I NEED HELP With This Question

[Sedat Canbaz]

Just rather how most people seem to be testing it.

Does not matter in engine-engine matches.

The built-in DB contains some well known test positions which you have almost zero chance to encounter in real games.

Dear Richard,

It seems, you hacked Strelka 5.5 or maybe you have permission by Jury Osipov ?!

As far as i know, Strelka 5.5 was released as closed source engine

So i wonder, have you looked in other chess engines too,i mean about other engines include similar database ?

Btw,i wonder too...how many chess programmers (exception you) are looking (coping,learning,deleting,renaming...) in the others engine.exe files work ?

All this work is legal ?


Best,
Sedat

AMEN TO THAT!- You damn right, Sedat. They have no business disabling anything in another author's engine. I didn't hear God took a vacation and left Richard in charge.

gts

Thanks dear George !

Unfortunately,nowadays there are some programers,who are busy more regarding on:
- Which chess engine is a original,which one is a clone
- They claim that theirs work is 100 % original,where the rest Top engines are clones,e.g Ippo,Strelka,Rybka,Houdini...
- It seems,instead on improving and adding more Elo over their engines,they spend more time to camouflage their own code to be looks like as original


Btw,my BIG admirations to:
- Robert Houdart,who created the current world's strongest engine - Houdini
- Vasik Rajlich (the author of Rybka),who shocked the world for almost 6 years with amazing chess engine performance

And last:
-I have no patience to see a new engine,which will be at least 50 Elo points stronger than Houdini



Best Wishes,
Sedat

[geots]

Dan, with the book issue- the same generic book has to be used for both engines. I am there no longer, but if I remember correctly, with an engine having an internal book inside the exe that could not be disabled- there was no way to be sure how much of its own book it was using- or if any- how far.

Hi George,

As long as the engine follows protocol it won't use any moves from it's book as long as the gui is feeding it book moves. Once the gui book runs out then the engine is on it's own to pick a move. There are two ways for the engine to do this:

(1) It recognizes the position and has moves to employ. This could be the case with a position database like Strelka or an engine with it's own book.

(2) It goes to its search.

The situation with Strelka and an engine with its own book are identical. That's why I find it odd that you have no problem with Strelka's database but you seem to have an issue with a book database.

Best
Dan H.

Dan, you are missing my point completely. Hold on- it is probably my fault. Let me try once to do it better. Get with Kirill, Ray or Adam and discuss the book issue as it pertains to CCRL. He and you could have a good discussion, because they knows things I don't- when one overrides another, etc. I was giving you the rules they go by. (And by the way I in no way say they are doing anything untoward in testing 5.5. I hope I did not give the impression otherwise.)

Stay with me just another minute, Dan. With my respect for you- it is important to me that I don't confuse you. Now to Strelka 5.5. There will invariably be people who will think Strelka 5.5 is ok with the database of moves, and those who don't. It has never been my contention that I have a problem with any people who don't agree with what I think. BUT, MY PROBLEM IS WHEN THOSE THAT DON'T THINK IT IS FAIR OR LEGAL actually without permission from the author go into the engine and disable the database of moves. NEVER should that be done. If they don't think it is fair, then they can disregard the engine, and not use it or test it. But to disable the moves, then give the engine back to someone and say it is ok to use now- only one thing is more reprehensible than that. And that is trying to defend your position with silly analogies that are a slap in the face to anyone with a brain.

If you still are talking that with an engine that has an internal book that because of that- CCRL doesn't test it having anything to do with the Strelka issue- really do talk to a CCRL member. I am no longer one.



Your friend,

george

[Dan Honeycutt]

Dan, you are missing my point completely. Hold on- it is probably my fault. Let me try once to do it better. Get with Kirill, Ray or Adam and discuss the book issue as it pertains to CCRL. He and you could have a good discussion, because they knows things I don't- when one overrides another, etc. I was giving you the rules they go by. (And by the way I in no way say they are doing anything untoward in testing 5.5. I hope I did not give the impression otherwise.)

Stay with me just another minute, Dan. With my respect for you- it is important to me that I don't confuse you. Now to Strelka 5.5. There will invariably be people who will think Strelka 5.5 is ok with the database of moves, and those who don't. It has never been my contention that I have a problem with any people who don't agree with what I think. BUT, MY PROBLEM IS WHEN THOSE THAT DON'T THINK IT IS FAIR OR LEGAL actually without permission from the author go into the engine and disable the database of moves. NEVER should that be done. If they don't think it is fair, then they can disregard the engine, and not use it or test it. But to disable the moves, then give the engine back to someone and say it is ok to use now- only one thing is more reprehensible than that. And that is trying to defend your position with silly analogies that are a slap in the face to anyone with a brain.

