Freestyle Chess is Coming Home

[Ozymandias]

If the side with the material advantage has pawns then it is possible that he cannot prevent the opponent to force stalemate.

[...]

I do not like the idea that forcing a stalemate is a win even if the side that forced it has only a king but if you go by that rule then at least you should be consistent and decide that losing on time cannot help you relative to what you can achieve by not losing on time.

In the proposal we discussed, only K + minor vs bare K is considered a "material win". If you have pawns, the game may go on until a mate or a stalemate is reached. This was also what Arno hinted at, all those years ago, in the link I provided earlier. Still waiting on the updated rules, though.

I never heard about that "losing on time" clause. If you lose on time, it's 0 points, no bonus ever. What's worse, in the accompanying example, there's no "material advantage" to speak of, so I have no idea what Arno might have meant by the quoted text.

[Ozymandias]

The unintended consequence of such a rule change is that no one will want to take any chances for fear of being down a pawn, which can automatically lose a K+P endgame

That's been proven not to be the case. So far we've seen some games with one side a pawn up, but not a single forced stalemate.

Furthermore, the only real materiel advantage achieved, originated form this opening position:


[fen]rnbq1rk1/ppp2ppp/3b1n2/3pp3/8/2NP1NP1/PPP1PPBP/R1BQ1RK1 b - - 7 6[/fen]


If anything, I'm seeing more variety.

[Eduard]

The rules of chess mustn't be changed, that's my opinion. But you can add rules. If you only have one bare king and the opponent lets his clock run down (my German translate is incorrectly, that's why I write like this) then you have not won. If your opponent is even one move from stalemate, he is not stalemated. These new rules harm chess. They are confusing and do nothing to make the game more attractive. My engine games are more exciting.

[Uri Blass]

If the side with the material advantage has pawns then it is possible that he cannot prevent the opponent to force stalemate.

[...]

I do not like the idea that forcing a stalemate is a win even if the side that forced it has only a king but if you go by that rule then at least you should be consistent and decide that losing on time cannot help you relative to what you can achieve by not losing on time.

In the proposal we discussed, only K + minor vs bare K is considered a "material win". If you have pawns, the game may go on until a mate or a stalemate is reached. This was also what Arno hinted at, all those years ago, in the link I provided earlier. Still waiting on the updated rules, though.

I never heard about that "losing on time" clause. If you lose on time, it's 0 points, no bonus ever. What's worse, in the accompanying example, there's no "material advantage" to speak of, so I have no idea what Arno might have meant by the quoted text.

For losing on time it is known that in normal chess if you lose on time it is not a loss unless there is a way to help the opponent to give checkmate.
By the same logic I think that losing on time is a loss based on material if there is no way to help the opponent to give checkmate but there is a way to help the opponent to win based on material.

KP vs K can be also a draw by repetition in some cases.
I understand in this case that this type of draw is not a win by material but a draw and win by material can happen only in KN vs K or KB vs K(and not every case of material advantage that is not enough to win is considered a win).

What happens in the following position?

[fen]8/8/8/2B5/8/2b5/8/RK5k b - - 0 1 [/fen]

In normal chess black play Bxa1 and claim a draw because there is no way to force checkmate.
If I understand correctly with the new rules white can claim a win based on material.

I also understand that the following position is a draw and not a win by material by the new rules.

[fen]4k3/8/p1p1p1p1/P1P1P1P1/8/8/8/1KB5 w - - 0 1 [/fen]

[Ozymandias]

For losing on time it is known that in normal chess if you lose on time it is not a loss unless there is a way to help the opponent to give checkmate.
By the same logic I think that losing on time is a loss based on material if there is no way to help the opponent to give checkmate but there is a way to help the opponent to win based on material.

Yes, in some cases you win on time but are only awarded a draw because you can't mate the opponent. But I've only ever seen this on blitz, with a 30 second increment, you either ask the TD to rule the position or play it. If you play it, the clock should count for something, letting it run out only to ask for a postmortem ruling doesn't seem in accordance with fair play.

I understand in this case that this type of draw is not a win by material but a draw and win by material can happen only in KN vs K or KB vs K(and not every case of material advantage that is not enough to win is considered a win).

We discussed other endings which don't win like KNN v K, but since the stalemate can be forced, it makes no difference. Other endings like K + any number of same colored bishops are so extravagant that including them would only make the rule unnecessarily complicated.

What happens in the following position?

[fen]8/8/8/2B5/8/2b5/8/RK5k b - - 0 1 [/fen]

In normal chess black play Bxa1 and claim a draw because there is no way to force checkmate.
If I understand correctly with the new rules white can claim a win based on material.

