Igca Rules are not coming from Mount Sinai

[fern]

Maybe you does not know enough Bob Hyatt. Maybe You are presuming too much. You are guessing this or that feeling. Not fair.

Fern

[Terry McCracken]

Maybe you does not know enough Bob Hyatt. Maybe You are presuming too much. You are guessing this or that feeling. Not fair.

Fern

But you do?

[Rebel]

If the Igca rules were to prevail in everything, scientific research would stop. Everything developed in every area comes from the use of previous materiel... To claim the obligation to reinvent the wheel each time, once and again, is preposterous.
Igca can establish the rules they wish for his competitions, but they have not moral or juridical weight, exception made of extreme cases of sheer copying.
To make of those rules kind of a divine decree is pedantic and sterile.
In fact, it is clear that it has been with all this supposed or real cloning, copying, codes stolen or lent, etc that the field has advanced at great steps these last three years after a lapse of comparative slowness and even stagnation.
Of course we have people that feel they have been hurt in his rights, and some times it has been so, but the progress is there to all to see.
Technological advance never has been a 100% clean affair regards
Fern

Good post old friend. With Dylan, times are changing but not everybody is willing to change. A quote from my Rybka-ICGA report:

The current situation anno 2011 is comparable with the year is 2020. Schoolbooks do not longer exists. Kids do not have to carry a bag full of heavy books to school any longer. The only thing children every morning take to school is their 10 inch tablet which has everything in it. Technology has replaced the old paradigm of schoolbooks. And the old paradigm folks are whining, all our stuff has been plagiarized. Of course in court they are without chance but when the old paradigm folks start to play the game of judge and jury themselves the outcome may differ.

Technology has changed the world ever since it made its entree and computer chess is not excused from that. Internet and its freely downloadable chess sources have changed the CC world once and for all. The old paradigm is gone and it's old rules don't work any longer, the new paradigm needs new rules.

http://www.top-5000.nl/rule2.htm

[bob]

[No, what they said was "you (Vas) have to follow the same rules WE have followed for these many years of ICGA tournament competition." Nothing more, nothing less. I've pointed out many others that dominated for a period of time, at least 2 that dominated far longer than Vas (deep blue and chess 3.x/4.x). And then there was a period of time when Genius was supreme, then Fritz, then Shredder... And yet no one was "jealous" of any of those and accused them of cheating. Food for thought...

The guy who invented the sawing machine had his factory destroyed because he was going to ruin the hand sewing industry that had been the standard in the past, where each garment was a unique product. Because he didn't follow the same rules that THEY had followed for all the many years. Nothing more, nothing less.

A murder suspect could say in self defence: "I went to school for many years and never murdered any of my class mates even when they annoyed me. I worked for years and never murdered any of my workmates, some of whom pissed me off. Why now do you suggest I murdered my wife's boy friend? food for thought"

I suspect the comment is simply "over your head". Please explain why none of "us" complained when chess 3.x/4.x dominated computer chess for 10 years, ditto for deep blue for 10 years. Nor genius/shredder/fritz which had multi-year runs themselves. Yet we took issue ONLY with Rybka and after a thorough investigation proved code was copied, the ICGA took punative action. Why "only Rybka"? Perhaps because it was the ONLY one suspected of copying code and then this was proved?

right...

Maybe because you had real hope of improving Crafty back then and there was no need to fight outside the ring so to speak? Maybe because there where no Roberto Pescatores with the zeal to reverse engineer those programs for you back then? Maybe because those authors were your peers unlike this kid Vas who came from the blues to steal your thunder and leave you guys in the dust? Try and remember Bob.

I work on Crafty regularly. And it is improving. Without copying the code of others. I knew I was not going to catch deep thought / deep blue, as I understood their hardware advantage and how no general-purpose computer was going to catch up for MANY years.

This is not about jealousy. That is just your stupidity showing up...

There is an aspect of competition that is actually about competing. And the sense of self-satisfaction one obtains using one's own work, even if you don't win... You probably won't understand that. Some of us do...

[bob]

If the Igca rules were to prevail in everything, scientific research would stop. Everything developed in every area comes from the use of previous materiel... To claim the obligation to reinvent the wheel each time, once and again, is preposterous.
Igca can establish the rules they wish for his competitions, but they have not moral or juridical weight, exception made of extreme cases of sheer copying.
To make of those rules kind of a divine decree is pedantic and sterile.
In fact, it is clear that it has been with all this supposed or real cloning, copying, codes stolen or lent, etc that the field has advanced at great steps these last three years after a lapse of comparative slowness and even stagnation.
Of course we have people that feel they have been hurt in his rights, and some times it has been so, but the progress is there to all to see.
Technological advance never has been a 100% clean affair regards
Fern

Good post old friend. With Dylan, times are changing but not everybody is willing to change. A quote from my Rybka-ICGA report:

The current situation anno 2011 is comparable with the year is 2020. Schoolbooks do not longer exists. Kids do not have to carry a bag full of heavy books to school any longer. The only thing children every morning take to school is their 10 inch tablet which has everything in it. Technology has replaced the old paradigm of schoolbooks. And the old paradigm folks are whining, all our stuff has been plagiarized. Of course in court they are without chance but when the old paradigm folks start to play the game of judge and jury themselves the outcome may differ.