If you still are talking that with an engine that has an internal book that because of that- CCRL doesn't test it having anything to do with the Strelka issue- really do talk to a CCRL member. I am no longer one.



Your friend,

george

Hi George,

I understand what you're saying. If something comes with the engine, don't screw with it. If you think it gives the engine an unfair advantage then don't test it. No argument from me on that.

My engine, Bruja, has a built-in book. For a while CCRL wouldn't test it. I never was sure exactly why. It might be that they thought the built-in book would somehow conflict with the book chosen for the test matches. As I noted above, that won't happen. Or, they might have thought that it gave me an unfair advantage. I explained to Graham that my book was small (less than a thousand positions) shallow but fairly wide. The purpose was not really to increase strength but to allow me to run engine matches without a lot of duplicates. If CCRL used a book of any size it would dwarf mine and the instances where Bruja actually played a move from its book would be few and far between. Graham said ok and they began testing Bruja.

As I said, I was never sure what the issue was. If it was a question of unfair advantage then they should not test Strelka. I thought you, having been a member, might know what the deal was. Maybe one of them will happen upon this and shed some light.

Best
Dan H.

[Graham Banks]

My engine, Bruja, has a built-in book. For a while CCRL wouldn't test it. I never was sure exactly why. It might be that they thought the built-in book would somehow conflict with the book chosen for the test matches. As I noted above, that won't happen. Or, they might have thought that it gave me an unfair advantage. I explained to Graham that my book was small (less than a thousand positions) shallow but fairly wide. The purpose was not really to increase strength but to allow me to run engine matches without a lot of duplicates. If CCRL used a book of any size it would dwarf mine and the instances where Bruja actually played a move from its book would be few and far between. Graham said ok and they began testing Bruja.

From the Bruja.ini file (note that I've disabled the internal opening book, which is why I was able to test Bruja):

;book ##
;selects bruja internal opening book
book 0
;0 = don't use
;1 = use

[Adam Hair]

Bruja is labelled this way in the CCRL 40/4 lists:

Bruja 1.9 64-bit JA No-int-book

The copy I use is a Jim Ablett compile, still available from his site. While the .ini file with my copy makes no mention of the book, it is labelled as having no book. There is actually a second copy in Jim's download that is labelled as having an internal book.

[geots]

Bruja is labelled this way in the CCRL 40/4 lists:

Bruja 1.9 64-bit JA No-int-book

The copy I use is a Jim Ablett compile, still available from his site. While the .ini file with my copy makes no mention of the book, it is labelled as having no book. There is actually a second copy in Jim's download that is labelled as having an internal book.

Now I am learning something as well! Thanks Adam. I had no idea those 2 copies existed in that form.


Best,

george

[Dan Honeycutt]

From the Bruja.ini file (note that I've disabled the internal opening book, which is why I was able to test Bruja):

;book ##
;selects bruja internal opening book
book 0
;0 = don't use
;1 = use

Jim put in the option to disable the book because you were still grumbling about it. However, I'm 90+ percent sure that you tested it before Jim added that option. But, let's get to the heart of the matter, why would you be unable to test it with an internal book?

Best
Dan H.

[Graham Banks]

From the Bruja.ini file (note that I've disabled the internal opening book, which is why I was able to test Bruja):

;book ##
;selects bruja internal opening book
book 0
;0 = don't use
;1 = use

Jim put in the option to disable the book because you were still grumbling about it. However, I'm 90+ percent sure that you tested it before Jim added that option. But, let's get to the heart of the matter, why would you be unable to test it with an internal book?

Best
Dan H.

CCRL testing conditions state that a generic opening book must be used for both engines in any given game.

Pretty sure that any games played by Bruja before Jim added the disable book option were discarded. There wouldn't have been many.

Sorry you were upset by my grumbling. I was just keen to test your engine for CCRL.

[Dan Honeycutt]

CCRL testing conditions state that a generic opening book must be used for both engines in any given game.

Bruja can be used with any generic opening book you choose. The internal book only comes into play when it leaves the generic opening book which, as I noted to George, will be seldom if ever if your generic book is at all comprehensive.

Pretty sure that any games played by Bruja before Jim added the disable book option were discarded. There wouldn't have been many.

Doesn't matter. As I noted the internal book has negligible effect on play.

Sorry you were upset by my grumbling. I was just keen to test your engine for CCRL.

Not upset in the least. In fact, keep up the grumbling, it encourages progress. Any engine releases of mine will heretofore include an option to turn off the internal book if there is one.

Are you guys going to test the version of Strelka with the position database?

Best
Dan H.

[Graham Banks]

Are you guys going to test the version of Strelka with the position database?

Best
Dan H.

No.