It says here, in section 7.3, that the "material win“ is against a bare king, so white must wait until black's King is alone. He can't claim the material win yet.

I also understand that the following position is a draw and not a win by material by the new rules.

[fen]4k3/8/p1p1p1p1/P1P1P1P1/8/8/8/1KB5 w - - 0 1 [/fen]

Correct.

[Eduard]

Freestyle Report by Arno Nickel:

Rounds 4 - 7:
http://www.infinitychess.com/Page/Publi ... spx?id=352

Thank You!

[Ozymandias]

Arno's report always stroke me as more relevant than, say, those of GM Lutz. Well, this time he outdid himself. Not only are key variants and positions analyzed, as usual, but the general evaluation of both the games as well as the tournament are spot on.

[Ozymandias]

Tournament is over, cross-table of the "played" (*) games by SCID:

Code: Select all

Freestyle Chess League Qualification Tour (starts 13thNovember, 1830 ST)
Infinity Chess, 2021.11.13 - 2022.01.16
Average Rating: 2565  (Category 13)
                      Rtng   Score      D C S S O M T T K O o F P V M F R A e O   Perf Chg Percnt
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1: Dovahkiin         2617   6.0 / 11   X = . = = = = . . . . . = = = = 1 = . .   2611  -1  54.5%  (+1 -0 =10)
 2: ChessLion         2475   6.0 / 11   = X = = = = . . . . . = . = . = = = . 1   2596 +19  54.5%  (+1 -0 =10)
 3: Solista           2648   6.0 / 11   . = X = . . . . = = = . . = = = = 1 = .   2587 -10  54.5%  (+1 -0 =10)
 4: Spaghetti_Chess   2595   5.5 / 11   = = = X = = = = . . . . = = = . = . . .   2595  +0  50.0%  (+0 -0 =11)
 5: Ozymandias        2656   5.5 / 11   = = . = X = = = = . . . . = = = = . . .   2584 -11  50.0%  (+0 -0 =11)
 6: MiG29             2643   5.5 / 11   = = . = = X = = . = . . . = . = = . = .   2598  -8  50.0%  (+0 -0 =11)
 7: Take5             2638   5.5 / 11   = . . = = = X = = . . = . = . = = . = .   2582  -9  50.0%  (+0 -0 =11)
 8: Thomas_A_Anderson 2642   5.5 / 11   . . . = = = = X . = = . . = = = = = . .   2582 -10  50.0%  (+0 -0 =11)
 9: KRAKEN            2497   5.5 / 11   . . = . = . = . X = = = = . = . . = = =   2539  +7  50.0%  (+0 -0 =11)
10: Orianos           2642   5.5 / 11   . . = . . = . = = X = = = . = . . = = =   2524 -19  50.0%  (+0 -0 =11)
11: ocirema           2462   5.5 / 11   . . = . . . . = = = X = = = = . . = = =   2522 +10  50.0%  (+0 -0 =11)
12: FireFather        2397   5.5 / 11   . = . . . . = . = = = X = . = . = = = =   2517 +19  50.0%  (+0 -0 =11)
13: PublicEnemyN1     2561   5.0 /  9   = . . = . . . . = = = = X . . . . = = 1   2537  -4  55.5%  (+1 -0 =8)
14: Victorious        2613   5.0 / 10   = = = = = = = = . . = . . X . = . . . .   2588  -4  50.0%  (+0 -0 =10)
15: Medusa            2521   5.0 / 10   = . = = = . . = = = = = . . X . . . . =   2546  +4  50.0%  (+0 -0 =10)
16: Farseer           2586   5.0 / 10   = = = . = = = = . . . . . = . X = . . =   2586  +0  50.0%  (+0 -0 =10)
17: Regina_H.Milch    2648   5.0 / 11   0 = = = = = = = . . . = . . . = X . . =   2532 -18  45.4%  (+0 -1 =10)
18: ArKheiN           2447   4.5 / 10   = = 0 . . . . = = = = = = . . . . X . =   2477  +5  45.0%  (+0 -1 =9)
19: edward            2643   4.0 /  8   . . = . . = = . = = = = = . . . . . X .   2552 -10  50.0%  (+0 -0 =8)
20: OlivierEvan       2382   4.0 / 10   . 0 . . . . . . = = = = 0 . = = = = . X   2436  +8  40.0%  (+0 -2 =8)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
105 games: +2 =101 -2

4 wins out of 105 games doesn't sound that bad, but keep in mind that two of them were already posted in this thread, while the other was a TD ruling on a dead draw position and last but not latest, a blunder brought a 0.00 score to a decisive advantage in the fourth one. This is the official thing with forfeits and all:

