Komodo - Rybka in Danger?

[benstoker]

3. Is the evaluation funcion really Rybka's property or it was borrowed by Fruit?

Slobo

You know, I looked up the old threads with the claims Rybka Beta was taken from Fruit. And even the 'evidence'. I participated in these discussions at the time, and was wondering now why my memory was that the accusations were pure bunk. Having re-read the threads, I now remember. The 'evidence' was not anything related to Fruit's search or evaluation, rather it was on the UCI code.

Those who were desperate to shoot Vas down, no doubt envious of his achievements, claimed that any code taken was forbidden and unethical. I, and some others, argued that to claim Rybka was a clone of any kind based on UCI code was utterly stupid, since when one speaks of clone, one presumes playing strength, knowledge and ability, not how it sends its moves. One could perfectly well argue that taking the UCI code, if true, was wrong, but not that this constituted proof of any kind that it was a clone.

The accusers then claimed they would present a large sample of proof, but this proof never materialized. We are told there is clear proof, but it is a secret. Secret proof.

Vas has no way to prove anything publicly without giving away his source code.

No one seems to think he has that right to keep his own code secret.

Of course he could show you sections of that code, in which case you will say that he faked it. The best he can do is what he has already done.

To me this has been a terrible injustice to Vas, it's like getting robbed, and then having a different gang of thugs come after you with baseball bats.

You are totally incorrect.

Software piracy cases are conducted in courts every day of the week and they don't dump the code for the public to see!! Are you crazy?

That's why Rybka & Co. needs to at least make a public announcement that ACTION IS BEING TAKEN. Shit, that' just about all a boy would need to say to the public.

OF COURSE he has the right to keep his own code secret!

"The best he can do is what has already been done"

Let us all remember this one. Because at this point Vas has DONE NOTHING.

And Vas can do nothing because he'll be forced to take his clothes off.

So, Vas must just take it like a man. Oh woh is me. He can do nothing about it. Gimme a break.

Damn, your world is weird. Sounds almost like an invitation for all the members here to come steal your software. What would Don do about it? He said so himself: NOTHING.

I hope Vas ain't listening to this inane reasoning. I hope he has enough man in him to take it to these alleged thieves. Maybe the guy has been sitting around getting drunk listening to too much of Don's type of advice.

Oh no Vas, you can't do anything. Oh no, Vas, you may win the battle, but lose the war. Oh no, Vas, didn't you know, you're in a damnable catch-22, you lose at the start because you gotta post your source code on CCC if you want to prove your case.

Maybe Vas has been listening to your bend-me-over-and-take-it approach to the software business.

And then the timing of LK's new job.

An alignment of the stars ...

[Graham Banks]

Software piracy cases are conducted in courts every day of the week and they don't dump the code for the public to see!! Are you crazy?

That's why Rybka & Co. needs to at least make a public announcement that ACTION IS BEING TAKEN. Shit, that' just about all a boy would need to say to the public.

OF COURSE he has the right to keep his own code secret!

"The best he can do is what has already been done"

Let us all remember this one. Because at this point Vas has DONE NOTHING.

And Vas can do nothing because he'll be forced to take his clothes off.

So, Vas must just take it like a man. Oh woh is me. He can do nothing about it. Gimme a break.

Damn, your world is weird. Sounds almost like an invitation for all the members here to come steal your software. What would Don do about it? He said so himself: NOTHING.

I hope Vas ain't listening to this inane reasoning. I hope he has enough man in him to take it to these alleged thieves. Maybe the guy has been sitting around getting drunk listening to too much of Don's type of advice.

Oh no Vas, you can't do anything. Oh no, Vas, you may win the battle, but lose the war. Oh no, Vas, didn't you know, you're in a damnable catch-22, you lose at the start because you gotta post your source code on CCC if you want to prove your case.

Maybe Vas has been listening to your bend-me-over-and-take-it approach to the software business.

And then the timing of LK's new job.

An alignment of the stars ...

Sounds like something is bugging you.

[benstoker]

3. Is the evaluation funcion really Rybka's property or it was borrowed by Fruit?

Slobo

You know, I looked up the old threads with the claims Rybka Beta was taken from Fruit. And even the 'evidence'. I participated in these discussions at the time, and was wondering now why my memory was that the accusations were pure bunk. Having re-read the threads, I now remember. The 'evidence' was not anything related to Fruit's search or evaluation, rather it was on the UCI code.

