What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

[Sedat Canbaz]

Hello Frank,



After reading your last possitive coments I am here again )
Thank you...and your all comments are not boring and not poor for me !
That's the BIG difference between you and me !)

And now let's come back to our issue
Oh...yes, that's right,
Such discussions are dangerous, but not so much as you think... !)

Oh..really ? you got death threat, my friend don't be afraid too much...!
And I am not afraid from nobody, exception from the GOD !

And what is wrong with our comments ?
We are talking about originalities...everybody has own view...
I say again: nowadays is very hard to find 100 % original program
ComputerChess is really in BIG dangeour...
Especially after when IPPOLIT (Rybka) is appered on scene in May 2009

I am not BIG expert on recognizing which chess engine is original ot not
But however, I have some experience with Sim tool (once more I say thanks to Adam Hair and to Pia)
Those chess friends helped me a lot...
And what I noticed (via simtool) almost all strong engines are +50% close to Rybka

Did you noticed that too,
It looks like: even Shredder's author studied from IPPOLIT (Rybka) too )

Please check also Senpai similarities to Rybka, why Senpai is 52 % is close to Rybka ??))

Why ??? why before IPPOLIT (Rybka) release all top engines were less than 50 % similarity ??

Explain me this Frank (thanks in advance)

To be honest,
I see IPPOLIT as stolen program, and now I wonder: how many people used the stolen ideas ??))

And plus you are asking me: which are those programs, which are/were commercial
You can start with Houdini, Onno, Loop, Naum, Fruit, Rybka, etc...

And it does not mean that,
The rest commercial authors don't look at the other available free sources

Another example,
You can test the engines without books and you will see how many engines have same/similar opening code
But after all, it is all ok from my side...I have no problem with anybody, what about you Frank ??
I am trying to respect all, and I think that mostly of the programs are based mainly on own ideas !

But this is also true...and remember that,
I am against injustices...Rybka's author does not deserve this !!
Also Houdini's author does not deserve too !
Because both authors came on the scene with brilliant ideas...!
And I love the brilliant ideas...!!


Continuing...

In my opinion:

1)During 2005 years,
Many authors studied from Fruit !

2)During 2010 years,
Many authors studied from Rybka !

3)During 2015,
It looks like many authors will study from Stockfish !

That's all from my side about this issue...


Best,
Sedat

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Sedat,

sorry, now it's overmuch.
I can't follow what you wrote here.

Sources of Rybka are never free.
I missed the proof that Rybka is Igorit. Vas never give the proofs, clear he told us that he lost the own Rybka sources. 99,9% of each programmers hold older sources in a backup. Very unprofessional but after all it dovetails nicely.

Have a look in the playing style of Rybka and in the playing style of Igorit engines. Rybka's strength are each time the endgame. First Igorit versions are very poor in endgames but on the same level as Rybka 3.

The same situation with Shredder / Ruffian.
After Ruffian is selling ... Ruffian is a copy from Shredder. Why different People sayed sucht things? People can't believe that an other program reach very fast the same level the number 1 have. Solved, easy ... send sources to other programmers Vas never do.

Again, clear he lost his sources ... again!

You try a lot in creation a legend around Vas. Have a look in the five Points in my first Messages to Ed. For me is Vas not a legend. Why, can't see anything he do for the community.

With SIM3 you can't compare all. I wrote it to you often, read what the Critter programmer wrote to SIM3. Thats more as logicial for myself. Links can be found in WIKI and in my News 072.

Rybka sources are never free. Vas told us Igorit is Rybka without to give us 1 proof only. I believe if he do that to many people can see ... oh, Rybka based on Fruit after all what is happen to this topic in the beginning of Rybka. Here you have a big hole in your knowledge I believe.

Fruit and Rybka are very similar in playing style. Both engines Rybka 1.0 and the older Fruit have the same weeknesses and strengths. In case of Fruit it's very very easy to see ... very bad with many pieces on the board in king safty. Same for Senpai, same for Rybka 1. With Rybka 2 - 3 engines are clearly improved in endgames. Again, Vas are working with many helpers.

Sorry, but I will see facts and not words only. Words we can find enough to that topic.

I fully aggreed with ICGA. I don't like ICGA if I am looking what our organisation do for computer chess in the past (a bit more as nothing). But in this case ICGA is right.

The ICGA decision repair the hole computer chess had.
That was the first good decision I read from ICGA.

It's so nice to read ...
All is mine (Houdini programmer after Houdini 1.0). And the Rybka programmer thinking the same ... Igorit is Rybka, all is mine!

A persuade oneself but if others can see it ...
In both cases ... the programmers to get butthurt.

Vas and Robert can be brothers.
And in both cases commercials sellíng all this stuff after all information which are good known!!