Code: Select all

Rank	Player		Rating	Diff	1		2		3		4		5		6		7		8		9		10		11		TPoints		BH	SBP
1	Victorious	2610	-4	b 1/2 / 13	w 1/2 / 9	b 1/2 / 3	b 1/2 / 10	w 1/2 / 8	b 1 / 18	w 1/2 / 5	b 1/2 / 2	w 1/2 / 4	b 1/2 / 6	w 1/2 / 7	6.0 / 11	51.5	33.5
2	ChessLion	2415	+66	w 1/2 / 7	b 1/2 / 12	w 1/2 / 16	b 1 / 20	b 1/2 / 5	w 1/2 / 6	b 1/2 / 17	w 1/2 / 1	b 1/2 / 8	b 1/2 / 4	w 1/2 / 3	6.0 / 11	51.5	32.25
3	Dovahkiin	2609	+1	w 1/2 / 12	b 1/2 / 7	w 1/2 / 1	w 1/2 / 9	b 1/2 / 18	w 1/2 / 11	b 1/2 / 8	w 1/2 / 6	b 1 / 17	w 1/2 / 5	b 1/2 / 2	6.0 / 11	51	33
4	Solista		2500	+91	w 1/2 / 17	b 1/2 / 11	w 1/2 / 19	b 1/2 / 14	w 1/2 / 7	w 1/2 / 15	b 1/2 / 13	w 1 / 12	b 1/2 / 1	w 1/2 / 2	b 1/2 / 5	6.0 / 11	51	33
5	Farseer		2586	-2	w 1/2 / 20	b 1 / 18	w 1/2 / 6	b 1/2 / 17	w 1/2 / 2	b 1/2 / 8	b 1/2 / 1	w 1/2 / 10	b 1/2 / 9	b 1/2 / 3	w 1/2 / 4	6.0 / 11	51	32.5
6	Ozymandias	2656	-28	w 1/2 / 11	b 1/2 / 17	b 1/2 / 5	w 1/2 / 8	b 1/2 / 10	b 1/2 / 2	w 1/2 / 9	b 1/2 / 3	w 1/2 / 7	w 1/2 / 1	b 1/2 / 15	5.5 / 11	51.5	31
7	Spaghetti_Chess	2595		b 1/2 / 2	w 1/2 / 3	b 1/2 / 11	w 1/2 / 18	b 1/2 / 4	w 1/2 / 9	b 1/2 / 10	w 1/2 / 17	b 1/2 / 6	w 1/2 / 8	b 1/2 / 1	5.5 / 11	51.5	30.75
8	MiG29		2643	-23	w 1/2 / 19	b 1/2 / 10	w 1/2 / 17	b 1/2 / 6	b 1/2 / 1	w 1/2 / 5	w 1/2 / 3	b 1/2 / 9	w 1/2 / 2	b 1/2 / 7	w 1/2 / 14	5.5 / 11	51.5	30.5
9	Take5		2638	-23	w 1/2 / 15	b 1/2 / 1	w 1/2 / 10	b 1/2 / 3	w 1/2 / 17	b 1/2 / 7	b 1/2 / 6	w 1/2 / 8	w 1/2 / 5	b 1/2 / 16	w 1/2 / 19	5.5 / 11	51	 
10	Thomas_A_Ander	2642	-25	b 1/2 / 14	w 1/2 / 8	b 1/2 / 9	w 1/2 / 1	w 1/2 / 6	b 1/2 / 17	w 1/2 / 7	b 1/2 / 5	w 1/2 / 13	b 1/2 / 11	b 1/2 / 12	5.5 / 11	50.5	30.5
11	Medusa		2500	+20	b 1/2 / 6	w 1/2 / 4	w 1/2 / 7	b 1/2 / 19	w 1/2 / 14	b 1/2 / 3	w 1/2 / 15	b 1/2 / 13	b 1/2 / 16	w 1/2 / 10	w 1/2 / 20	5.5 / 11	50.5	29.5
12	ArKheiN		2438	+6	b 1/2 / 3	w 1/2 / 2	b 1/2 / 13	b 1/2 / 15	w 1/2 / 16	b 1/2 / 20	w 1/2 / 18	b 0 / 4		w 1/2 / 14	b 1 / 19	w 1/2 / 10	5.5 / 11	50.5	28.75
13	ocirema		2450	+16	w 1/2 / 1	b 1/2 / 15	w 1/2 / 12	b 1/2 / 16	w 1/2 / 20	b 1/2 / 19	w 1/2 / 4	w 1/2 / 11	b 1/2 / 10	b 1/2 / 14	w 1/2 / 18	5.5 / 11	50	 
14	Orianos		2500	+5	w 1/2 / 10	b 1/2 / 19	w 1/2 / 15	w 1/2 / 4	b 1/2 / 11	w 1/2 / 16	b 1/2 / 20	w 1/2 / 18	b 1/2 / 12	w 1/2 / 13	b 1/2 / 8	5.5 / 11	49.5	29
15	KRAKEN		2475	+18	b 1/2 / 9	w 1/2 / 13	b 1/2 / 14	w 1/2 / 12	w 1/2 / 19	b 1/2 / 4	b 1/2 / 11	w 1/2 / 16	b 1/2 / 20	w 1/2 / 18	w 1/2 / 6	5.5 / 11	49.5	29
16	FireFather	2357	+48	w 1/2 / 18	b 1/2 / 20	b 1/2 / 2	w 1/2 / 13	b 1/2 / 12	b 1/2 / 14	w 1/2 / 19	b 1/2 / 15	w 1/2 / 11	w 1/2 / 9	b 1/2 / 17	5.5 / 11	49	 
17	Regina_H.Milch	2648	-53	b 1/2 / 4	w 1/2 / 6	b 1/2 / 8	w 1/2 / 5	b 1/2 / 9	w 1/2 / 10	w 1/2 / 2	b 1/2 / 7	w 0 / 3		b 1/2 / 20	w 1/2 / 16	5.0 / 11	51.5	 
18	PublicEnemyN1	2557	-5	b 1/2 / 16	w 0 / 5		w 1 / 20	b 1/2 / 7	w 1/2 / 3	w 0 / 1		b 1/2 / 12	b 1/2 / 14	w 1/2 / 19	b 1/2 / 15	b 1/2 / 13	5.0 / 11	51	 
19	edward		2500	+54	b 1/2 / 8	w 1/2 / 14	b 1/2 / 4	w 1/2 / 11	b 1/2 / 15	w 1/2 / 13	b 1/2 / 16	w 0 / 20	b 1/2 / 18	w 0 / 12	b 1/2 / 9	4.5 / 11		 
20	OlivierEvan	2371	+11	b 1/2 / 5	w 1/2 / 16	b 0 / 18	w 0 / 2		b 1/2 / 13	w 1/2 / 12	w 1/2 / 14	b 0 / 19	w 1/2 / 15	w 1/2 / 17	b 1/2 / 11	4.0 / 11		 

