TCEC Stage 3 (Season 2) has started with Houdini dev version

[Leto]

I think if you have the ability to distribute your product routinely then a subscription based model seems logical, even profitable. The tough decision is coming up with a proper cost for it. How much would people be willing to pay for monthly updates? Perhaps that's something you should ask your customers.

Some possibilities:

A) Monthly subscrition model:
1. $5 per month means $60 per year, $8 per month means $96, $10 per month would be $120, etc etc.

2. Can customers pay monthly, or must they pay for the full 12 months. If they can pay monthly, would the monthly charge be higher than if you pay for the full 12 months? For example Playstation Plus costs $49.99 and you get 12 months of service, but you can choose to pay just $9.99 for one month of service if you want to go month by month, however if you are going to use the service for many months it's much smarter to just pay the full $49.99.


B) Buy what you want model:
1. Make every version available for purchase as it comes available, and every version will have a different price. It would be tough to decide how to price each version, as each version required a different amount of work to create, it would be up to the team to decide how much they should cost.

For example Komodo 6 costs $39.95. Two weeks later you have a stronger version which you call dev 1121.05, maybe you can price it somewhere between $3 and $5. Five weeks later you come up with a moderate breakthrough and you call it dev 1242.34 (just making up numbers here for example purposes), maybe you can price it at $8.

Both models seem interesting to me, and there have been people that have been interested in similar models since Rybka's haydays. There's people that would be willing to pay for these models.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

We don't have any specific plans yet. But we get gains frequently so there is almost always a stronger version of Komodo than the last release. The funny thing is that when we say so publicly I often get angry emails. One person who emails me frequently criticized me for making progress too soon after a release. I didn't know what to say so I almost said sarcastically that I'm really sorry we improved Komodo so quickly, maybe some jail time is in order or some kind of penalty we should have to pay.

Don't worry about it Don. Some people just don't understand that there are always development versions of an engine and that they don't know how to separate them from the public release.

But I still feel badly for them. We are conditioned by capitalism to constantly think we are "missing" out if we don't buy, buy, buy. And we always want the very latest and greatest gadget or toy. I am like that too.

The subscription idea solves a lot of that though.

Tcec Komodo is a development, stronger than K6. Its ok, nobody has to complain.

But if you release it now as K7, looking for another 40 $ there are some problems. The ones that does not bought the new, shinny K6 will now have K7 for 40$. Others, maybe old client from long time, recentrly paying 40 for K6 has now to pay again another 40$ for K7( for a 80$ total in one month aprox). And looks some unfair.

They get punished because they bought "too fast" K6.

Some people never buy a engine, other buy everything offered and most people buy time to time. If you release 4 versions in a year, many will not follow your pace (spend 4 x 40 = 120). And if you release so often some will not buy just because soon, (couple of months) will be another stronger version and will spend their money better if they wait.

Just my 2 pesos.

How is anyone being punished if we were to release a new version even every week? Are you forced to buy? You just skip buying that version and wait until we release an upgrade you feel is worthy of your dollar.

We have received some emails BEGGING us to release. The emails say PLEASE RELEASE I am willing to pay, I know you have something better. So no matter what you do people are going to bust your balls.

[IGarcia]

We don't have any specific plans yet. But we get gains frequently so there is almost always a stronger version of Komodo than the last release. The funny thing is that when we say so publicly I often get angry emails. One person who emails me frequently criticized me for making progress too soon after a release. I didn't know what to say so I almost said sarcastically that I'm really sorry we improved Komodo so quickly, maybe some jail time is in order or some kind of penalty we should have to pay.

Don't worry about it Don. Some people just don't understand that there are always development versions of an engine and that they don't know how to separate them from the public release.

But I still feel badly for them. We are conditioned by capitalism to constantly think we are "missing" out if we don't buy, buy, buy. And we always want the very latest and greatest gadget or toy. I am like that too.

The subscription idea solves a lot of that though.

Tcec Komodo is a development, stronger than K6. Its ok, nobody has to complain.

But if you release it now as K7, looking for another 40 $ there are some problems. The ones that does not bought the new, shinny K6 will now have K7 for 40$. Others, maybe old client from long time, recentrly paying 40 for K6 has now to pay again another 40$ for K7( for a 80$ total in one month aprox). And looks some unfair.

They get punished because they bought "too fast" K6.

Some people never buy a engine, other buy everything offered and most people buy time to time. If you release 4 versions in a year, many will not follow your pace (spend 4 x 40 = 120). And if you release so often some will not buy just because soon, (couple of months) will be another stronger version and will spend their money better if they wait.

Just my 2 pesos.

How is anyone being punished if we were to release a new version even every week? Are you forced to buy? You just skip buying that version and wait until we release an upgrade you feel is worthy of your dollar.

We have received some emails BEGGING us to release. The emails say PLEASE RELEASE I am willing to pay, I know you have something better. So no matter what you do people are going to bust your balls.

But for sure you have to count the people NOT emailing you saying:

I have to pay again? I payed $40 last week and now i'm outdated and have to pay $40 extra? Its ok to release fast, but (my view) its incompatible to profit all times in this way.

You are free to run your business as you like, and as I understand, you should have to give some recognition to the old clients, specially the ones just bought K6.

