Castling long

[michiguel]

Hi Don again.
Here just a small further message just to keep alive the discussion (this is a discussion board, is not it?). Please, do not take it as any kind of infringement upon your status, or other programmers' status, war on engines, etc. It is just to keep the discussion going (btw., thank you very much for your statistics, I appreciated them enormously, and they are quite an useful amount of information).

Below are 3 games of Alekhine from his peak period.

[pgn][MLNrOfMoves "32"]
[MLFlags "000000"]
[Site "Santiago"]
[Date "1927.??.??"]
[White "Alekhine A"]
[Black "Rodrigo Flores"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D35"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 d5 4. Bg5 Nbd7 5. e3 c6 6. cxd5 exd5 7. Bd3 Be7 8.
Nge2 O-O 9. Ng3 Re8 10. Qc2 Nf8 11. h4 b6 12. Nf5 Bxf5 13. Bxf5 c5 14. O-O-O c4
15. Kb1 b5 16. e4 g6 17. e5 Nh5 18. Bg4 Bxg5 19. hxg5 Nf4 20. g3 Nd3 21. Bf3 Ne6
22. Nxd5 Nxd4 23. Nf6+ Qxf6 24. gxf6 Nxc2 25. Bxa8 Rxa8 26. Kxc2 Nxf2 27. Rhf1
Nxd1 28. Rxd1 h5 29. Rd7 Re8 30. Re7 Rd8 31. Rxa7 Rd5 32. Ra8+ Kh7 33. e6 1-0

[Site "Barcelona"]
[Date "1928.??.??"]
[White "Alekhine A"]
[Black "Domenech R"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[MLNrOfMoves "34"]
[MLFlags "000000"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. Bf4 Bg7 5. e3 c6 6. Bd3 Nbd7 7. e4 dxe4 8. Nxe4
Nxe4 9. Bxe4 Nf6 10. Bd3 Bg4 11. c3 Nh5 12. Be3 e5 13. Be2 exd4 14. Nxd4 Bxe2
15. Qxe2 O-O 16. O-O-O Qa5 17. Kb1 Nf6 18. h4 Rfe8 19. Qf3 Nd5 20. Bc1 Qc7 21.
h5 a5 22. Qh3 Bxd4 23. Rxd4 b5 24. Rg4 Re6 25. Rxg6+ Rxg6 26. hxg6 fxg6 27. Qe6+
Kg7 28. Bh6+ Kh8 29. Re1 Rg8 30. Qe4 Qf7 31. Qd4+ Qf6 32. Re5 Nc7 33. Bg5 Qg7
34. Qd6 Rf8 35. Re7 1-0

[Site "Europe"]
[Date "1930.??.??"]
[White "Eljaschev"]
[Black "Alekhine Alexander"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C01"]
[MLNrOfMoves "20"]
[MLFlags "000000"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. Bd3 Bd6 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. O-O Bg4 7. c3 Nge7 8.
Re1 Qd7 9. Nbd2 O-O-O 10. Qa4 Rde8 11. b4 Kb8 12. b5 Nd8 13. Ne5 Bxe5 14. Rxe5
Ng6 15. Rxe8 Rxe8 16. Nf1 Re1 17. Bb2 Qe8 18. f3 Qe3+ 19. Kh1 Rxa1 20. Bxa1 Qxd3
0-1
[/pgn]

And some diagrams. One could check what her engine would do: castle long or short. (btw., the development of some games is quite interesting)

[d]r2qrnk1/p3bppp/1p3n2/2pp1BB1/3P3P/2N1P3/PPQ2PP1/R3K2R w KQ - 0 14

Alekhine here castles long with white. I am sure many engines would find this 'scary'.

Gaviota considers O-O-O after dxc5, but later changes its mind to Rd1. Looks like black ends up losing a pawn.

Code: Select all

  24445068  18:     16.3    +0.66  8.dxc5 bxc5 9.O-O-O d4 10.exd4 cxd4
                                   11.Nb5 g6 12.Bh3 Ne4 13.Bxe7 Qxe7
                                   14.Rxd4 Rad8 15.Rhd1 Rxd4 16.Rxd4 Qxh4
                                   17.Nc7 Qg5+ 18.Kb1
  72217437  19      44.2    +0.73  8.dxc5 bxc5 9.Rd1 d4 10.O-O Ne6 11.Bxf6
                                   Bxf6 12.Bxh7+ Kh8 13.Bf5 Bxh4 14.Na4
                                   Rc8 15.Bxe6 Rxe6 16.Nxc5 Rd6 17.Qc4 Bf6
  75917031  19:     46.4    +0.73  8.dxc5 bxc5 9.Rd1 d4 10.O-O Ne6 11.Bxf6
                                   Bxf6 12.Bxh7+ Kh8 13.Bf5 Bxh4 14.Na4
                                   Rc8 15.Bxe6 Rxe6 16.Nxc5 Rd6 17.Qc4 Bf6
 107455045  20      65.0    +0.66  8.dxc5 bxc5 9.Rd1 d4 10.O-O h6 11.Bf4
                                   Bd6 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13.exd4 cxd4 14.Nb5
                                   Qb6 15.Nxd4 g6 16.Bh3 Re4 17.Nc6 Rae8
 132051584  20:     78.8    +0.66  8.dxc5 bxc5 9.Rd1 d4 10.O-O h6 11.Bf4
                                   Bd6 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13.exd4 cxd4 14.Nb5
                                   Qb6 15.Nxd4 g6 16.Bh3 Re4 17.Nc6 Rae8
 212709354  21     123.2    +0.81  8.dxc5 bxc5 9.Rd1 d4 10.O-O h6 11.Bf4
                                   Bd6 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13.exd4 cxd4 14.Nb5
                                   Qb6 15.Nxd4 g6 16.Bh3 Re5 17.Qb3 Qxb3
                                   18.Nxb3 Re4
 230281297  21:    133.1    +0.81  8.dxc5 bxc5 9.Rd1 d4 10.O-O h6 11.Bf4
                                   Bd6 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13.exd4 cxd4 14.Nb5
                                   Qb6 15.Nxd4 g6 16.Bh3 Re5 17.Qb3 Qxb3
                                   18.Nxb3 Re4
 346193287  22     195.8    +0.75  8.dxc5 bxc5 9.Rd1 d4 10.O-O h6 11.Bf4
                                   Bd6 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13.exd4 cxd4 14.Nb5
                                   Qb6 15.Nxd4 Re5 16.b4 g6 17.Bh3 Re4
                                   18.Nc6 Rae8
 393820833  22:    221.2    +0.75  8.dxc5 bxc5 9.Rd1 d4 10.O-O h6 11.Bf4
                                   Bd6 12.Bxd6 Qxd6 13.exd4 cxd4 14.Nb5
                                   Qb6 15.Nxd4 Re5 16.b4 g6 17.Bh3 Re4
                                   18.Nc6 Rae8

[d]r2q1rk1/pp3pbp/2p3p1/7n/3N4/2P1B3/PP2QPPP/R3K2R w KQ - 0 16

Alekhine castles long with white. Looks a bit scary, too.

