonstrate that the similarity level is greater than would be expected from a non-infringing chess program implementing the idea at the same structural level.
  
  8. The document of Rybka investigator Zach Wegner is highly misleading. Without a mapping from the C structures based to disassembled code, it's impossible to judge the correctness of what the author writes. With a translation directly into idiomatic Fruit code, the visual similarities are overly distracting from the actual comparison, which is on a level that isn't show.
  
  9. Copyright law already acknowledges that at higher levels there's no copyright infringement because it's different expressions of a common idea. Hence the statement "high-level functionality is always equivalent in these cases" is meaningless unless it's established that this level is not high enough.

It's not much different what Fabien himself said how he created Fruit from known knowledge 8 months before Rybka 1.0 was released.

http://www.top-5000.nl/Zach/rybka.htm#fabien

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Furthermore Bob you seem to be okay that we were all laymam in the field of clone detection. Surely we could detect obvious clones (Bionic | Gunda | Houdini) in a couple of hours ending quickly in a general consensus among the programmers. The RF case is a different animal, no copyright infringement. The evidence for that is at minimum.

One can argue if Vas took too many ideas from Fruit but then you first a) have to define "too many" and b) read first what Fabien wrote himself about using ideas and knowledge from others in the giving link above.

[Rebel]

Hi Ed,

Reason 1!

Thinking on the time Igorit was available. No statement from Vas ...

Reason 2!

Thinking on the other dsicusses about the topic around Rybka - Fruit!

Reason 3!

Thinking on it was ICGA do, no official comments to the main topic at this time ... ICGA was right in my opinion!

Reason 4!

Thinking on the time Rybka 3 was availabe and differnet bugs are reported. A long time no comments from him, no update!

Reason 5!

Vas was a not available programmer for us, most of the time. Never he speak with us to important topics.

These are all points about the character of the individual Vasik Rajlich. We can discuss that (speculate about it) if you wish but it has nothing to do with the real and technical issue - Did Vas copy the Fruit sources, improved it and called it its own. That is the issue, right?