As for the stalemates and material wins everyone was so concerned about, as I predicted, they had no effect on the prizes, which only went to the 5 players with a "win". There were too few of them and mostly not forced. Dovahkiin's looks flimsy (not going for the pin on the Bishop on the first chance) and Thomas_A_Anderson didn't exactly face the semi-slav against his d4. It can be safely assumed that something extra in the way of new rules will be implemented to avoid a tie all around (or backdoor deals on a sure thing).

* A couple of ChessLion's games weren't played in the tournament room. They are in the PGN, but without moves. Also, compared to the official list, one of the 5 games not played was agreed by Medusa as a draw, the rest are counted as a full point for Victorious, Farseer and ArKheiN. edward - OlivierEvan was 0-0 (both missing).

[Eduard]

I would like to say a big thank you to Arno Nickel! He did a great job in the tournament. He always kept the overview and the necessary control. He always helped every player in the chat and made interesting comments about the ongoing games. I can't imagine a better TD. So I want to encourage all chess players, check out our games and become a freestyler!

I would also like to thank my great chess friend Detlef Uter. He gave me a machine with 64 cores via ChessBase Cloud (with my desired configuration) and with access to all 7 men Syzygy (16 TB on his very fast SSDs).

I (account Solista) wasn't entirely happy with myself. I made in total 4 transmission errors from PC to PC in the tournament. In the important round 10, on move 8 and 9, two mistakes. I'm glad that it was still enough for a draw.

You can read my comments on Freestyle Chess here

https://solista-chess.jimdosite.com/freestyle-chess/

PGN rounds 1 to 7 can be downloaded. I will provide rounds 8 to 11 in the next few days.

[Ozymandias]

Are you the same person who's been grievously complaining and saying had enough of this tour? Has your account been hacked?

Win if you can. So far, no player has been able to win! Only two players were responsible for all defeats. One did not come to the game twice and the other used the tournament just to experiment. Those who fight really hard are unfortunately the fools of the tournament.

Feeling smarter now?

a stalemate with a naked king, I won't go along with it.

If I don't like these rules, then I don't have to play along.

And if the players learn this way of playing even better, then there will only be 100% draws and no more fun because everyone will play safely and without risk. I will not take part.

We already have 101 draws out of 101 played games. Goodbye then?

These new rules harm chess. They are confusing and do nothing to make the game more attractive. My engine games are more exciting.

We'll be watching those, I guess.