Gaviota switches from O-O to O-O-O

Code: Select all

  65520636  19      40.3    -0.08  9.O-O Nf6 10.Rad1 Qc7 11.Nc2 Rfe8
                                   12.Qf3 Nd5 13.Bd4 Qf4 14.Qxf4 Nxf4
                                   15.Bxg7 Kxg7 16.g3 Nd5 17.Rfe1 Rxe1+
                                   18.Rxe1 Rd8
  83783398  19:     49.9    -0.08  9.O-O Nf6 10.Rad1 Qc7 11.Nc2 Rfe8
                                   12.Qf3 Nd5 13.Bd4 Qf4 14.Qxf4 Nxf4
                                   15.Bxg7 Kxg7 16.g3 Nd5 17.Rfe1 Rxe1+
                                   18.Rxe1 Rd8
 103906952  20      62.3    -0.08  9.O-O Nf6 10.Rad1 Qc7 11.Nf3 Nd5 12.Bd4
                                   Rfe8 13.Qc2 Bxd4 14.Nxd4 Rad8 15.Rfe1
                                   Kg7 16.Qa4 a5 17.Nf3 b5 18.Qd4+ Nf6
                                   19.Qc5
 185394188  20     106.5    +0.00  9.O-O-O Qd5 10.g4 Nf6 11.Nf5 Qxa2
                                   12.Nxg7 Qa1+ 13.Kc2 Qa4+ 14.Kb1 Qe4+
                                   15.Qd3 Kxg7 16.Qxe4 Nxe4 17.Rd7 b5
                                   18.Bd4+ Kh6 19.Be3+ Kg7
 200912778  20:    115.1    +0.00  9.O-O-O Qd5 10.g4 Nf6 11.Nf5 Qxa2
                                   12.Nxg7 Qa1+ 13.Kc2 Qa4+ 14.Kb1 Qe4+
                                   15.Qd3 Kxg7 16.Qxe4 Nxe4 17.Rd7 b5
                                   18.Bd4+ Kh6 19.Be3+ Kg7
 452339865  21     250.8    +0.11  9.O-O-O Qa5 10.Kb1 Nf6 11.Nb3 Qe5
                                   12.Qf3 Rfe8 13.Bd4 Qd5 14.Qxd5 Nxd5
                                   15.Bxg7 Kxg7 16.Rhe1 Nf4 17.g3 Rxe1
                                   18.Rxe1 Nd5 19.c4 Nb4
 524483084  21:    289.0    +0.11  9.O-O-O Qa5 10.Kb1 Nf6 11.Nb3 Qe5
                                   12.Qf3 Rfe8 13.Bd4 Qd5 14.Qxd5 Nxd5
                                   15.Bxg7 Kxg7 16.Rhe1 Nf4 17.g3 Rxe1
                                   18.Rxe1 Nd5 19.c4 Nb4

[d]r3k2r/pppqnppp/2nb4/3p4/3P2b1/2PB1N2/PP1N1PPP/R1BQR1K1 b kq - 0 9

Alekhine castles long with black. I do not know what most engines would prefer.

But here Gaviota prefers O-O

Code: Select all

 324750607  23     190.7    -0.22  O-O 6.Nb3 b6 7.h3 Bf5 8.Bb5 Rfe8 9.Ne5
                                   Bxe5 10.dxe5 a6 11.Ba4 Ng6 12.g4 Ngxe5
                                   13.Bxc6 Nf3+ 14.Qxf3 Rxe1+ 15.Kh2 Qxc6
                                   16.Qxf5 g6 17.Qf3

Miguel

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Thanks Miguel!

So Gaviota does not have a problem to choose castling long, when the option is already on the table. A 33% rate is significantly more than what Don's data would suggest. Do you have by chance any data on what the general rate of castling long for Gaviota would be? Might be interesting to compare.

[velmarin]

Majority of games
come from books or positions where already done castling.

Search Statistics
appears unreliable.
Unless the effect has been searched.

I composed a suite with the king in the center
to test my engine, I almost always make castling,
I have to re-prepare it lost "castling rights".

[Don]

Hi Don again.
Here just a small further message just to keep alive the discussion (this is a discussion board, is not it?). Please, do not take it as any kind of infringement upon your status, or other programmers' status, war on engines, etc. It is just to keep the discussion going (btw., thank you very much for your statistics, I appreciated them enormously, and they are quite an useful amount of information).

I have no idea what you are talking about here - I think you are misunderstanding me completely.

Here are the castle long statistics, I probably don't have enough Stockfish games to make this accurate though and I'm putting them from most to least order:

Stockfish 3.71 percent
Komodo 3.60 percent
Houdini 2.89 percent

Note that Stockfish will castle long much more often than Houdini and this is a stylistic difference. The similarity tester works so well because each program has its own style of play and preferences and biases.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

To post just another small message to cool my necessities in the heat.

Two of the best chess players in history, Kasparov and Alekhine, used to castle long much more frequently than other players: by Kasparov the percentage of games with long castling might be somewhere 15-20, while I suppose (without strict measurements done) that Alekhine would even reach some 30%, an unprecedented score. Other prominent and less prominent chess players would castle long much less frequently, unless, of course, they are inveterate white Sicilian players. I would also notice that, in general, engines would prefer castling short in the great variety of cases, much unlike Kasparov and Alekhine.

I would ask myself what could the reason for such a behaviour be? Were Kasparov and Alekhine weak players, or maybe they had bigger imagination than others? Are engines always correct when they choose to castle short instead of allowing themselves an option of long castling, or maybe they are missing some valuable unexplored alternatives? It is obvious that castling long would immediately expose the king to bigger danger, but maybe there might be some trade-offs for that in the sense of good activity in the center and good attacking chances on the king side.

For the time being I am very much undecided on this issue. I could suppose, though, that most engines, just like most humans, do not make the most of castling long. Maybe they have some larger than necessary penalties for long castling, or maybe lacking a bit in imagination Or maybe the engine side is right after all, with deeper search... Difficult to say, I would intuitively go for the first option. Interesting to know your opinion on the matter, does anyone by chance have some data (when this is possible to collect, for example, with very short books and castling still available) on which engines would exhibit a higher castling long rate than the average, and if those engines would be among the leading pack?

Below is a game of Alekhine on the theme.

[pgn][Site "Mexico City (08)"]
[Date "1932.??.??"]
[White "Alekhine Alexander"]
[Black "Brunner J"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D36"]
[MLNrOfMoves "25"]
[MLFlags "100000"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 d5 4. Bg5 Nbd7 5. cxd5 exd5 6. e3 c6 7. Bd3 Be7 8. Qc2
O-O 9. Nge2 h6 10. h4 Re8 11. Bf4 a6 12. O-O-O c5 13. g4 cxd4 14. Nxd4 Nc5 15.
g5 Nxd3+ 16. Rxd3 Nh5 17. gxh6 Nxf4 18. exf4 g6 19. h5 Kh7 20. hxg6+ fxg6 21.
Rg3 Rg8 22. Rhg1 Qb6 23. Nxd5 Qxd4 24. Rxg6 Qc5 25. Rg7+ Kxh6 26. Rh7# 1-0
[/pgn]

[d]r1bq1rk1/pp1nbpp1/2p2n1p/3p2B1/3P4/2NBP3/PPQ1NPPP/R3K2R w KQ - 0 10

It is interesting to know how many engines would play now 10.h4, like Alekhine, deciding to castle long in the aftermath.

I very much hope you are not bored by this, I think it has some relevance.

Best, Lyudmil

Castle long or not: that's a tricky question that I often ask myself when playing over the board.

As far as DiscoCheck is concerned, what I can tell you is that:

* it does not distinguish in the evaluation if it is long castled or short castled. in fact it does not even know that. instead it looks at the caracteristics of the position (castling is only one way to reach a position that you could otherwise reach with artificial castling in many moves, but the eval would be the same).

* the eval is neutral with respect to side of castling:
- B1 and G1 are both optimal squares for the King in the opening, as far as the piece on square table (PST) is concerned.
- more generally PST for King is filewise symmetric (both opening and endgame).
- king safety is square agnostic, as far as piece attack goes, and adds more weight to the total attacks on the king based on min(distance to B1, distance to G1). again OO and OOO are equal here.

Yet DiscoCheck plays OOO somewhat less often than OO too. One reason is the loss of tempo Kb1, and another reason is the vulnerability of the King on the queen side.

In fact, I think that DiscoCheck chooses OOO too easily, and it often backfires. Just after reading your post, I played only one game, and that pattern happenned: DiscoCheck plays OOO and falls prey to a king attack:
[pgn]
[White "Discocheck"]
[Black "Fruit-051103"]
[ECO "B82"]
[Opening "Sicilian"]
[Variation "Scheveningen, Tal Variation, 8...e5"]
[TimeControl "300+3"]
[Result "0-1"]
[PlyCount "89"]

