Is EMAN the future number one?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderator: Ras

User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 4889
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: Is EMAN the future number one?

Post by MikeB »

corres wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:25 am
MikeB wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:15 am
corres wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:01 pm
MikeB wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:05 am ... all Eman's author... how many??
please learn how to quote properly, it's not good form to mangle or make up quotes - thank you.
What is your problem?
From your text it seems to me Eman has more than one author. If we count the authors of Stockfish also, it would be true.
Sorry man - but there is no post by me where I said "all Eman's author.." from the post you quoted or any other post by me, would appreciate it if you can fix your problem ok? - thank you!

http://talkchess.com/forum3/search.php? ... mit=Search

You attributed a quote by Ovyron to me. Ok-are we clear? - thank you.
Image
User avatar
Ovyron
Posts: 4562
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:30 am

Re: Is EMAN the future number one?

Post by Ovyron »

Ah, he put MikeB in there instead of me.

When I say "Eman's author" I refer to Khalid Omar. This is by necessity because if I wanted to say "Eman's author is a thief", of course "Eman's authors are thieves" wouldn't work.

If I say "Honey's author" then I mean MikeB. Should be clear enough.
User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 4889
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: Is EMAN the future number one?

Post by MikeB »

Ovyron wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:32 am Ah, he put MikeB in there instead of me.

When I say "Eman's author" I refer to Khalid Omar. This is by necessity because if I wanted to say "Eman's author is a thief", of course "Eman's authors are thieves" wouldn't work.

If I say "Honey's author" then I mean MikeB. Should be clear enough.
I would think. Thank you.
Image
corres
Posts: 3657
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:41 am
Location: hungary

Re: Is EMAN the future number one?

Post by corres »

MikeB wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:30 am ...
You attributed a quote by Ovyron to me. Ok-are we clear? - thank you.
Sorry, but you are right!
Everything is O.K.
User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 4889
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: Is EMAN the future number one?

Post by MikeB »

corres wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:25 am
MikeB wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:30 am ...
You attributed a quote by Ovyron to me. Ok-are we clear? - thank you.
Sorry, but you are right!
Everything is O.K.
Don't worry about it. I was overtired and a little bit grouchy. You made an honest mistake. My apologies for being rude. We're good!
Image
marsell
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:14 am

Re: Is EMAN the future number one?

Post by marsell »

After your test is EMAN the future number one,or not? What is your opinion? And what was the effect of learning?
User avatar
Ovyron
Posts: 4562
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:30 am

Re: Is EMAN the future number one?

Post by Ovyron »

You don't need to test for this. At Playchess people spend playing hundreds of games to decide which is the best thing they can use to maximize their performance, and they keep using the most effective thing for their book and hardware. They're not going to use Leela because on paper their GPU should be stronger than their CPU, they're going to use it only if it performs better. The "start game with Leela and switch to Stockfish" approach wasn't better for some than just Leela alone or Stockfish alone.

If Eman and its learning or another original feature was worth it, you could be dang sure that most people would use it. They prefer another version, which means that the answer you're looking for is: no. Eman is not the future number one.

I consider this "the real world", the top players play the strongest chess lines that they know, because this is the only remaining way to beat other top players. As opposed to "generic" openings used by CCRL, TCEC or someone testing engines at home. Most generic variations used have become as irrelevant as 1.c3, but people keep using them to test because they're happy if both engines play from the same position a set of games.

The top players will only play relevant lines, and it's in those where we will see if Leela is on top, or some Stockfish derivative, or even some combination of both. So how is Eman doing? Not better than Brainfish, at least, and people aren't even using Cerebellum library, so if this is just Stockfish, Eman hasn't been able to perform better than the engine it's based on, where it matters.

Book lines are queens, with a good book it doesn't matter if you're using some months old Stockfish dev.
carldaman
Posts: 2287
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:13 am

Re: Is EMAN the future number one?

Post by carldaman »

Don't make fun of 1. c3 !?, because SultanKhan 2.0 plays it successfully! :mrgreen:
Khan is another revolutionary 'in the works' engine that I'm testing: a strategic engine, based on pawn play and structure. :D
User avatar
Ovyron
Posts: 4562
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:30 am

Re: Is EMAN the future number one?

Post by Ovyron »

Hope to see how it performs on Playchess :) (we have free accounts, come join us)

I actually had a book that did decently with 1.c3, it was a draw machine. I had to abandon it because there were no wins in sight, I couldn't even beat Fritz 15 :shock:
corres
Posts: 3657
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:41 am
Location: hungary

Re: Is EMAN the future number one?

Post by corres »

Ovyron wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:05 am You don't need to test for this. At Playchess people spend playing hundreds of games to decide which is the best thing they can use to maximize their performance, and they keep using the most effective thing for their book and hardware. They're not going to use Leela because on paper their GPU should be stronger than their CPU, they're going to use it only if it performs better. The "start game with Leela and switch to Stockfish" approach wasn't better for some than just Leela alone or Stockfish alone.
If Eman and its learning or another original feature was worth it, you could be dang sure that most people would use it. They prefer another version, which means that the answer you're looking for is: no. Eman is not the future number one.
I consider this "the real world", the top players play the strongest chess lines that they know, because this is the only remaining way to beat other top players. As opposed to "generic" openings used by CCRL, TCEC or someone testing engines at home. Most generic variations used have become as irrelevant as 1.c3, but people keep using them to test because they're happy if both engines play from the same position a set of games.
The top players will only play relevant lines, and it's in those where we will see if Leela is on top, or some Stockfish derivative, or even some combination of both. So how is Eman doing? Not better than Brainfish, at least, and people aren't even using Cerebellum library, so if this is just Stockfish, Eman hasn't been able to perform better than the engine it's based on, where it matters.
Book lines are queens, with a good book it doesn't matter if you're using some months old Stockfish dev.
The chess power of Stockfish is the most equalized one. If somebody modify its structure of code and parameters it is very possible the chess power of Stockfish will lessen. Only in some lucky cases we can hope for some enhancement in Elo.
If Khalid could use the test system of Stockfish, maybe he could reach a better Eman, without this it is a hopeless business.
Big words can not replace the big behaviors.