Chess grandmaster Hans Niemann sues champion Magnus Carlsen, others for $100 million over cheating claim

[mirek]

We'll see how it goes. Most elite tournaments will anyway not invite Niemann as long as he's around 2700.

If so then it seems like Magnus mostly didn't need to include that part about not playing with Niemann as he only plays elite tournaments.

[mirek]

No it's not, his point is that you currently need 2747 FIDE to be in top 10 or 2728 to be in top 20, so a 2700 FIDE player (without some special title like World's women's champ or World Junior or Rapid champ etc.) won't normally get invited to Elite tournaments. Niemann isn't yet at that level.

And yet "Crypto Cup Miami", "Generation Cup", "Sinquefield Cup", "Tata Steel 2023"
are all tournaments within a half year period that will/would exclude Niemann if they were to obey (retroactively if needed) by Carlsens wishes.

[lkaufman]

No it's not, his point is that you currently need 2747 FIDE to be in top 10 or 2728 to be in top 20, so a 2700 FIDE player (without some special title like World's women's champ or World Junior or Rapid champ etc.) won't normally get invited to Elite tournaments. Niemann isn't yet at that level.

And yet "Crypto Cup Miami", "Generation Cup", "Sinquefield Cup", "Tata Steel 2023"
are all tournaments within a half year period that will/would exclude Niemann if they were to obey (retroactively if needed) by Carlsens wishes.

The online events would presumably not invite him if they believe what chess.com has said about online cheating, nothing to do with Carlsen or OTB play. Sinquefield Cup invited him as a last minute replacement when Rapport couldn't attend, perhaps because he was available on short notice, he would not have been a likely choice normally based on his rating. He did get to play in the U.S. Championship, and most probably will be able to play in most or all OTB events that another 2700 level American player such as Xiong or Robson could play in. He probably won't get any wildcard invites, but there are very few OTB events in which Carlsen would play that would routinely invite a 2700 American player.

[Alexander Schmidt]

Of course you don't. It's actual real world data in a pretty solidly controlled environment.

Real world data with a deviation of +- 150/200 ELO. Neither of us can proof anything based on this. And even if you take this as a proof that he didn't cheat in the U.S.Championships, you can't proof that Niemann didn't cheat at the Sinquefield cup. Also a ELO 2700 player could try to cheat in a single game to beat the world champion. Niemann justified his cheating in the past with the attempt to get more popularity, so it would be logical to get help in a single game against the Champion.

Furthermore I didn't suggest Niemann cheated in the U.S.Championships, so there is simply nothing to discuss.

"there might be ways to chat despite those security measurements".[/color]..has finally convinced me (as it has at least one other here) that you have nothing to add to any discussion on the subject.

This is not only related to Niemann, you simply can't assume cheating is impossible because of a quite simple scan with a detector. It was discussed somewhere else here, how you could have tricked the measures at the U.S. Championship, you don't need much to trick this kind of scanner.

.has finally convinced me (as it has at least one other here) that you have nothing to add to any discussion on the subject. My fault for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Two of 3469 Members are convinced that I have nothing to add to the discussion. I don't care much.

But maybe you just still didn't get the point: You demand that all the stuff against Niemann can't be taken as a proof for OTB cheating. And if you would have read my comments more carefully, you would have seen, that I agree. My main point is, I demand the same for Carlsen. He and several other top players have the impression that Niemann cheated, and we have to take into consideration that they might be right. You try to proof, that Niemann did not cheat, but this is de facto impossible. If I point this out to you, it does not mean that I want to convince you of the opposite.

We should take this cheating topic really serious, especially with upcoming technologies there will be ways to cheat OTB. If we just wait until cheaters get caught red handed, chess will soon be like cycling.

[CornfedForever]

I only asked what you thought of the performance rating at the US Championship...NEVER said it was 'proof' of anything and have NEVER pointed to anything as saying it was 'proof' Hans was not cheating OTB. In a world where people are tying themselves in knots to produce 'meaningful' (or otherwise) statistics to implicate OTB cheating by Hans to inflate his rating, it does appear to be the best argument against it. Oh, and I NEVER said or suggested you might think Hans cheated at the US Championships...so I'm not sure why you even bring that up.