1. Nc3 c5 2. e4 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 a6 6. Be3 e6 7. Qf3
{(Qd1-f3 Bf8-e7 O-O-O Qd8-c7 Kc1-b1 O-O g2-g4 Nb8-c6 Nd4xc6 Qc7xc6 g4-g5
Nf6-d7 h2-h4 Nd7-e5 Qf3-h5 Bc8-d7 f2-f4 g7-g6) +0.44/18 13} e5 {(e6-e5
Nd4-b3 Bf8-e7 h2-h3 O-O Bf1-e2 Nb8-c6 Qf3-g3 Kg8-h8 O-O-O Qd8-c7 Kc1-b1
Bc8-e6 h3-h4) -0.39/14 8} 8. Nf5 {(Nd4-f5 Bc8xf5 Qf3xf5 Nb8-c6 O-O-O Bf8-e7
Bf1-e2 O-O Kc1-b1 Qd8-c8 Qf5xc8 Ra8xc8 Rh1-f1 b7-b5 f2-f4 Rf8-d8 a2-a3
Rd8-d7 h2-h3) +0.68/19 13} g6 {(g7-g6 Nf5-h6 Bc8-e6 Be3-g5 Bf8-g7 Bf1-d3
Nb8-c6 O-O Ra8-c8 Qf3-g3 Nc6-b4 Ra1-d1 Rc8-c5 Rf1-e1 Nb4xd3 Rd1xd3)
-0.24/15 13} 9. Nh6 {(Nf5-h6 Bc8-e6 Be3-g5 Bf8-e7 O-O-O Nb8-c6 Kc1-b1
Nc6-d4 Qf3-d3 Ke8-f8 f2-f4 Nf6-g8 Nc3-e2 Be7xg5 f4xg5 Nd4xe2 Bf1xe2 Qd8xg5
Qd3xd6+ Kf8-g7) +0.48/19 12} Be6 {(Bc8-e6 Be3-g5 Bf8-g7 Bf1-d3 Nb8-c6 O-O
Ra8-c8 Rf1-e1 Nc6-d4 Qf3-g3 Rc8-c6 Qg3-h4 Rc6-c5 Nc3-d5 Be6xd5 e4xd5
Rc5xd5) -0.25/15 14} 10. Bg5 {(Be3-g5 Bf8-e7 Bf1-d3 Nf6-h5 Bg5-e3 Nh5-f4
g2-g3 Nf4xd3+ c2xd3 Be7-f8 O-O Bf8xh6 Be3xh6 Nb8-c6 Ra1-d1 Nc6-d4 Qf3-e3
Be6-h3 Bh6-g5) +0.43/18 12} Be7 {(Bf8-e7 Bf1-d3 Nf6-h5 Bg5-e3 Nh5-f4 O-O-O
Be7-g5 g2-g3 Bg5xh6 g3xf4 Nb8-c6 Kc1-b1 O-O Rh1-g1) -0.34/15 14} 11. O-O-O
{(O-O-O Nb8-c6 Bg5-e3 Be7-f8 Qf3-e2 Nc6-d4 Qe2-e1 b7-b5 Bf1-d3 b5-b4 Nc3-e2
Qd8-a5 f2-f3 Ra8-c8 Qe1-h4 Bf8xh6 Be3xh6) +0.41/17 12} Nc6 {(Nb8-c6 Nc3-e2
Nf6-d7 Bg5-e3 Nd7-f6 Be3-g5) 0.00/14 11} 12. Kb1 {(Kc1-b1 Nc6-d4 Qf3-d3
Ke8-f8 h2-h4 Kf8-g7 Nc3-e2 Qd8-a5 a2-a3 Nd4-b5 g2-g3 Qa5-a4 f2-f3 Qa4-c4
Ne2-c1 Qc4xd3 Nc1xd3) +0.37/17 11} Nd4 {(Nc6-d4 Qf3-d3 Ra8-c8 Bg5-e3 Be7-f8
Qd3-d2 b7-b5 Be3xd4 e5xd4 Nc3-d5 g6-g5 Qd2xg5 Nf6xe4 Qg5xd8+ Ke8xd8 f2-f3
Be6xd5 f3xe4) +0.29/14 11} 13. Qd3 {(Qf3-d3 Ke8-f8 Nc3-e2 Nd4-c6 Qd3-e3
Kf8-g7 h2-h4 Rh8-e8 Ne2-c3 Qd8-a5 Bf1-d3 Nc6-d4 f2-f3 Kg7-h8 g2-g4 b7-b5
h4-h5 Ra8-c8) +0.26/18 11} Rc8 {(Ra8-c8 Bg5-e3 Be7-f8 Qd3-d2 b7-b5 Be3xd4
e5xd4 Nc3-d5 Rc8-c5 Nd5xf6+ Qd8xf6 f2-f3 Bf8-g7 Nh6-g4 Qf6-h4 Bf1-d3)
+0.12/13 11} 14. h4 {(h2-h4 Nf6-g4 Bg5xe7 Qd8xe7 Nh6xg4 Be6xg4 f2-f3 Bg4-e6
Qd3-d2 O-O h4-h5 g6-g5 Bf1-d3 f7-f5 e4xf5 Be6xf5) +0.16/16 11} Qb6 {(Qd8-b6
Bg5-d2 Ke8-f8 Bd2-e3 Kf8-g7 Qd3-d2 Rh8-e8 f2-f3 Qb6-a5 a2-a3 Qa5-b6 Be3xd4
e5xd4) +0.30/12 9} 15. f4 {(f2-f4 Qb6-a5 a2-a3 Nf6-g4 Nh6xg4 Be6xg4 Rd1-d2
f7-f6 f4xe5 d6xe5 Bg5-e3 O-O Be3xd4 e5xd4 Qd3xd4) +0.37/15 11} Rc6 {(Rc8-c6
f4xe5 d6xe5 Bg5-d2 Nf6-g4 Qd3-g3 Ng4xh6 Bd2xh6 f7-f6 a2-a3 Nd4xc2 Kb1xc2
Be6-b3+ Kc2-b1 Rc6xc3 Qg3xc3 Bb3xd1 Qc3-c8+ Be7-d8) +0.34/12 14} 16. g3
{(g2-g3 Ke8-f8 Bf1-h3 Be6-c4 Qd3-d2 Kf8-g7 f4-f5 Nd4-f3 Qd2-c1 Rh8-e8 f5xg6
h7xg6 Bg5-e3 Nf3-d4) +0.61/14 10} Bc4 {(Be6-c4 Qd3-e3 Nd4-b5 Qe3xb6 Nb5xc3+
b2xc3 Rc6xb6+ Kb1-a1 Bc4xf1 Rh1xf1 Nf6xe4 f4xe5 Ne4xg5 h4xg5 Rh8-f8 Rf1-e1
Ke8-d7 e5xd6 Rb6xd6) +0.72/13 10} 17. Qd2 {(Qd3-d2 Bc4xa2+ Kb1xa2 Nf6xe4
Nc3xe4 Rc6xc2 Qd2xc2 Nd4xc2 Bf1-c4 Qb6-c6 Bc4xf7+ Ke8-f8 Bg5xe7+ Kf8xe7
Ne4-c3 Nc2-b4+ Ka2-b3 Qc6-b6 Nc3-a4 Qb6-b5 Na4-c3) +0.36/18 11} Nxe4
{(Nf6xe4 Nc3xe4 Bc4xa2+ Kb1xa2 Rc6xc2 Qd2xc2 Nd4xc2 Ne4-f6+ Be7xf6 Bg5xf6
Nc2-b4+ Ka2-a3 Rh8-f8 f4xe5 Qb6-a5+ Ka3-b3 Nb4-d5 Bf1-h3 Qa5-b4+ Kb3-a2
Qb4-a4+ Ka2-b1 d6xe5 Rh1-e1) +1.61/12 12} 18. Nxe4 {(Nc3xe4 Bc4xa2+ Kb1xa2
Rc6xc2 Qd2xc2 Nd4xc2 Bf1-c4 Qb6-c6 Bc4xf7+ Ke8-d7 Ne4-c3 Nc2-e3 Rd1-e1
Be7xg5 h4xg5 Rh8-f8 f4xe5 d6xe5) +0.08/17 5} Bxa2+ {(Bc4xa2+ Kb1xa2 Rc6xc2
Qd2xc2 Nd4xc2 Ne4-f6+ Be7xf6 Bg5xf6 Nc2-b4+ Ka2-b1 Qb6-c6 Rh1-h2 Qc6-a4
Rd1xd6 Qa4-a2+ Kb1-c1 Qa2-a1+ Kc1-d2 Qa1xb2+ Kd2-e3 Nb4-d5+ Rd6xd5 e5xf4+
g3xf4 Qb2xf6 Rd5-e5+ Ke8-d7 Rh2-d2+ Kd7-c7) +1.66/13 11} 19. Kxa2 {(Kb1xa2
Rc6xc2 Qd2xc2 Nd4xc2 Bf1-c4 d6-d5 Bg5xe7 Ke8xe7 Bc4xd5 Rh8-c8 Ka2-b1
Nc2-a3+ Kb1-a1 Na3-c2+ Ka1-b1) -0.25/17 10} Rxc2 {(Rc6xc2 Qd2xc2 Nd4xc2
Ne4-f6+ Be7xf6 Bg5xf6 Nc2-b4+ Ka2-b1 Qb6-c6 Rh1-h2 Qc6-a4 Rd1xd6 Qa4-a2+
Kb1-c1 Qa2-a1+ Kc1-d2 Qa1xb2+ Kd2-d1 Qb2-b1+ Kd1-e2 Qb1-c2+ Ke2-f3 e5-e4+
Kf3-e3 Qc2-b3+ Ke3xe4 Qb3xg3) +1.54/14 11} 20. Qxc2 {(Qd2xc2 Nd4xc2 Bf1-c4
