Thoughts...

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

1) Vas is a integer character who never lied.

Then he is quite unique on the world

Do you know him very well? Is he liveing in your neighbourhood?

For a certin circle of people,Vas has the status of a God,you listen and you believe,no questions asked....
Dr.D

[George Tsavdaris]

Ippolit is not just a decompiled Rybka, thats a fact.

For being legal it may not be enough to just not be a decompiled Rybka 3.

Having even small parts of code from Rybka 3 after a reverse engineering of Rybka 3 is still illegal.

[bob]

Ippolit is not just a decompiled Rybka, thats a fact.

For being legal it may not be enough to just not be a decompiled Rybka 3.

Having even small parts of code from Rybka 3 after a reverse engineering of Rybka 3 is still illegal.

Maybe not. If R3 still has parts of fruit in it, which R1 certainly does, then R3 is open-source as well. So it isn't nearly so clear as one might think.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Thoughts?

I agree with a single idea in your post and that is the fact that commercials like Fritz, Junior, Shredder etc. never were reverse engineered like Rybka. The only reason for that fact is that all the above have money behind them (ChessBase money) while Rybka is such a pain in the ___ of the antique former winner guys that it's blew their minds and made them believe that Rybka must be a cheat (from Fruit) because how otherwise someone could have found something they all had missed for years.

Tiger author Theron once wrote here in CCC that if he would forget about morals and would steal from Fruit then he could achive the same what Rajlich had achieved, but he, Theron, would have morals... When that had appeared I was outraged because of the unproven dirt. It has never been proven since then and Vas never was taken to court for anything.

Again, also then Theron never was interested in Fritz or Junior. So you ask a bit for too much if you claim now that therefore also your I____ should remain alive.

The reason why decent people in the community condemned these clones,

1) Vas is a integer character who never lied or pretended sonmething false

2) The evil of such inventions like Strelka or others is NOT only the clone stuff, it's that then this was published open in public so that more and more the secrets of Vas code became known. NB that the code of Fritz and others never was mistreated this way. You criticise it but the reason is money.

3) The talents who mistreat Rybka all along do not plan to have their own product in championships or tests, the sole purpose is the mistreatment of Rybka and its author. Unfortunately a lot of famous guys in CCC have helped that sort of campaign and I was among a few who criticised that from its beginning.

After 5 years to me it seems as if Rajlich is a saint because he's smart, but others are also smart, but he has the morals, the ethics and the philosophy to take such negative incidents with the patience of a wise monk who doesnt want to let himself be disturbed in pursuing his own path.

A couple of questions. Why do you need to bring Theron's name into the discussion? He has not participated in this thread. Why do you want to continue to praise Vas as a victimized saint? There is no doubt that parts of fruit are in Rybka 1. Absolutely no doubt. Whether they remain in R2 and R3 (or even R4) is a guess, but not for R1. And that is certainly something that is not considered reasonable.

How about contributing positive stuff, or else not contributing at all, so that our moderator email doesn't get choked up with complaints about your posts? You rehash either the rybka/fruit issue, or the deep blue issue, over and over and over. Rybka/Fruit genie is out of the bottle. Time to move on. Deep Blue hasn't existed for 12 years now. Time to move on there as well. Your continual complaints are not going to change either of those situations.

See,it's becoming a religion....Rybkayanity
You are unbelievable to say the least....
Dr.D

[Osipov Jury]

Ippolit is not just a decompiled Rybka, thats a fact.

Yes, it's true. It is easy to prove.

If VR said this, he is wrong.

He is not wrong. He did not tell the truth.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Ippolit is not just a decompiled Rybka, thats a fact.

Yes, it's true. It is easy to prove.

If VR said this, he is wrong.

He is not wrong. He did not tell the truth.

Vasik is losing the ground under his feet....so he's forced not to tell the truth....his silence says it all...

Anyway,in less than a year,Rybka will not be the major subject in the computer chess world,so why bother to debate
Dr.D

[George Tsavdaris]

I am not a native english speaker. I mean it will make future chessprogramms stronger.

I am not a native English speaker either. I know what you meant, and I meant the opposite. Reverse engineering of engines is not progress, it will hurt.

Hurt who? Computer chess by means of engine's strength and evolution? No way.
Perhaps the reverse engineering will show some good unknown ideas that will help other programmers to improve their programs. But even if no new ideas are found there will be no hurt.

Hurt Vasik? Probably.

Hurt who? Computer chess generally? Maybe.

I am curious, how do you know Robinhoodito is 70 elo points stronger than Rybka? I saw mentioned this but I have not seen any serious match posted here.

I will post some in about 3 days when i'll return.

So far i have with different opening sets and with 4'+2" time controls: +39, +36, +83, +112, +38, +78 ELO points the Robbolito 0.085d3 w32 1 CPU being stronger than Rybka 3 w32 1 CPU.

At 1'+1" time controls with different opening sets: +84, -17(yes minus), +12, +44 ELO points, Robbolito 0.085d3 w32 1 CPU is being stronger than Rybka 3 w32 1 CPU.

Not very stable results. Most games are with opening sets of Noomen2008, Silver50, Nunn, Nunn2 and some mine.

[Graham Banks]

Ippolit is not just a decompiled Rybka, thats a fact.

Yes, it's true. It is easy to prove.

If VR said this, he is wrong.

He is not wrong. He did not tell the truth.

Hi Jury,

could you please tell us more?

Cheers,
Graham.

[George Tsavdaris]

Ippolit is not just a decompiled Rybka, thats a fact.

For being legal it may not be enough to just not be a decompiled Rybka 3.

Having even small parts of code from Rybka 3 after a reverse engineering of Rybka 3 is still illegal.

Maybe not. If R3 still has parts of fruit in it, which R1 certainly does, then R3 is open-source as well. So it isn't nearly so clear as one might think.

So we may reverse engineer Rybka 3 and Rybka 4 etc or even distribute the executable of it freely with no legal problems just because Rybka 3 may have parts of Fruit code inside?

I know you didn't say that, but one can extend your logic to get this.


Really the logic is simple: If Robbolito/Ippolit has come from Rybka's 3 code with just some changes, then since R1 had some code of Fruit inside so it's open-source and since Rybka 3 may have this same code inside so it may be open-source too and then Robbolito may have this code too to it may be open-source too with full GPL license.

But by noticing that this "may have" can be applied to other future programs too, now that the probable open-source Robbolito has appeared, we can perfectly say the following to all engines from now on:

Hiarcs 13 may be open-source program so we may reverse engineer it freely.
Shredder 13 may be open-source program so we may reverse engineer it freely.
Fritz 13 may be open-source program so we may reverse engineer it freely.
Etc....

So all programs are suspects now, that the possible open-source of Robbolito has appeared, that came from the possible open-source Rybka 3, that came from open-source Rybka 1, that came form open-source Fruit.

[Osipov Jury]

Ippolit is not just a decompiled Rybka, thats a fact.

Yes, it's true. It is easy to prove.

If VR said this, he is wrong.

He is not wrong. He did not tell the truth.

Hi Jury,

could you please tell us more?

Cheers,
Graham.

For a more detailed explanation I should:
1. Show comparison of the sources of Ippolit and Rybka 3.
2. Clarify the technical details of decompilation.
3. Show the impossibility of obtaining source code of Ippolit from binary code of Rybka.

It is very difficult and long. And the main thing - it is incorrect to the author of Rybka.