Rybka 1.0 vs. Strelka

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderator: Ras

Uri Blass
Posts: 10790
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Uri Blass »

tiger wrote:Zach is showing code snippets where Rybka 1.0 is actually more similar to Fruit than Strelka 2.0.

A few days ago there was some vocal opposition to the idea that Rybka 1.0 coud be a derived work of Fruit 2.1.

Where is the opposition now?

There are several skilled people ready to explain why many programmers think (without daring to tell it) that Rybka started its life as Fruit 2.1.

The evidence is now being shown factually. Feel free to contradict it factually.



// Christophe
There is a second possibility that rybka started her life with part of fruit but never had the full source.

I know that movei started its life with part of tscp structures and names of variables and constants (but no chess working code)

Uri
Terry McCracken
Posts: 16465
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:16 am
Location: Canada

Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Terry McCracken »

tiger wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
tiger wrote:Zach is showing code snippets where Rybka 1.0 is actually more similar to Fruit than Strelka 2.0.

A few days ago there was some vocal opposition to the idea that Rybka 1.0 coud be a derived work of Fruit 2.1.

Where is the opposition now?

There are several skilled people ready to explain why many programmers think (without daring to tell it) that Rybka started its life as Fruit 2.1.

The evidence is now being shown factually. Feel free to contradict it factually.


// Christophe

Truthfully, I thought that was common knowledge. This forum never fails to surprise me.

Although my day suspension without warning or explanation wasn't too surprising, not with this team...

Treading on Eggshells...

Terry


The fact that Rybka 1.0 is derived from Fruit 2.1 is a common opinion amongst programmers, especially since the reconstructed source code of Rybka 1.0 has been published (it is Strelka 2.0).

For some reason this fact has remained such a taboo that very few established programmers have dared to state clearly their opinion about it.

Now evidence is posted here for everybody to build his own opinion.

The important point to keep in mind is that if the evidence is considered as convincing it will demonstrate that an open source program has been used against the spirit of open source.

More specifically, the evidence is posted to show that a work derived from GPL'ed source code has been published as closed source, when the spirit of the GPL licence under which the original work was published is to always allow the source code to be kept open and shared. It is not only against the spirit, it is also explicitely forbidden by the GPL licence, which is the licence the author of the original work has chosen.



// Christophe
I agree, but I won't say more in fear of my account being frozen.

Catch 22 Regards,
Terry
User avatar
tiger
Posts: 819
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:15 am
Location: Guadeloupe (french caribbean island)

Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by tiger »

Uri Blass wrote:
tiger wrote:Zach is showing code snippets where Rybka 1.0 is actually more similar to Fruit than Strelka 2.0.

A few days ago there was some vocal opposition to the idea that Rybka 1.0 coud be a derived work of Fruit 2.1.

Where is the opposition now?

There are several skilled people ready to explain why many programmers think (without daring to tell it) that Rybka started its life as Fruit 2.1.

The evidence is now being shown factually. Feel free to contradict it factually.



// Christophe
There is a second possibility that rybka started her life with part of fruit but never had the full source.

I know that movei started its life with part of tscp structures and names of variables and constants (but no chess working code)

Uri


This possibility would also make Rybka 1.0 a derived work of Fruit 2.1.



// Christophe
User avatar
Rolf
Posts: 6081
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:14 pm
Location: Munster, Nuremberg, Princeton

Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Rolf »

tiger wrote: The fact that Rybka 1.0 is derived from Fruit 2.1 is a common opinion amongst programmers, especially since the reconstructed source code of Rybka 1.0 has been published (it is Strelka 2.0).

For some reason this fact has remained such a taboo that very few established programmers have dared to state clearly their opinion about it.

Now evidence is posted here for everybody to build his own opinion.

The important point to keep in mind is that if the evidence is considered as convincing it will demonstrate that an open source program has been used against the spirit of open source.

More specifically, the evidence is posted to show that a work derived from GPL'ed source code has been published as closed source, when the spirit of the GPL licence under which the original work was published is to always allow the source code to be kept open and shared. It is not only against the spirit, it is also explicitely forbidden by the GPL licence, which is the licence the author of the original work has chosen.

// Christophe
Often something shows only indirectly that and why it's worthless. And this is the case with this whole message.

Here a programmer, experienced technically as he might be, I can only trust Bob regarding this point, is talking too much about showing, forbidden, published, but also about spirit, taboo, opinion and fact, and all what he shows with all this is that he has nothing.

Because if it were different, this would mean a court case. Because only this could legally prove anything. While this here is a political campaign from a tech knowie programmer who cant find the linkage from his tech to what he's really doing and implying on a social and psychological level.

It's also important to remember, that messages like mine here must be carefully pronounced because other than the tech knowie who is allowed of the whole shameful campaign against other collegues in computerchess it is almost tabooed if it's described and criticised from an expert in psychological and sociological terms. As if the community couldnt understand that a tech knowie level by definition is sub-optimal to analyse itself for the positivistic reasons which can be learned elsewhere. If you want to criticise such a limited tech sphere there is but one possibility and that is from outside so to speak with social psychology.