d6-d5 Bg5xe7 Ke8xe7 Bc4xd5 Rh8-c8 Ka2-b1 Nc2-a3+ Kb1-a1 Na3-c2+ Ka1-b1)
-0.25/16 9} Nxc2 {(Nd4xc2 Rd1-c1 Nc2-b4+ Ka2-b1 Qb6-a5 Rc1-c8+ Ke8-d7
Rc8xh8 Qa5-a2+ Kb1-c1 Qa2-a1+ Kc1-d2 Qa1xb2+ Kd2-e1 Qb2-b1+ Ke1-f2 Qb1xe4
Bf1-h3+ f7-f5 Rh8xh7 Qe4xh1 Rh7xe7+ Kd7-c6) +1.51/10 2} 21. Bc4 {(Bf1-c4
d6-d5 Bg5xe7 Ke8xe7 Bc4xd5 Rh8-c8 Ka2-b1 Nc2-a3+ Kb1-a1 Na3-c2+ Ka1-b1)
-0.25/15 9} d5 {(d6-d5 Bc4xd5 f7-f6 Bg5xf6 Be7xf6 Nh6-g4 Bf6-e7 f4xe5
Nc2-d4 Ng4-f6+ Be7xf6 Ne4xf6+ Ke8-d8 Rh1-f1 Kd8-e7) +1.58/12 9} 22. Bxe7
{(Bg5xe7 Ke8xe7 Bc4xd5 e5xf4 Bd5xf7 f4xg3 Ne4xg3 Rh8-c8 Ka2-b1 Nc2-a3+
Kb1-a1 Na3-c2+ Ka1-b1) -0.25/15 9} Kxe7 {(Ke8xe7 Rd1xd5 Nc2-b4+ Ka2-b1
Nb4xd5 Bc4xd5 f7-f5 Nh6-f7 Rh8-f8 Ne4-g5 Qb6-d4 Rh1-e1 Qd4-d3+ Kb1-a1
e5-e4) +3.08/11 6} 23. Rxd5 {(Rd1xd5 Nc2-b4+ Ka2-b1 Nb4xd5 Bc4xd5 Rh8-d8
Bd5xf7 e5xf4 g3xf4 Qb6-c6 Ne4-f2 Qc6-g2 Rh1-e1+ Ke7-f8 Nf2-g4 Qg2-g3
Re1-e2) -2.04/15 9} Nb4+ {(Nc2-b4+ Ka2-b1 Nb4xd5 Bc4xd5 f7-f5 Ne4-c3 Rh8-c8
Rh1-c1 e5-e4 g3-g4 Ke7-f8 g4xf5 Kf8-g7 f5xg6 Kg7xh6 g6xh7) +3.04/13 4} 24.
Kb1 {(Ka2-b1 Nb4xd5 Bc4xd5 f7-f5 Ne4-c3 Rh8-c8 Rh1-c1 e5-e4 g3-g4 Ke7-f8
g4xf5 Kf8-g7 Nh6-g8 Rc8xg8 Bd5xg8 Kg7xg8 Nc3xe4) -2.00/17 9} Nxd5 {(Nb4xd5
Bc4xd5 Rh8-d8 Ne4-c3 Qb6-f2 Kb1-a1 e5xf4 g3xf4 b7-b5 Nh6xf7 Rd8xd5 Nc3xd5+
Ke7xf7 h4-h5 g6xh5 Rh1xh5) +2.96/13 2} 25. Bxd5 {(Bc4xd5 Rh8-d8 Ne4-c3
Qb6-f2 Bd5xf7 Qf2xg3 f4xe5 Qg3-d3+ Kb1-a1 Qd3-d2 Nc3-d5+ Ke7-f8 Rh1-f1
Qd2xh6 Bf7xg6+ Kf8-g8 Nd5-f6+ Kg8-h8 Bg6-e4) -2.68/16 4} Rd8 {(Rh8-d8
Ne4-c3 Qb6-e3 Rh1-d1 Qe3xg3 f4xe5 Qg3xe5 Kb1-a2 Qe5-g7 Nh6xf7 Rd8xd5
Nc3xd5+ Ke7xf7 Rd1-e1 Qg7-d4 Re1-e7+ Kf7-f8) +3.22/14 7} 26. Bxf7 {(Bd5xf7
e5xf4 g3xf4 Qb6-c6 Rh1-e1 Rd8-d1+ Re1xd1 Qc6xe4+ Kb1-c1 Qe4xf4+ Kc1-c2
Qf4xh6 Bf7-d5 Qh6xh4 Bd5xb7 Qh4-c4+ Kc2-b1 h7-h5 Bb7-d5) -2.95/16 5} exf4
{(e5xf4 Rh1-e1 Ke7-f8 g3xf4 Kf8-g7 Nh6-g4 Qb6-a5 Re1-c1 Kg7xf7 Ng4-e5+
Kf7-e7 h4-h5 g6xh5) +4.69/12 5} 27. gxf4 {(g3xf4 Qb6-c6 Rh1-e1 Rd8-d1+
Re1xd1 Qc6xe4+ Kb1-c1 Qe4xf4+ Kc1-c2 Qf4xh6 Bf7-d5 Qh6xh4 Bd5xb7 Qh4-c4+
Kc2-b1 h7-h5 Bb7-d5 Qc4-e2) -4.03/16 13} Qb4 {(Qb6-b4 Ne4-c3 Ke7-f8 Rh1-c1
Kf8-g7 h4-h5 Kg7xh6 h5xg6 h7xg6 f4-f5 g6xf5 Bf7-e6 f5-f4 Rc1-h1+ Kh6-g5
Be6-d5 Rd8-e8 Rh1-g1+ Kg5-f5) +5.68/15 10} 28. Nc3 {(Ne4-c3 Ke7-f8 Rh1-c1
Kf8-g7 f4-f5 Kg7xh6 f5xg6 h7xg6 Rc1-c2 Qb4xh4 Rc2-e2 Kh6-g7 Bf7-e6 Qh4-f6
Kb1-a2 Rd8-e8 Be6-d5 Re8xe2 Nc3xe2) -5.08/19 8} Kf8 {(Ke7-f8 Rh1-c1 Kf8-g7
h4-h5 Kg7xh6 h5xg6 h7xg6 f4-f5 g6xf5 Bf7-e6 f5-f4 Rc1-h1+ Kh6-g5 Rh1-g1+
Kg5-h5 Be6-d5 Qb4-e7 Rg1-h1+ Kh5-g6 Rh1-g1+ Kg6-f5) +5.63/15 5} 29. Rc1
{(Rh1-c1 Kf8-g7 f4-f5 Kg7xh6 f5xg6 h7xg6 Rc1-c2 Qb4xh4 Kb1-a2 Qh4-f4 Bf7-d5
b7-b5 Bd5-b3 g6-g5 Nc3-d5 Qf4-e5 Nd5-b4 Qe5-d6 Nb4-c6) -5.23/19 8} Kg7
{(Kf8-g7 f4-f5 Kg7xh6 f5xg6 h7xg6 Bf7-e6 Qb4xh4 Be6-b3 Qh4-f2 Rc1-d1
Rd8xd1+ Nc3xd1 Qf2-f5+ Kb1-a2 g6-g5 Nd1-c3 g5-g4 Bb3-d5 b7-b6) +5.75/15 7}
30. f5 {(f4-f5 Kg7xh6 f5xg6 h7xg6 Rc1-c2 Qb4xh4 Kb1-a2 g6-g5 Rc2-g2 g5-g4
Bf7-d5 Qh4-h5 Bd5-e4 Rd8-d4 b2-b3 Qh5-h3 Rg2-c2 b7-b5 Ka2-b2) -5.38/19 8}
Kxh6 {(Kg7xh6 f5xg6 h7xg6 Bf7-e6 Qb4xh4 Be6-b3 g6-g5 Bb3-c2 Rd8-d4 Rc1-f1
Kh6-g7 Bc2-f5 g5-g4 Bf5-e6 b7-b6 Rf1-f7+ Kg7-g6) +5.78/15 6} 31. fxg6
{(f5xg6 h7xg6 Bf7-a2 Qb4xh4 Kb1-a1 Rd8-d2 Ba2-b1 Qh4-d4 Bb1-c2 Kh6-g7
Nc3-b1 Rd2-g2 Rc1-d1 Qd4-c4 Nb1-a3 Qc4-e6 Ka1-b1 Rg2-e2 Rd1-d8 Qe6-e7
Bc2-d1) -5.56/20 7} hxg6 {(h7xg6 Bf7-e6 Qb4xh4 Be6-b3 g6-g5 Kb1-a2 Qh4-b4
Rc1-h1+ Kh6-g7 Rh1-g1 g5-g4 Bb3-e6 Rd8-d4 Ka2-a1 a6-a5 Ka1-b1 a5-a4)
+6.10/15 8} 32. Ba2 {(Bf7-a2) -5.55/19 7} Qxh4 {(Qb4xh4 Ba2-b3 g6-g5 Bb3-c2
Rd8-d4 Rc1-g1 Kh6-g7 Kb1-a2 b7-b5 Rg1-d1 Rd4xd1 Nc3xd1 g5-g4 Nd1-e3 Qh4-f2
Ne3-f5+ Kg7-f6 Bc2-e4) +6.20/16 7} 33. Be6 {(Ba2-e6 Rd8-d2 Be6-b3 Qh4-h2
Bb3-c2 b7-b5 b2-b3 Qh2-e5 Nc3-a2 Qe5-d4 Rc1-h1+ Kh6-g5 Rh1-f1 a6-a5 Na2-c1
a5-a4 Rf1-f3 Rd2-g2 b3xa4) -5.86/18 7} g5 {(g6-g5 Be6-f5 Rd8-d4 Bf5-c2
g5-g4 Bc2-e4 Qh4-e7 Rc1-e1 g4-g3 Re1-h1+ Kh6-g5 Be4-f3 Qe7-f7 Nc3-e4+
Kg5-f4 Rh1-f1 Qf7-e6 Bf3-g2+ Kf4-g4) +6.44/15 6} 34. Rf1 {(Rc1-f1 Rd8-d2
Be6-b3 Qh4-h2 Kb1-a1 Qh2-g2 Rf1-f6+ Kh6-g7 Rf6-f7+ Kg7-g6 Bb3-a2 g5-g4
