Komodo - Rybka in Danger?

[Uri Blass]

I can't even read RobboLito code myself, I'm not a programmer. I based my conclusion on an email from a reliable independent chess programmer (no connection to Don, me, or Rybka) who sent this king table he either found in or derived from an early Ippo version. He had no access to Rybka code himself, he just sent this info along. I compared it with my files of the values sent to Vas for R3, and the resemblance was startling. I didn't ask for other tables to compare, one was enough for me. It was also obvious to me that using Ippo (or later Robbo) for analysis generally produced evals extremely close to R3 in most situations, with rare exceptions. This should be equally obvious to anyone who compares them in analyzing many positions.
I could post the king table I submitted, but as I said I have no proof that it is actually in R3, I only know that Vas told me any time he made even the slightest changes to my terms or values, so I have no personal doubt on this point. So I'll leave it to others to post the relevant section from the R3 code if they wish to do so.
I don't claim that Robbo has taken the entire Rybka eval. Rather it seems that some parts may have been too difficult to decipher and were left out. So of course I won't post the whole eval even if I could prove it to be in R3.

The danger of "one was enough for me" is to compare rybka 1 beta table values to fruit's. More than one is enough there. BTW that has been done with direct disassembly of the piece/square table values. I don't remember the specifics now, but there is some material value difference between the two that requires some sort of multiplier. For example, stockfish uses P=256, so to convert to my pc/sq table values, one would need to multiply mine by 2.56 or divide the stockfish values by the same constant. But that doesn't make the values different, obviously, just duplicated and then scaled properly. I agree that duplicate tables would be a problem. But in both cases here (fruit/rybka 1 and robo/rybka3).

Larry also said the following:

"It was also obvious to me that using Ippo (or later Robbo) for analysis generally produced evals extremely close to R3 in most situations"

I think that it is possible to prove similiarity in this case

take(rybka,robbo,stockfish,Naum,Shredder,toga) and give them to analyze many random positions at small depth(rybka can get depth 1 when other programs get depth that they have similiar strength to rybka depth 1)

If the difference between Rybka and Robbo is significantly smaller than the difference between other pairs then it is going to be an evidence against robbo.

Uri

And since robo* seems to be testing at rybka + 70 elo or so, it is quite likely that in many positions they will be almost identical since they are so strong, while in a few others, they will be quite different due to that 70 elo difference. It is not so easy to compare that way. Pick the right positions and Crafty will appear to be a perfect clone of Rybka.

playing strength is not relevant here because I suggested comparing evaluation based on small depth searches when the small depth is based on similiar level to depth 1 of rybka(the closest that we can get)

Uri

[Uri Blass]

I can add that my last post is not relevant because it is even easier and it seems possible to compare direct evaluation results

It seems that somebody from the rybka forum reveresed engineered Rybka3 evaluation and compared it with the clones

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... pid=220911

Not sure if you can see this link and it may be only for part of the posters so here are the interesting results

The table below shows the median of the absolute value of the difference between evals from the six engines (centipawns):

1)1 2 4 R3 - RH scaled to 4.2
2)2 3 8 RH - RD scaled to 7.3
3)1 3 9 R3 - RD scaled to 7.7
4)1 4 13 R3 - IPP scaled to 14.6
5)2 4 14 RH - IPP scaled to 15.2
6)3 4 16 RD - IPP scaled to 17.2
7)4 6 26 IPP - Fruit scaled to 27.8
8)1 6 27 R3 - Fruit scaled to 29.0
9)2 6 28 RH - Fruit scaled to 29.7
10)3 6 29 RD - Fruit scaled to 30.2
11)1 5 120 R3 - SF scaled to 33.1
12)2 5 122 RH - SF scaled to 33.3
13)4 5 122 IPP - SF scaled to 35.7
14)3 5 127 RD - SF scaled to 36.8
15)5 6 113 SF - Fruit scaled to 46.3

You can see that stockfish has the most original evaluation.
The evaluation of IPP is closer to rybka more than similiarity between rybka and fruit.

It may be interesting to add rybka1 beta to the list.

Uri

[slobo]

It's not really like that. The issue is the underlying message that Vas is some of kind of lying fraud. Nobody want to talk directly about what is really being implied here, and instead wants to take little jabs and imply that Vas must be guilty of something because he is afraid to aggressively go after the cloners. He must be hiding something - he must be afraid or otherwise he would do that because we think he should. It's a government cover-up!

__He definitely falls into this category

I'm not speaking to those who really want to know the facts, which have already been clearly presented - I'm speaking to those who seem to have a need to dismiss or ignore the facts.