Just to summarize what that angle allows me to conclude. The many professionals weho have read of the CT campaign cant want to openly enter such a debate because to a community with a rest of ethical considerations it would look strange if people raise their fingers and point on a scapegoat for a practice that they themselves are potentially also guilty of. At least that then their own work would be questioned.

That context is so trivial and easy to understand that it really takes a tech knowie wih a very resticted view, one could call it 1-dimensional somewhat, who continues to propagate his limited perception. Not only that, he's now already on the lane where he thinks he can trust the deafening silence frfom his collegues as if that would mean that his restrictions have not yet been widely noticed. So here we have a clear aspect of tragical comedy content.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
Terry McCracken
Posts: 16465
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:16 am
Location: Canada

Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Terry McCracken »

I reported your post...you've overstepped your bounds!

You don't have a clue about programming or computer programs. If you did you wouldn't have written any of this nonsense.

Read the source codes...you can't. So you've nothing intelligent to say other than to attack an expert in the feild of chess programming with an impeccable record I might add, whose expertise makes your drivel all the more foolish.

IOWS if you don't know what you're talking about, don't say a word! Defaming Christophe is about as low as you can go here Rolf, enough!

Also get this straight, it has nothing to do with contempt or jealousy over Rybka, if Christophe used the same technique as Vas or any top programmer the gap between not only Vasik's program but all chess programs would be negligible.

Maybe all the top programmers should cooperate and create a masterpiece!?

Although that would end their individual careers as independent chess programmers.

I grow weary of this Rolf, and I'm not the only one.
Uri Blass
Posts: 10790
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Uri Blass »

Terry McCracken wrote:

Also get this straight, it has nothing to do with contempt or jealousy over Rybka, if Christophe used the same technique as Vas or any top programmer the gap between not only Vasik's program but all chess programs would be negligible.
I disagree with the assumption that the gap between all chess program is going to be negligible in that case.

The only correct thing is that in this case programs are going to be stronger.

Uri
User avatar
Rolf
Posts: 6081
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:14 pm
Location: Munster, Nuremberg, Princeton

Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Rolf »

Learn to read and forget about childish anger, I wrote "At least that then their own work would be questioned."

At least Vas has never denied that he was inspired by ideas in Fruit in the beginning. What do you in special can know about what other professionals might have done? :lol:
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
User avatar
Rolf
Posts: 6081
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 11:14 pm
Location: Munster, Nuremberg, Princeton

Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Rolf »

Uri Blass wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:

Also get this straight, it has nothing to do with contempt or jealousy over Rybka, if Christophe used the same technique as Vas or any top programmer the gap between not only Vasik's program but all chess programs would be negligible.
I disagree with the assumption that the gap between all chess program is going to be negligible in that case.

The only correct thing is that in this case programs are going to be stronger.

Uri

They ARE stronger, Uri. What is known about the actual strength of the known top programs if one assumes theoretically that Fruit did never exist? Why cant we state that there is a time ante and post Fruit ideas of programming? I simply dont support the campaign here that ONLY Vas has been inspired by Fabien's Fruit ideas.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
Steve B
Posts: 3697
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:26 pm

Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Steve B »

tiger wrote:
More specifically, the evidence is posted to show that a work derived from GPL'ed source code has been published as closed source, when the spirit of the GPL licence under which the original work was published is to always allow the source code to be kept open and shared. It is not only against the spirit, it is also explicitely forbidden by the GPL licence, which is the licence the author of the original work has chosen.
// Christophe
let us suppose for discussion purposes that engine B(a closed commercially sold product) is derived from Engine A which is an open program released under the GPL Licence
what recourse is there and to whom can this charge be directed ?
must the author of Engine A make the charge?
can others make the claim for him?
suppose author A no longer cares about his work or is deceased?
can Author A give private permission to author B to continue his work commercially?

i am asking because i do not know if there is any group or persons responsible to insure that GPL licenses are respected
if there is no one to register a complaint with,, then all we have here .. in my hypothetical example ..is a violation of the Spirit of a licence with no legal recourse..
other then universal condemnation from other programmers in public and private forums ..it would seem that in this case.. one is free to take for his own, the work of others and sell it in the open market

again i am posing a hypothetical question ..a worst case scenario

Steve
Uri Blass
Posts: 10790
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Wanted: some opposition to the provided evidence

Post by Uri Blass »

Rolf wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:

Also get this straight, it has nothing to do with contempt or jealousy over Rybka, if Christophe used the same technique as Vas or any top programmer the gap between not only Vasik's program but all chess programs would be negligible.
I disagree with the assumption that the gap between all chess program is going to be negligible in that case.

The only correct thing is that in this case programs are going to be stronger.

Uri

They ARE stronger, Uri. What is known about the actual strength of the known top programs if one assumes theoretically that Fruit did never exist? Why cant we state that there is a time ante and post Fruit ideas of programming? I simply dont support the campaign here that ONLY Vas has been inspired by Fabien's Fruit ideas.
I agree that not only Vas was inspired by Fabien's Fruit ideas.
The point is not fruit's idea but fruit's code and there is a difference between using fruit's code and using fruit's ideas.

My point is that even if all programmers use fruit's code there is going to be significant difference between playing strength of different programs.

Uri