Rf7-f4 Kg6-h5 Nc3-e4 Rd2-d1+ Ba2-b1 Qg2-c2 Ne4-c3 Rd1-e1 Rf4-f7) -5.98/18
7} Rd2 {(Rd8-d2 Be6-b3 Qh4-h2 Kb1-a1 Qh2-g2 Rf1-f6+ Kh6-g7 Rf6-f5 Kg7-g6
Rf5-d5 Rd2xb2 Rd5-d6+ Kg6-f5 Bb3-d5 Qg2-h2 Bd5-e4+ Kf5-e5) +6.86/14 6} 35.
Bb3 {(Be6-b3 g5-g4 Bb3-d5 g4-g3 Rf1-h1 Rd2-h2 Rh1xh2 Qh4xh2 Bd5xb7 g3-g2
Bb7xg2 Qh2xg2 Kb1-a2 Kh6-g5 Ka2-b3 Qg2-b7+ Kb3-c2 Qb7-d7) -6.15/18 10} Qd4
{(Qh4-d4 Rf1-h1+ Kh6-g7 Rh1-e1 g5-g4 Re1-e7+ Kg7-h6 Kb1-c1 g4-g3 Re7-e6+
Kh6-g7 Re6-e4 Qd4-d7 Re4-e3 g3-g2 Re3-g3+ Kg7-h6 Nc3-e4 Rd2-e2) +7.15/14
11} 36. Rh1+ {(Rf1-h1+ Kh6-g7 Rh1-h5 Qd4-g1+ Kb1-a2 Kg7-g6 Rh5-h8 Qg1-c1
Nc3-d1 Rd2xd1 Bb3xd1 Qc1xd1 Rh8-g8+ Kg6-f6 b2-b3 Qd1-d2+ Ka2-a3 Qd2-a5+
Ka3-b2 Qa5-e5+ Kb2-c2 Kf6-f7 Rg8-a8 g5-g4) -7.14/17 8} Kg7 {(Kh6-g7 Rh1-e1
g5-g4 Re1-e7+ Kg7-h6 Re7-e6+ Kh6-h5 Kb1-c1 Rd2-h2 Kc1-b1 Qd4-d3+ Kb1-a1
Qd3-d2 Nc3-d1 Qd2-a5+ Bb3-a2 g4-g3 Re6-e7) +7.40/15 8} 37. Rh5 {(Rh1-h5
Qd4-g1+ Kb1-a2 Kg7-g6 Rh5-h8 Qg1-c1 Nc3-d1 Rd2xd1 Bb3xd1 Qc1xd1 Rh8-g8+
Kg6-f6 b2-b3 g5-g4 Rg8-f8+ Kf6-g7 Rf8-c8 Qd1-d7 Rc8-c1 g4-g3) -7.40/17 6}
Qd3+ {(Qd4-d3+ Kb1-a1 Qd3-f1+ Ka1-a2 Qf1-g2 Ka2-a1 Kg7-g6 Rh5-h8 Rd2xb2
Rh8-g8+ Kg6-h7 Rg8xg5 Qg2-d2 Nc3-b1 Qd2-c1 Bb3-a2 Rb2xa2+ Ka1xa2 Qc1xg5
Nb1-c3) +9.00/15 9} 38. Ka1 {(Kb1-a1 Qd3-f1+ Ka1-a2 Qf1-c1 Nc3-d1 Kg7-g6
Rh5-h1 g5-g4 Rh1-g1 Rd2xb2+ Nd1xb2 Qc1xg1 Bb3-d5 g4-g3 Bd5xb7 g3-g2 Nb2-d3
Qg1-d4 Bb7xg2 Qd4xd3 Bg2-b7 Qd3-e2+ Ka2-a1) -7.92/21 6} Qf1+ {(Qd3-f1+
Ka1-a2 Qf1-g2 Nc3-d1 Rd2-d3 Nd1-c3 Rd3xc3 Rh5xg5+ Qg2xg5 b2xc3 Qg5-d2+
Ka2-b1 Qd2xc3 Bb3-c2 b7-b5 Kb1-c1 Qc3-d4 Bc2-b3 a6-a5 Kc1-c2) +9.48/16 7}
39. Ka2 {(Ka1-a2 Qf1-c1 Nc3-d1 Rd2-e2 Bb3-a4 Re2-e5 Nd1-c3 Re5-a5 Rh5-h2
Qc1-f4 Rh2-c2 b7-b5 b2-b3 b5xa4 Nc3xa4 g5-g4 Ka2-b2 g4-g3 Rc2-g2 Ra5-d5
Rg2-c2) -8.54/21 6} Qg2 {(Qf1-g2 Nc3-d1 Rd2-d3 Nd1-c3 Rd3xc3 Rh5xg5+ Qg2xg5
b2xc3 Qg5-d2+ Ka2-b1 Qd2xc3 Bb3-c2 b7-b5 Kb1-c1 Qc3-d4 Kc1-b1 a6-a5 Kb1-a2
a5-a4) +9.52/16 7} 40. Ka1 {(Ka2-a1 Rd2-d8 Nc3-e4 Qg2xe4 Rh5xg5+ Kg7-h6
Rg5-g1 Rd8-d2 Rg1-c1 Qe4-g2 Rc1-b1 Qg2-f2 Ka1-a2 Kh6-g6 Bb3-e6 Qf2-d4
Be6-b3 Kg6-g5 Ka2-a1 Qd4-b6) -8.28/19 6} Kg6 {(Kg7-g6 Rh5-h8 Rd2xb2 Bb3-d5
Qg2-d2 Bd5-e4+ Kg6-f6 Rh8-f8+ Kf6-e6 Be4-d5+ Ke6-e7 Rf8-f7+ Ke7-e8 Nc3-b1
Qd2-c1 Bd5-a2 Rb2xa2+ Ka1xa2 Qc1-c2+ Ka2-a1 Ke8xf7 Nb1-a3) +10.99/15 5} 41.
Rh8 {(Rh5-h8 Rd2xb2 Bb3-d5 Qg2-d2 Bd5-e4+ Kg6-f7 Rh8-h7+ Kf7-g8 Rh7-c7
Rb2-b4 Rc7-c8+ Kg8-f7 Rc8-c7+ Kf7-e6 Be4-d5+ Ke6-d6 Bd5-b3 Kd6xc7 Nc3-d5+
Kc7-c6 Nd5xb4+ Qd2xb4 Ka1-a2 g5-g4 Ka2-b2) -10.97/19 9} Rxb2 {(Rd2xb2
Bb3-d5 Qg2-d2 Bd5-e4+ Kg6-f6 Rh8-f8+ Kf6-e6 Be4-d5+ Ke6-e7 Rf8-f7+ Ke7-e8
Nc3-b1 Qd2-c1 Bd5-e4 Ke8xf7 Be4-d5+ Kf7-f6 Bd5-e4 g5-g4) +13.17/14 5} 42.
Bd5 {(Bb3-d5 Qg2-d2 Nc3-b1 Qd2xd5 Ka1xb2 Qd5-e5+ Kb2-c2 Qe5xh8 Kc2-d3
Qh8-h3+ Kd3-d4 Qh3-g2 Kd4-c3 Qg2-c6+ Kc3-d3 Qc6-d5+ Kd3-c2 g5-g4 Nb1-d2
g4-g3 Kc2-c3) -12.56/18 8} Qd2 {(Qg2-d2 Nc3-b1 Qd2-b4 Bd5-e4+ Kg6-f6
Rh8-f8+ Kf6-e7 Rf8-b8 Qb4-d4 Rb8-c8 Rb2-c2+ Rc8-c3 Rc2xc3 Nb1xc3 Qd4xc3+
Ka1-a2 Qc3-c4+ Ka2-b2 Qc4-b4+ Kb2-c2 Qb4xe4+ Kc2-d2) +13.52/13 5} 43. Nb1
{(Nc3-b1 Rb2-a2+ Bd5xa2 Qd2-d4+ Nb1-c3 Qd4xc3+ Ka1-b1 Qc3xh8 Kb1-c2 g5-g4
Ba2-c4 g4-g3 Bc4-d3+ Kg6-g5 Bd3-e4 Kg5-f4 Be4-d5 Qh8-d4 Bd5-h1 Qd4-f2+
Kc2-d1 Qf2-g1+ Kd1-d2 Qg1xh1 Kd2-e2) -14.53/17 6} Qb4 {(Qd2-b4 Bd5-e4+
Kg6-f6 Rh8-f8+ Kf6-e7 Rf8-b8 Qb4-d4 Rb8-c8 Rb2-c2+ Rc8-c3 Rc2xc3 Nb1xc3
Qd4xc3+ Ka1-a2 Qc3-c4+ Ka2-b1 Qc4xe4+ Kb1-c1 Qe4-e1+ Kc1-b2 g5-g4)
+15.55/13 4} 44. Be4+ {(Bd5-e4+ Qb4xe4 Rh8-g8+ Kg6-h7 Ka1xb2 Qe4-g2+ Kb2-c1
Kh7xg8 Nb1-d2 g5-g4 Kc1-c2 Qg2-c6+ Kc2-d3 g4-g3 Kd3-e3 g3-g2 Nd2-f3 Qc6-c3+
Ke3-e2 Qc3xf3+ Ke2xf3) -11.93/17 6} Kf6 {(Kg6-f6 Rh8-f8+ Kf6-e7 Rf8-b8
Qb4-d4 Rb8-c8 Rb2-c2+ Rc8-c3 Rc2xc3 Nb1xc3 Qd4xc3+ Ka1-a2 Qc3-c4+ Ka2-b2
Qc4-b4+ Kb2-a2 Qb4xe4 Ka2-b2 g5-g4) +15.72/14 7} 45. Rh5 {(Rh8-f8+ Kf6-e7
Rf8-b8 Qb4-d4 Rb8-c8 Rb2-b3+ Nb1-c3 Qd4-d2 Nc3-a4 Rb3-a3+ Ka1-b1 Qd2-b4+
Na4-b2 Qb4xe4+ Rc8-c2 Ra3-c3 Kb1-a1 Rc3xc2 Ka1-b1 Rc2xb2+ Kb1xb2 g5-g4)
-M427/17 8 White resigns} *
[/pgn]