Technology has changed the world ever since it made its entree and computer chess is not excused from that. Internet and its freely downloadable chess sources have changed the CC world once and for all. The old paradigm is gone and it's old rules don't work any longer, the new paradigm needs new rules.

http://www.top-5000.nl/rule2.htm

Is that rambling explanation supposed to have any point? An amazon kindle or Barnes-Noble nook? You DO have to purchase books for them. You just don't have to deal with paper.

What ARE you trying to say? Replacing books with e-readers is not going to change copyright law, nor book sales, except that the delivery process has been changed, and you can carry your books in a more compact fashion. But nothing else has changed at all.

[fern]

Me? Where? When?

Fern

[Lusakan]

I work on Crafty regularly. And it is improving. Without copying the code of others. I knew I was not going to catch deep thought / deep blue, as I understood their hardware advantage and how no general-purpose computer was going to catch up for MANY years.

This is not about jealousy. That is just your stupidity showing up...

There is an aspect of competition that is actually about competing. And the sense of self-satisfaction one obtains using one's own work, even if you don't win... You probably won't understand that. Some of us do...

Yeh sure, you have worked hard and long on Crafty, for years,, but it is not improving fast enough for some of us. Can't you see the huge gap between your ego and presumed technical stature on one hand and the stunted position of Crafty in the computer chess world on the other?

My stupidity is not intentional. It is only that, knowing how smart you are, it is hard to find a none stupid reason why you prefer technical stagnation to progress. Each and every one of your posts shows that computer chess progress is of zero value to you and originality is everything. You are taking this one dimenational position in this modular era where to make a computer you don't need to design each IC yourself. For most of us if you put together ICs and create something that is superior to what was there before that is progress. Every honest effort to find a rational explanation why you derive self satisfaction from defending an outdated craftsman approach to computer programming compounds my stupidity, and I dont like this.

[Rebel]

If the Igca rules were to prevail in everything, scientific research would stop. Everything developed in every area comes from the use of previous materiel... To claim the obligation to reinvent the wheel each time, once and again, is preposterous.
Igca can establish the rules they wish for his competitions, but they have not moral or juridical weight, exception made of extreme cases of sheer copying.
To make of those rules kind of a divine decree is pedantic and sterile.
In fact, it is clear that it has been with all this supposed or real cloning, copying, codes stolen or lent, etc that the field has advanced at great steps these last three years after a lapse of comparative slowness and even stagnation.
Of course we have people that feel they have been hurt in his rights, and some times it has been so, but the progress is there to all to see.
Technological advance never has been a 100% clean affair regards
Fern

Good post old friend. With Dylan, times are changing but not everybody is willing to change. A quote from my Rybka-ICGA report:

The current situation anno 2011 is comparable with the year is 2020. Schoolbooks do not longer exists. Kids do not have to carry a bag full of heavy books to school any longer. The only thing children every morning take to school is their 10 inch tablet which has everything in it. Technology has replaced the old paradigm of schoolbooks. And the old paradigm folks are whining, all our stuff has been plagiarized. Of course in court they are without chance but when the old paradigm folks start to play the game of judge and jury themselves the outcome may differ.

Technology has changed the world ever since it made its entree and computer chess is not excused from that. Internet and its freely downloadable chess sources have changed the CC world once and for all. The old paradigm is gone and it's old rules don't work any longer, the new paradigm needs new rules.

http://www.top-5000.nl/rule2.htm

Is that rambling explanation supposed to have any point? An amazon kindle or Barnes-Noble nook? You DO have to purchase books for them. You just don't have to deal with paper.

What ARE you trying to say? Replacing books with e-readers is not going to change copyright law, nor book sales, except that the delivery process has been changed, and you can carry your books in a more compact fashion. But nothing else has changed at all.

That you fight a lost battle like the music and video industry. You can't beat the clones with old rules not fit to stand the pressure anno 2011. That is better to do something now that you still have influence then to wait the problem to grow above your head and then realize you have lost with no influence at all.

It's a matter of vision. But if you want to live in the pre-internet past go ahead. It's mainly the old 80's and 90's generation that want to put their head in the sand.

[hgm]

It's a matter of vision. But if you want to live in the pre-internet past go ahead. It's mainly the old 80's and 90's generation that want to put their head in the sand.

So you are in favor of allowing marathon 'runners' to take the bus to the closest stop near the finish, and only run from there, all in the name of progress? The IOC is just putting their head in the sand obliging them to run that distance?

[Rebel]

It's a matter of vision. But if you want to live in the pre-internet past go ahead. It's mainly the old 80's and 90's generation that want to put their head in the sand.

So you are in favor of allowing marathon 'runners' to take the bus to the closest stop near the finish, and only run from there, all in the name of progress? The IOC is just putting their head in the sand obliging them to run that distance?

I wrote the below elsewhere and I did not change my mind overnight.

------------------------------

> The madness will pass. It may take a decade, but it will pass.

Absolutely.

It's mainly the old 80's and 90's generation that tries to stop the future and has become an obstacle to progress. But time is not on their side. They get older. Eventually the new generation of programmers will take over, as it should. And there will be new rules for fair play.

I understand the pain of the old 80's and 90's generation as I belong to that. I have put 25 years of hard work in my engine and the thought any newbie can download source code that is 300 elo points stronger than mine, make a few changes and call it his own is something hard to shallow up to the point of total disgust.

But... if there is anything positive about the Rybka-ICGA fiasco it's the created awareness that it is time for a radical change of the rules of fair play without limiting the creative minds of the post-internet generation of chess programmers like Houdart, Vida, Romstad etc. I chose progress above my hurt -300 elo ego.