__What facts are you talking about,we haven't hear or say anything yet

I would also like to say that I don't know how I got sucked into this. I personally don't really care that much on a personal level there is nothing at stake for me - it's just that my own personal sense of justice is offended when I see someone get ripped off like Vas was, and this is followed up by character assassination cleverly disguised as concern for his well being.

__Vasik has drown himself into a moral cesspoll by lying to the clients and fans of Rybka by not releasing the Rybka 3+ and yes I am making my point for the 10 000 time already because I have the rihgt to recieve Rybka 3+ as an honest customer paid for his piece of software....

Vas may very well believe the code is stolen from him. Maybe he has very good reason to believe that. The nothing more than cursory investigations reported in this forum have yielded suspicions, but there frankly are too many questions. Maybe he jumped the gun. Maybe not.

It is reasonable and expected for people to protect their property. Did you know that?

I hope Vas will make his case. He has waited WAY TOO LONG. I have never seen a software company respond to stolen source like Rybka has.

Here's the typical thing to do. You go issue a press release and announce that your proprietary source code has been illegally pirated. You make a big deal about. If you do not want to show proof just then, because you may be doing further investigation, then you definitely want to announce that you have investigators (working with the police, etc.) vigorously investigating the matter to bring the thieves to justice.

To say the least Rybka is public relations disaster.

What would you say about Debb? Is he guilty of dirty allegations and would it help if we knew his real name? Could Vas make a case against Debb? Could you clarify his identity, name and address? I want to see if I can help in this case. Thanks.

Here's a question to ask... "Did the 'authors' of IPPOLIT and ROBOLITO disassemble Rybka 3, go over the source forward and backward, and 'take many things from it' or did they outright copy it?" Does that sound a little familiar???

Please, stop, Bob,
ha ha ha

Rolf will never notice that behind those very serious questions are also a great deal of humor.

[slobo]

It's not really like that. The issue is the underlying message that Vas is some of kind of lying fraud. Nobody want to talk directly about what is really being implied here, and instead wants to take little jabs and imply that Vas must be guilty of something because he is afraid to aggressively go after the cloners. He must be hiding something - he must be afraid or otherwise he would do that because we think he should. It's a government cover-up!

__He definitely falls into this category

I'm not speaking to those who really want to know the facts, which have already been clearly presented - I'm speaking to those who seem to have a need to dismiss or ignore the facts.

__What facts are you talking about,we haven't hear or say anything yet

I would also like to say that I don't know how I got sucked into this. I personally don't really care that much on a personal level there is nothing at stake for me - it's just that my own personal sense of justice is offended when I see someone get ripped off like Vas was, and this is followed up by character assassination cleverly disguised as concern for his well being.

__Vasik has drown himself into a moral cesspoll by lying to the clients and fans of Rybka by not releasing the Rybka 3+ and yes I am making my point for the 10 000 time already because I have the rihgt to recieve Rybka 3+ as an honest customer paid for his piece of software....

Vas may very well believe the code is stolen from him. Maybe he has very good reason to believe that. The nothing more than cursory investigations reported in this forum have yielded suspicions, but there frankly are too many questions. Maybe he jumped the gun. Maybe not.

It is reasonable and expected for people to protect their property. Did you know that?

I hope Vas will make his case. He has waited WAY TOO LONG. I have never seen a software company respond to stolen source like Rybka has.

Here's the typical thing to do. You go issue a press release and announce that your proprietary source code has been illegally pirated. You make a big deal about. If you do not want to show proof just then, because you may be doing further investigation, then you definitely want to announce that you have investigators (working with the police, etc.) vigorously investigating the matter to bring the thieves to justice.

To say the least Rybka is public relations disaster.

What would you say about Debb? Is he guilty of dirty allegations and would it help if we knew his real name? Could Vas make a case against Debb? Could you clarify his identity, name and address? I want to see if I can help in this case. Thanks.

Here's a question to ask... "Did the 'authors' of IPPOLIT and ROBOLITO disassemble Rybka 3, go over the source forward and backward, and 'take many things from it' or did they outright copy it?" Does that sound a little familiar???

In my eyes the "clones" under anon authorship were always made to intend a smear against Vas in the line you just described "didnt Vas do the same as these/we now??"

Vas is happy with his new project of online chess analyses institution for the many chessplayers, either professionals or amateurs. Americans and Russians.

*GENS UNA SUMUS*

Who, Rolf, "Gens una sumus"?


You and Vas?