I think you should listen to the wisdom of Don on this one. Alekhine is no authority at 3200 ELO level...

Thanks, Lucas.

If you allow me some remarks.
Castling is not only one way to reach a position that you could otherwise reach with artificial castling in many moves, but the eval staying the same; that might be the case, if you do not give bonuses for an existing option of castling. An existing option of castling would mean the possibility to go to a safe square. An unexisting option in the middlegame (when a rook or the king has already moved, or temporarily inexistant, like your excellent h6 knight from the game prevents the black king from castling short) would quite often already completely change the position characteristics.

Concerning square agnosticity of king safety in Discocheck, do not you have penalties for king in the center in the middlegame, squares on the first rank better than squares on the second, etc.? That might make some difference, although the attacking potential and the distance from the king remain the same.

Concerning the vulnerability of the king on the queen side, what makes it more vulnerable than a king on the king side, apart from some possible tempo losses?

A bit on the game:

Good game. I think up until move 16 Discocheck is better, maybe winning. That is why you should not blame long castling for the loss. 17. Qd2 is an obvious mistake. 17. Qe3 would do nice. Do you consider x-ray attacks in Discocheck? That might solve some of Disco's problems in the current game. Disco probably misses that the c6 black rook attacks c2 on an x-ray, and that actually wins the game. But I acknowledge that Fruit combination was exquisite, probably difficult to see. (Please, do not misunderstand my words here as personal infringement, audacity, etc., those are just some casual comments, would be happy for a refutation)

Concerning Don, that is the most difficult one, I personally do not know who is right; I simply noticed that Alekhine and Kasparov (2 of the best chess players according to me, you might add also Fischer and maybe Karpov) would play long castling much more often than the average. That certainly rings a bell. Theoretically, there must be an optimal occurence rate for long castling, maybe 7% (my crazy intuitive estimation, obviously very wrong), maybe the 5% Komodo exhibits, maybe the 3% Houdini exhibits, why not the 15% of Kasparov or the whopping 30% Alekhine figure. There is a wide room for discussion, evidence here. Or maybe it is just a matter of style, as Don says, I do not know. But the problem is there and might provide some clues to something, even if meaningless from a certain point of view.

I am a bit sceptical about those 3200 elo figures. That is a rating of a computer consisting of many cores, you could increase the cores endlessly; why not, in such a case, give Alekhine a thinking time x times bigger (x being the number of cores) for comparison purposes? I think this would make sense. And in this case you would see that the difference in rating is not all that significant (although computers might still be better).

What I know for certain, is that Alekhine is not a guy to ridicule, especially when it comes to opening theory.

Best, Lyudmil

PS. I hope I did not say something completely unjustified, that will release the outrage of a leading programmer

[lucasart]

Here's what DiscoCheck thinks, after a 60 sec search in each of the 3 positions, using 128 MB Hash:

[d]r2qrnk1/p3bppp/1p3n2/2pp1BB1/3P3P/2N1P3/PPQ2PP1/R3K2R w KQ - 0 14

Code: Select all

info score cp 86 depth 1 nodes 131 time 0 pv e1g1
info score cp 54 depth 2 nodes 439 time 0 pv e1g1 f8g6
info score cp 63 depth 3 nodes 824 time 1 pv e1g1 f8g6 c2a4
info score cp 40 depth 4 nodes 3019 time 4 pv e1g1 c5d4 e3d4 f8e6
info score cp 53 depth 5 nodes 4384 time 6 pv e1g1 c5d4 e3d4 f8e6 c2a4
info score cp 50 depth 6 nodes 9525 time 11 pv e1g1 c5d4 e3d4 f8e6 a1d1 h7h6
info score cp 52 depth 7 nodes 17760 time 16 pv e1g1 c5d4 e3d4 f8e6 a1d1 e6g5 h4g5
info score cp 44 depth 8 nodes 36557 time 28 pv e1g1 c5d4 e3d4 f8e6 a1d1 h7h6 f5e6 f7e6
info score cp 42 depth 9 nodes 93059 time 64 pv e1g1 f8e6 a1d1 h7h6 f5e6 f7e6 g5f6 e7f6 h4h5
info score cp 58 depth 10 nodes 220193 time 146 lowerbound
info score cp 62 depth 10 nodes 253662 time 167 pv d4c5 b6c5 a1d1 g7g6 f5h3 d8a5 e1g1 a8d8 a2a3 f8e6
info score cp 63 depth 11 nodes 329702 time 214 pv d4c5 b6c5 a1d1 g7g6 f5h3 d8a5 e1g1 a8d8 e3e4 d5d4 e4e5
info score cp 60 depth 12 nodes 556848 time 360 pv d4c5 b6c5 a1d1 g7g6 f5h3 d8a5 e1g1 a8d8 g5f6 e7f6 d1d5 f6h4
info score cp 61 depth 13 nodes 856845 time 549 pv d4c5 b6c5 a1d1 g7g6 f5h3 d8a5 e1g1 a8d8 g5f6 e7f6 d1d5 d8d5 c3d5
info score cp 70 depth 14 nodes 1423781 time 903 pv d4c5 b6c5 a1d1 g7g6 f5h3 d8a5 e1g1 a8d8 g5f6 e7f6 c3d5 f6h4 c2c4 h4g5
info score cp 77 depth 15 nodes 2293823 time 1449 pv d4c5 b6c5 a1d1 g7g6 f5h3 d8a5 e1g1 a8d8 g5f6 e7f6 c3d5 f6h4 c2c4 h4g5 h3g4
info score cp 68 depth 16 nodes 3477542 time 2164 pv d4c5 b6c5 a1d1 g7g6 f5h3 d8a5 e1g1 a8d8 g5f6 e7f6 c3d5 f6h4 c2c4 h4g5 h3g4 h7h5
info score cp 74 depth 17 nodes 7649357 time 4751 pv d4c5 g7g6 f5h3 b6c5 e1c1 a8b8 c1b1 h7h5 h1e1 d5d4 g2g3 d8b6 c3e2 b8d8 e3d4 c5d4 h3g2
info score cp 77 depth 18 nodes 13587730 time 8391 pv d4c5 g7g6 f5h3 b6c5 e1c1 a8b8 c1b1 d5d4 e3d4 c5d4 g5e3 b8b4 c3e2 d4e3 d1d8 e8d8 f2e3 b4h4
info score cp 68 depth 19 nodes 28858639 time 17720 pv d4c5 b6c5 a1d1 g7g6 f5h3 d8a5 e1g1 a8d8 g5f6 e7f6 c3d5 f6h4 c2c4 h4g5 d1d3 g8h8 d3a3 a5d2 d5c7
info score cp 69 depth 20 nodes 45199243 time 27564 pv d4c5 b6c5 a1d1 g7g6 f5h3 d8a5 e1g1 a8d8 g5f6 e7f6 c3d5 f6h4 c2c4 h4g5 d1d3 a7a6 d3c3 g8g7 f1d1 h7h5
info score cp 68 depth 21 nodes 75861776 time 46051 pv d4c5 b6c5 a1d1 d8a5 e1g1 a8d8 g5f6 e7f6 c3d5 f6h4 c2c4 e8e5 f5c2 e5h5 d5f4 h5h6 d1d8 h4d8 f1d1 d8f6 c4b3
bestmove d4c5 ponder b6c5

[d]r2q1rk1/pp3pbp/2p3p1/7n/3N4/2P1B3/PP2QPPP/R3K2R w KQ - 0 16

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info score cp 60 depth 1 nodes 49 time 0 pv e1g1
info score cp 37 depth 2 nodes 143 time 0 pv e1g1 g7e5
info score cp 54 depth 3 nodes 561 time 0 pv e1g1 d8d5 f1d1
info score cp 29 depth 4 nodes 1019 time 1 pv e1g1 d8d5 f1d1 g7e5
info score cp 41 depth 5 nodes 2007 time 2 pv e1g1 d8d5 d4f3 f8e8 c3c4
info score cp 46 depth 6 nodes 4845 time 7 pv e1g1 g7d4 f1d1 d8b6 d1d4 a8e8
info score cp 48 depth 7 nodes 16968 time 24 pv e1g1 f8e8 a1d1 d8h4 e2f3 a8d8 g2g3
info score cp 32 depth 8 nodes 24154 time 29 upperbound
info score cp 28 depth 8 nodes 30416 time 33 pv e1g1 f8e8 f1d1 h5f4 e2f3 f4d5 a1c1 d8h4
info score cp 26 depth 9 nodes 44166 time 41 pv e1g1 f8e8 f1d1 h5f4 e2g4 f4d5 e3g5 d8d6 g4h4
info score cp 17 depth 10 nodes 89167 time 68 pv e1g1 f8e8 e2f3 d8h4 h2h3 g7d4 e3d4 h4f4 f3g4 f7f5
info score cp 33 depth 11 nodes 185269 time 125 lowerbound
info score cp 26 depth 11 nodes 277408 time 179 pv e1g1 f8e8 a1d1 d8d5 a2a3 g7h6 c3c4 d5e4 f1e1 h6e3 e2e3
info score cp 29 depth 12 nodes 367306 time 231 pv e1g1 f8e8 d4f3 h5f4 e2c4 f4d3 c4b3 d8e7 a1d1 d3e5 f3g5 a8d8
info score cp 18 depth 13 nodes 659309 time 398 pv e1g1 f8e8 d4f3 h5f4 e2c4 f4d5 e3c5 d8f6 a1d1 f6f5 g1h1 f5f4 c4f4
info score cp 19 depth 14 nodes 1126149 time 667 pv e1g1 f8e8 d4b3 h5f4 e2f3 f4d5 a1e1 d5e3 e1e3 e8e3 f2e3 d8c7 f3f4 c7f4
info score cp 12 depth 15 nodes 2740606 time 1636 pv e1g1 f8e8 e2c4 h5f6 d4f3 f6d5 e3c5 d8c7 a1e1 g7f6 h2h3 b7b5 c4g4 a8d8 g4g3
info score cp 9 depth 16 nodes 5227672 time 3087 pv e1g1 f8e8 e2c4 h5f6 d4c2 f6d5 f1e1 g7e5 a1d1 d8a5 e3h6 a5c7 g2g3 a8d8 c2d4 e5f6
info score cp 13 depth 17 nodes 6560991 time 3836 pv e1g1 f8e8 e2c4 h5f6 a1e1 d8d5 c4b3 d5b3 d4b3 f6g4 b3a5 g7e5 g2g3 g4e3 e1e3 a8b8 f1d1
info score cp 13 depth 18 nodes 10959308 time 6380 pv e1g1 f8e8 e2c4 h5f6 d4f3 f6d5 e3c5 d8a5 f1e1 g7f6 c5d4 f6d4 f3d4 a5c7 a1d1 c7f4 c4b3 e8e1 d1e1 a8b8
info score cp 14 depth 19 nodes 18160887 time 10499 pv e1g1 f8e8 e2c4 h5f6 d4f3 d8d5 c4b4 a7a5 b4b6 d5b5 b6b5 c6b5 f1e1 f6e4 e3d4 b5b4 c3b4 a5b4 e1e3
info score cp 16 depth 20 nodes 28069262 time 16094 pv e1g1 f8e8 e2c4 g7d4 a1d1 d8b6 d1d4 b6b2 d4d7 e8f8 e3h6 h5g7 h6c1 b2b5 c4b5 c6b5 d7b7 a7a6 f1d1 a8c8
info score cp 19 depth 21 nodes 78024146 time 44674 pv e1g1 f8e8 a1d1 d8a5 e2c4 h5f6 f1e1 f6d5 d4c2 a8d8 e3g5 g7f6 g5f6 d5f6 d1d8 a5d8 e1e8 d8e8 c4d4 e8e4 d4f6 e4c2
bestmove e1g1 ponder f8e8