Those who were desperate to shoot Vas down, no doubt envious of his achievements, claimed that any code taken was forbidden and unethical. I, and some others, argued that to claim Rybka was a clone of any kind based on UCI code was utterly stupid, since when one speaks of clone, one presumes playing strength, knowledge and ability, not how it sends its moves. One could perfectly well argue that taking the UCI code, if true, was wrong, but not that this constituted proof of any kind that it was a clone.

The accusers then claimed they would present a large sample of proof, but this proof never materialized. We are told there is clear proof, but it is a secret. Secret proof.

As far as I know Vas still has code that is closed source, so he has not way to prove anything publicly without giving away his source code.

Of course nobody seems to think he has that right to keep his own code secret.

Of course he could show you sections of that code, in which case you will say that he faked it.

So you guys are being jerks by demanding that he reveal his proof to you and casting him as a false accuser and unethical. The victim is the unethical one because he will not make his code public to you.

You guys?

I'm from the U.S. Midwest and that is a term in common usage. Is this what your argument comes down to, making fun of someones grammer?

English misses a distinctive second person plural. Lost it back around the 14th century I suspect. Our modals have deteriorated also.

[benstoker]

Software piracy cases are conducted in courts every day of the week and they don't dump the code for the public to see!! Are you crazy?

That's why Rybka & Co. needs to at least make a public announcement that ACTION IS BEING TAKEN. Shit, that' just about all a boy would need to say to the public.

OF COURSE he has the right to keep his own code secret!

"The best he can do is what has already been done"

Let us all remember this one. Because at this point Vas has DONE NOTHING.

And Vas can do nothing because he'll be forced to take his clothes off.

So, Vas must just take it like a man. Oh woh is me. He can do nothing about it. Gimme a break.

Damn, your world is weird. Sounds almost like an invitation for all the members here to come steal your software. What would Don do about it? He said so himself: NOTHING.

I hope Vas ain't listening to this inane reasoning. I hope he has enough man in him to take it to these alleged thieves. Maybe the guy has been sitting around getting drunk listening to too much of Don's type of advice.

Oh no Vas, you can't do anything. Oh no, Vas, you may win the battle, but lose the war. Oh no, Vas, didn't you know, you're in a damnable catch-22, you lose at the start because you gotta post your source code on CCC if you want to prove your case.

Maybe Vas has been listening to your bend-me-over-and-take-it approach to the software business.

And then the timing of LK's new job.

An alignment of the stars ...

Sounds like something is bugging you.

.

[benstoker]

PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: Komodo - Rybka in Danger?

slobo wrote:

"2. the presence of these tables is sufficient to call Ippolit derivates clones?

3. Is the evaluation funcion really Rybka's property or it was borrowed by Fruit?"

Regarding point 2, I prefer to use the term "derivative" rather than clone since they are not identical, but slightly modified.
Regarding point 3, I don't know anything about the differences between Fruit and Rybka 1, as I joined Rybka in the middle of Rybka 2. But I can say that the Rybka 3 eval is quite different in most respects from the eval when I joined the team, as I was given full responsibility for all numerical values of existing terms as well as proposing the huge number of new terms added to make Rybka 3. So regardless of any similarities in the eval that may or may not exist between Rybka 1 and Fruit, the eval in Rybka 3 is original work, Vas doing the coding and I setting the values. It was my opinion that the eval in Rybka 1 was in general quite poor (Vas disagrees with this) and so I basically discarded most of it.

We made a little progress, Larry, and I decided to go ahead.
You base your claim of Ippo being Rybka's "derivative" on two similarities:

1. the king location tables
2. the evaluation funcion

Have you, or Rybka's team found such tables in RobboLito's codes?
If you have, then show us the part of Rybka's code with these tables and the problem is solved.

If you and Rybka's team decide not to show them we could suspect that it was Rybka's team that has stolen the king location tables from Ippo family.

Now you can say : I have no Rybka's code except the evaluation function.

Well, show us then your evaluation function, so that we can compare it with Robbo's evaluation function. Anyway, it is not secret anymore. You said that they are almost identical.




really Rybka's property or it was borrowed by Fruit?

Finally! The discussion starts to deal with facts and not the cast of characters.

[Christopher Conkie]

PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: Komodo - Rybka in Danger?

slobo wrote:

"2. the presence of these tables is sufficient to call Ippolit derivates clones?