You also mention "Niemann justified his cheating in the past with the attempt to get more popularity, so it would be logical to get help in a single game against the Champion."
One could see that as merely a 'causal' or 'post hoc fallacy' (maybe even the ol' 'slippery slope' or 'faulty analogy' - if only because is clearly SO MUCH MORE DIFFICULT to cheat OTB compared to online)...to try to support a conclusion one might be trying to uphold - that Hans cheated OTB against Magnus. Something Magnus himself seems unable to present.

You mention only that a "simple scan with a detector" was used but are not taking into account.

1. These were upgraded scanner(s).
2. There was a 30 minute delay.
3. No guests were allowed
4. Cell phones and such were taken from every participant as they entered the playing site.
5. The games, I believe, are checked via various statistical methods for likelihood of cheating.

You keep repeating stock phrases like I "Don't get the point"...and that I "demand" this/that/the other....again, perhaps it's your use of the English language and why I've been deferential to some of the words until recently. You say these things apparently not seeming to realize that that I am on record here as saying I believe it's maybe as much as a 60/40 proposition that Hans has cheated OTB at some point but that this is simply NOT enough in my eyes to call him an 'OTB cheater' and cetainly not enough for Magnus to have done what he has.

Given newer, much more solid 'cheat prevention' at a tournament like the US Championship, we have more confidence in believing Hans current OTB strength actually correlates with his rating. With this new data, I (rightly, I think) push the needle more and more towards the belief that his rating is indeed 'what it is' and he has likely 'not cheated' to get his rating to where it now is. That is all. I mean, removing/vastly minimizing the likelihood of 'cheating' being responsible for the 2699 rating, the performance rating should reflect that with a corresponding dip. Some, the world over, who have put this forth now seem to forget they ever said it.

That Magnus has visited the sins of 'online cheaters' the world over upon Hans with reference to his OTB play against him is a serious thing (scapegoating, essentially) and something most all chess players agree is a dangerous thing for the strongest and most popular person in the history of the game to have done. This as he continues to play OTB against other admitted 'online cheaters'. Thus we have a lawsuit in addition to FIDE's admonishment of Magnus and various fallout resulting from Magnus' rather public words/actions. The integrity of OTB (in particular) play is one thing...but separate, as Magnus offers no evidence for the clear implications behind what he did and said...and that to my mind are the salient points in the whole discussion.

[Alexander Schmidt]

I only asked what you thought of the performance rating at the US Championship...NEVER said it was 'proof' of anything and have NEVER pointed to anything as saying it was 'proof' Hans was not cheating OTB.

It's likely your habit to take things out of context.

[syzygy]

... Most elite tournaments will anyway not invite Niemann as long as he's around 2700.

Thus one of the reasons for the lawsuit.

Not what I said. If you are at 2700 Elo, you do not get invited to most elite tournaments. Jorden van Foreest only gets to play in Wijk aan Zee and he gets to play there only because he is Dutch.

[syzygy]

... Most elite tournaments will anyway not invite Niemann as long as he's around 2700.

Thus one of the reasons for the lawsuit.

No it's not, his point is that you currently need 2747 FIDE to be in top 10 or 2728 to be in top 20, so a 2700 FIDE player (without some special title like World's women's champ or World Junior or Rapid champ etc.) won't normally get invited to Elite tournaments. Niemann isn't yet at that level.

TalkChess needs a like button

[Graham Banks]

... Most elite tournaments will anyway not invite Niemann as long as he's around 2700.

Thus one of the reasons for the lawsuit.

Not what I said. If you are at 2700 Elo, you do not get invited to most elite tournaments. Jorden van Foreest only gets to play in Wijk aan Zee and he gets to play there only because he is Dutch.

Yes - Larry pointed that out to me.

[syzygy]

Two of 3469 Members are convinced that I have nothing to add to the discussion. I don't care much.

You should sue him for $100 million