In our life we can find out that history repeads but much more important ...
The boomerang come back every time. Different people have luck and have not to learn it. Others have to learn it.

Best
Frank

PS:
The reality is Sedat ...
Chess knowledge is good known today in programming. Better known with the work the Stockfish programmers, others do with here open sources. It's more easy to write a strong chess program as in the years before. Chess knowledge are not build from one Person alone. Chess knowledge are building from so many programmers in the latest 50-60 years.

What we have to accept are open sources without no ifs not buts. I am not a big fan from open sources. With open sources we can make computer chess better if more People can work in a Team. But with open sources the inventiveness is controlled.

If a programmer have a good idea (I am sure Vas or Robert have) such a programmer don't have a chance to released with own ideas and with good known knowledge. Topic ...reinvent the wheel.

Quisinsky will see it and will write in bad English

Not sure ... should I howl or should laugh with Open sources. Nothing is perfect. Programmers working on open sources are thinking ... that is perfect. Programmers working on a chess engine without open sources are thinking ... that is perfect.

I am thinking in times today all is much more complicated with open sources and I am thinking with open sources Young talents are restricted! Older talents lost his interest ... the front of new programs are to strong. Glory and honor will get to the first open source engines. That isn't right too. This Problem we can observe in the future, believe me.

[hgm]

Then let's see what he said keeping in mind on the one thing we agree on that ICGA rule #2 (since day one) is about copyright infringement and not about using ideas.

Were did you get that nonsense from?

ICGA rule #2 has absolutely nothing to do with copyright infringement. It is about originality. Re-implementing the same algorithm with your own code will not infringe on any copyright, but it will utterly fail ICGA rule #2.

What you quote here addresses copyright infringement, and is thus totally irrelevant for the ICGA-Rybka case. The copyright infringement would decide whether Vas would have to go to jail, or pay damages to Fabien. The algorithmic similarity determines whether you have to be banned from the WCCC.

[Rebel]

Go talk with Bob. Rule #2 is about copying code. You might want to argue how it is worded but that's the historical background against those who start from alien source code, make changes and call it their own.

[hgm]

Go talk with Bob. Rule #2 is about copying code. You might want to argue how it is worded but that's the historical background against those who start from alien source code, make changes and call it their own.

Wrong. I can completely rewrite Fruit so that it is totally free of copyright, but produces totally identical scores and node counts on any position I let it search, submit my source code and that of Fruit to the ICGA to show them beyond any doubt that the code is completely rewritten, and they would still ban me based on rule #2. I am sure that Bob and I would agree on this, but even if he doesn't, he would be wrong.

Of course a program that does contain copied codes would surely violate the originality criterion of rule #2 as well, as the same code definitely would imply the same algorithm and the same results.

[Henk]

Go talk with Bob. Rule #2 is about copying code. You might want to argue how it is worded but that's the historical background against those who start from alien source code, make changes and call it their own.

Wrong. I can completely rewrite Fruit so that it is totally free of copyright, but produces totally identical scores and node counts on any position I let it search, submit my source code and that of Fruit to the ICGA to show them beyond any doubt that the code is completely rewritten, and they would still ban me based on rule #2. I am sure that Bob and I would agree on this, but even if he doesn't, he would be wrong.

Of course a program that does contain copied codes would surely violate the originality criterion of rule #2 as well, as the same code definitely would imply the same algorithm and the same results.

I program in see sharp (C#). But sometimes that is not necessary.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi,

in my opinion the playing style of an engine is a good point to compare. Not easy to do that and we haven't enough good tools for it. I am sure that such tools will be available in the next years. We can so many do with the games we produced, so many stuff for good GUI programmers to the Topic "statistic" you are.

Interesting what you sayed here. Such an opinion I read in the past from a lot good known programmers. With so many I had mail contacts and most of the programmers are able to explain me what I not understand.

Maybe for a handfull programmers it's nice brain jogging and they sitting at home and have fun if others celebrate such a work.

But we goes with good examples in the future.
So many strong and new develops can be follow. Clearly different styles can be see. I think it goes upwards if I compare the situation today with the situation for around 2-5 years.

Only bad is that a lot of good known programmers lost interest in developing chess engines. After all I know the most for the same reason.

Best
Frank

[Graham Banks]

......The ICGA decision repair the hole computer chess had.......

Really?
Their tournaments virtually mean nothing these days.

[Graham Banks]

...... a lot of good known programmers lost interest in developing chess engines. After all I know the most for the same reason.........

In any hobby or interest, some people lose their enthusiasm and drop out.
There are always new ones that come in to replace them.
There are more chess engines available these days than ever before.

[Terry McCracken]

......The ICGA decision repair the hole computer chess had.......

Really?
Their tournaments virtually mean nothing these days.

It's your fault.