3. Is the evaluation funcion really Rybka's property or it was borrowed by Fruit?"

Regarding point 2, I prefer to use the term "derivative" rather than clone since they are not identical, but slightly modified.
Regarding point 3, I don't know anything about the differences between Fruit and Rybka 1, as I joined Rybka in the middle of Rybka 2. But I can say that the Rybka 3 eval is quite different in most respects from the eval when I joined the team, as I was given full responsibility for all numerical values of existing terms as well as proposing the huge number of new terms added to make Rybka 3. So regardless of any similarities in the eval that may or may not exist between Rybka 1 and Fruit, the eval in Rybka 3 is original work, Vas doing the coding and I setting the values. It was my opinion that the eval in Rybka 1 was in general quite poor (Vas disagrees with this) and so I basically discarded most of it.

We made a little progress, Larry, and I decided to go ahead.
You base your claim of Ippo being Rybka's "derivative" on two similarities:

1. the king location tables
2. the evaluation funcion

Have you, or Rybka's team found such tables in RobboLito's codes?
If you have, then show us the part of Rybka's code with these tables and the problem is solved.

If you and Rybka's team decide not to show them we could suspect that it was Rybka's team that has stolen the king location tables from Ippo family.

Now you can say : I have no Rybka's code except the evaluation function.

Well, show us then your evaluation function, so that we can compare it with Robbo's evaluation function. Anyway, it is not secret anymore. You said that they are almost identical.




really Rybka's property or it was borrowed by Fruit?

Finally! The discussion starts to deal with facts and not the cast of characters.

If you ask me. This part of the thread is tremendously boring.

[lkaufman]

There is a difference between the questions of whether what the derivative-makers did was illegal and whether it is just dishonest/immoral. Perhaps they reverse-engineered the code, which I believe is not illegal, and then made their own program by modifying it. If it ever went to court, I suppose it would come down to how great the changes were. Maybe Vas thinks that's a difficult case to win, considering also the problem of trying to sue people who may live in countries that are under very different legal systems. The one thing that is clear is that the similarity of these programs to Rybka is too great to be attributed to anything other than starting with a reverse-engineered (or stolen) code and then making changes. That may not be enough to win a lawsuit though, I have no idea of how much things have to be changed to be legally in the clear. I do know that if I had made the world's (arguably) strongest chess program I wouldn't keep my name secret. You can be sure that if Komodo ever passes Rybka Don and I won't deny authorship!

[tomgdrums]

There is a difference between the questions of whether what the derivative-makers did was illegal and whether it is just dishonest/immoral. Perhaps they reverse-engineered the code, which I believe is not illegal, and then made their own program by modifying it. If it ever went to court, I suppose it would come down to how great the changes were. Maybe Vas thinks that's a difficult case to win, considering also the problem of trying to sue people who may live in countries that are under very different legal systems. The one thing that is clear is that the similarity of these programs to Rybka is too great to be attributed to anything other than starting with a reverse-engineered (or stolen) code and then making changes. That may not be enough to win a lawsuit though, I have no idea of how much things have to be changed to be legally in the clear. I do know that if I had made the world's (arguably) strongest chess program I wouldn't keep my name secret. You can be sure that if Komodo ever passes Rybka Don and I won't deny authorship!

Well said.

[benstoker]

If you ask me. This part of the thread is tremendously boring.

Then what are you waiting for? Bleat out a scurrility.

[BubbaTough]

There is a difference between the questions of whether what the derivative-makers did was illegal and whether it is just dishonest/immoral. Perhaps they reverse-engineered the code, which I believe is not illegal, and then made their own program by modifying it. If it ever went to court, I suppose it would come down to how great the changes were. Maybe Vas thinks that's a difficult case to win, considering also the problem of trying to sue people who may live in countries that are under very different legal systems. The one thing that is clear is that the similarity of these programs to Rybka is too great to be attributed to anything other than starting with a reverse-engineered (or stolen) code and then making changes. That may not be enough to win a lawsuit though, I have no idea of how much things have to be changed to be legally in the clear. I do know that if I had made the world's (arguably) strongest chess program I wouldn't keep my name secret. You can be sure that if Komodo ever passes Rybka Don and I won't deny authorship!

This sounds 100% right to me, and its befuddling to me that anyone in the industry (excluding those with a purely academic perspective or a personal interest) would disagree with this analysis, though apparently some do.

-Sam