[d]r3k2r/pppqnppp/2nb4/3p4/3P2b1/2PB1N2/PP1N1PPP/R1BQR1K1 b kq - 0 9

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info score cp -24 depth 1 nodes 48 time 0 pv e8g8
info score cp -35 depth 2 nodes 166 time 0 pv e8g8 d2b3
info score cp -24 depth 3 nodes 543 time 0 pv e8g8 d1b3 a8b8
info score cp -36 depth 4 nodes 1055 time 1 pv e8g8 d1b3 a8b8 f3g5
info score cp -20 depth 5 nodes 1672 time 2 lowerbound
info score cp -19 depth 5 nodes 3284 time 4 pv e8g8 d2b3 e7g6 b3c5 d6c5
info score cp -19 depth 6 nodes 5223 time 7 pv e8g8 d2b3 e7g6 b3c5 d6c5 d4c5
info score cp -3 depth 7 nodes 9000 time 13 lowerbound
info score cp -2 depth 7 nodes 11645 time 17 pv e8g8 d2b3 e7g6 h2h3 g4f5 c1g5 a8e8
info score cp -9 depth 8 nodes 16757 time 21 pv e8g8 d2b3 e7g6 b3c5 d6c5 d4c5 a8e8 c1e3
info score cp -4 depth 9 nodes 38061 time 34 pv e8g8 d1b3 c6a5 b3c2 e7g6 h2h3 g4e6 f3g5 a8e8
info score cp -20 depth 10 nodes 59970 time 48 upperbound
info score cp -18 depth 10 nodes 70914 time 54 pv e8g8 d1c2 e7g6 h2h3 g4e6 d2b3 a8e8 c1e3 a7a6 b3c5
info score cp -21 depth 11 nodes 125658 time 89 pv e8g8 d1c2 e7g6 h2h3 g4e6 d2b3 a8e8 c1e3 a7a6 f3g5 h7h6
info score cp -18 depth 12 nodes 268810 time 179 pv e8g8 d1c2 g4f5 d2b3 a8e8 c1g5 f7f6 g5d2 f5d3 c2d3 d7f5 d3b5
info score cp -8 depth 13 nodes 651459 time 415 pv e8g8 d1c2 g4f5 d2b3 a8e8 c1d2 a7a6 d3f5 d7f5 c2f5 e7f5 g2g4 f5e7 a1e1
info score cp -24 depth 14 nodes 1709615 time 1068 upperbound
info score cp -25 depth 14 nodes 2339215 time 1462 pv e8g8 d2f1 g8h8 f1e3 g4h5 d3e2 f7f6 c1d2 d6f4 d1b3 a8b8 b3a3 f4d6 a3b3
info score cp -20 depth 15 nodes 2938264 time 1818 pv e8g8 d2f1 g4f5 f1e3 f5g6 d3g6 f7g6 c1d2 a8e8 d1b3 c6a5 b3c2 e7f5 e3f5 f8f5
info score cp -24 depth 16 nodes 5131096 time 3134 pv e8g8 d2f1 g4f5 f1e3 f5g6 d3g6 f7g6 c1d2 a8e8 d1b3 c6a5 b3c2 e7f5 e3f5 f8f5 a1d1 d7e8
info score cp -25 depth 17 nodes 9956291 time 6046 pv e8g8 d2f1 g4f5 f1e3 f5g6 d3g6 f7g6 d1b3 c6a5 b3c2 a8c8 c1d2 c7c5 d4c5 d6c5 a1d1 c5d6
info score cp -20 depth 18 nodes 13660799 time 8225 pv e8g8 d2f1 g4f5 f1e3 f5g6 d3g6 f7g6 c1d2 a8e8 d1b3 c6a5 b3c2 d6f4 a1d1 g8h8 f3e5 f4e5 d4e5
info score cp -12 depth 19 nodes 26747879 time 16165 pv e8g8 d2f1 f8e8 f1e3 g4h5 c1d2 d6f4 e3f1 f4d2 f1d2 e7g6 d1c2 h5f3 d2f3 e8e1 a1e1 a8e8 e1e8 d7e8 d3g6 h7g6
info score cp -9 depth 20 nodes 53207798 time 31930 pv e8g8 d1c2 g4f5 d2f1 f5d3 c2d3 e7g6 c1d2 d6f4 f1e3 a7a6 d3f5 d7f5 e3f5 a8e8 d2e3 f4e3 e1e3 g6f4 a1e1
info score cp -7 depth 21 nodes 68343129 time 40890 pv e8g8 d1c2 g4f5 d2f1 f5d3 c2d3 e7g6 c1d2 a7a6 f1e3 d6f4 d3c2 f4e3 e1e3 a8e8 c2b3 e8e3 d2e3 b7b5 b3a3 f8a8
bestmove e8g8 ponder d1c2

It's remarkable to note that:
* as I explained in my previous post DiscoCheck is perfectly neutral between OO and OOO, as far as the eval is concerned.
* in all 3 positions OO is the prefered choice, especially after a deep search in the first one (where OOO was considered for a short while).

So as Don explained already, it's your assumption that is wrong. What makes you think that OOO is the best move? Alekhine may have played it, and won miniature games against opponents that are ridiculously weak compared to modern engines, especially in tactics (which is how the game continued). So what?

Perhaps with a high contempt value an engine should prefer OOO as it makes more double edge games, and perhaps less draws. But the key thing to remember is "perhaps": this is a fine assertion but without testing results it is void.

[Don]

Majority of games
come from books or positions where already done castling.

Search Statistics
appears unreliable.
Unless the effect has been searched.

I composed a suite with the king in the center
to test my engine, I almost always make castling,
I have to re-prepare it lost "castling rights".

My statistics are based on a 5 move opening book where about 9% of white side has castling and about 14% of the black openings have castling.

I just made a 3 move (6 ply) opening book that has no castling - I'll look to see what kind of statistics Komodo produces without 10% of the castling moves being forced on it. This gives me 5,174 openings.

Don

[velmarin]

Majority of games
come from books or positions where already done castling.

Search Statistics
appears unreliable.
Unless the effect has been searched.

I composed a suite with the king in the center
to test my engine, I almost always make castling,
I have to re-prepare it lost "castling rights".

My statistics are based on a 5 move opening book where about 9% of white side has castling and about 14% of the black openings have castling.

I just made a 3 move (6 ply) opening book that has no castling - I'll look to see what kind of statistics Komodo produces without 10% of the castling moves being forced on it. This gives me 5,174 openings.

Don

My observation was in a general way,
say, CCRL games, ect.

If you keep on own tests, about 5 moves, are true.

But even so agree,
or agree with you,

Lyudmid tend to express their opinions, as certain..

It seems that simply do a "long castling", and is a sign of superior
and as he says "LucasArt" Alekhine, Alekhine, those were different times, Alekhine could give pieze advantage and win the game.

[BubbaTough]

There is always the possibility that Alekhine and Kasparov castled long more frequently than others not because they thought it was objectively best, but because the resulting positions were more unbalanced (more likely to lead to a decisive result for one side or the other).

-Sam

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

It's remarkable to note that:
* as I explained in my previous post DiscoCheck is perfectly neutral between OO and OOO, as far as the eval is concerned.
* in all 3 positions OO is the prefered choice, especially after a deep search in the first one (where OOO was considered for a short while).

So as Don explained already, it's your assumption that is wrong. What makes you think that OOO is the best move? Alekhine may have played it, and won miniature games against opponents that are ridiculously weak compared to modern engines, especially in tactics (which is how the game continued). So what?

Perhaps with a high contempt value an engine should prefer OOO as it makes more double edge games, and perhaps less draws. But the key thing to remember is "perhaps": this is a fine assertion but without testing results it is void.

The only reason that Disco prefers short castling is then the fact that the king has quicker access to a safer square. But does that necessarily mean that castling short is better? Gaviota results on the 3 positions are different.

I am not sure about your final verdict on Alekhine and the engines. Alekhine has probably spent some 10 minutes in a critical position (and deciding which way to castle is such a position), while Disco just seconds. A longer search might be different. Besides, those are positions that Alekhine was very familiar with, in contrast with Disco.

One important feature to note is that after castling long the side that has castled in such a way can already safely attack the enemy king with storming pawns, while this would not be true of short castling. Actually, when Disco plays short castling in all 3 positions, it says 'I am not going to storm with pawns your king, and you are not going to storm mine with yours, let's keep it quiet'. An entity that castles long would say 'I am going to allow you the opportunity to storm my king with pawns, but I will also enjoy that privilege in return, let's keep it sharp'. Maybe it is a matter of style, after all, as Don says, because both Alekhine and Kasparov were outstanding attacking players.

But maybe there are some 'invisible' features of the positions, for example, the well-calculated possibility for advance of storming pawns on both flanks, control of center, etc., that could realistically outweigh the single tempo the king needs to transfer to b1 (b8).