[michiguel]

We don't have any specific plans yet. But we get gains frequently so there is almost always a stronger version of Komodo than the last release. The funny thing is that when we say so publicly I often get angry emails. One person who emails me frequently criticized me for making progress too soon after a release. I didn't know what to say so I almost said sarcastically that I'm really sorry we improved Komodo so quickly, maybe some jail time is in order or some kind of penalty we should have to pay.

Don't worry about it Don. Some people just don't understand that there are always development versions of an engine and that they don't know how to separate them from the public release.

But I still feel badly for them. We are conditioned by capitalism to constantly think we are "missing" out if we don't buy, buy, buy. And we always want the very latest and greatest gadget or toy. I am like that too.

The subscription idea solves a lot of that though.

Tcec Komodo is a development, stronger than K6. Its ok, nobody has to complain.

But if you release it now as K7, looking for another 40 $ there are some problems. The ones that does not bought the new, shinny K6 will now have K7 for 40$. Others, maybe old client from long time, recentrly paying 40 for K6 has now to pay again another 40$ for K7( for a 80$ total in one month aprox). And looks some unfair.

They get punished because they bought "too fast" K6.

Some people never buy a engine, other buy everything offered and most people buy time to time. If you release 4 versions in a year, many will not follow your pace (spend 4 x 40 = 120). And if you release so often some will not buy just because soon, (couple of months) will be another stronger version and will spend their money better if they wait.

Just my 2 pesos.

How is anyone being punished if we were to release a new version even every week? Are you forced to buy? You just skip buying that version and wait until we release an upgrade you feel is worthy of your dollar.

We have received some emails BEGGING us to release. The emails say PLEASE RELEASE I am willing to pay, I know you have something better. So no matter what you do people are going to bust your balls.

But for sure you have to count the people NOT emailing you saying:

I have to pay again? I payed $40 last week and now i'm outdated and have to pay $40 extra? Its ok to release fast, but (my view) its incompatible to profit all times in this way.

You are free to run your business as you like, and as I understand, you should have to give some recognition to the old clients, specially the ones just bought K6.

Imagine Komodo is $80, and you get 50% off with the next version. In fact, you get $40 back if you choose not to update! No questions asked. Not only that, bu also you get the $40 in advance when you buy the first time!

Miguel

[Don]

But for sure you have to count the people NOT emailing you saying:

I have to pay again? I payed $40 last week and now i'm outdated and have to pay $40 extra? Its ok to release fast, but (my view) its incompatible to profit all times in this way.

You are free to run your business as you like, and as I understand, you should have to give some recognition to the old clients, specially the ones just bought K6.

Everything I have written and and even said on chatwing during the TCEC should make it clear that we are sensitive to this issue. For example the subscription ideas is inspired by the very concept and I have posted that I didn't like people feeling cheated who purchase just before release - even though that is acceptable business practice. In fact I have even given people free versions who complained by email that they just purchased the previous version (when it was very recent.)

But to beg everyone's pardon here, if we release too frequently there is a very simple solution for you. Don't buy Komodo until YOU think there is enough of an improvement to justify it. So even if we released every single week, you are not "forced" to buy each version. YOU decide what you should buy, not me. I keep hearing the phrase, "now we HAVE to buy the next version." Really? Am I really that powerful that I can force you to do things that you consider wrong?

[carldaman]

But for sure you have to count the people NOT emailing you saying:

I have to pay again? I payed $40 last week and now i'm outdated and have to pay $40 extra? Its ok to release fast, but (my view) its incompatible to profit all times in this way.

You are free to run your business as you like, and as I understand, you should have to give some recognition to the old clients, specially the ones just bought K6.

Everything I have written and and even said on chatwing during the TCEC should make it clear that we are sensitive to this issue. For example the subscription ideas is inspired by the very concept and I have posted that I didn't like people feeling cheated who purchase just before release - even though that is acceptable business practice. In fact I have even given people free versions who complained by email that they just purchased the previous version (when it was very recent.)

But to beg everyone's pardon here, if we release too frequently there is a very simple solution for you. Don't buy Komodo until YOU think there is enough of an improvement to justify it. So even if we released every single week, you are not "forced" to buy each version. YOU decide what you should buy, not me. I keep hearing the phrase, "now we HAVE to buy the next version." Really? Am I really that powerful that I can force you to do things that you consider wrong?

I think a subscription service would make most people happy. That way, paying customers would also be able to keep up with open source freeware that is released frequently, and not feel somehow "cheated". You would probably get more people to buy Komodo this way and have good PR as well with your loyal/regular customers

Regards,
CL

[IGarcia]

But for sure you have to count the people NOT emailing you saying:

I have to pay again? I payed $40 last week and now i'm outdated and have to pay $40 extra? Its ok to release fast, but (my view) its incompatible to profit all times in this way.

You are free to run your business as you like, and as I understand, you should have to give some recognition to the old clients, specially the ones just bought K6.

Everything I have written and and even said on chatwing during the TCEC should make it clear that we are sensitive to this issue. For example the subscription ideas is inspired by the very concept and I have posted that I didn't like people feeling cheated who purchase just before release - even though that is acceptable business practice. In fact I have even given people free versions who complained by email that they just purchased the previous version (when it was very recent.)

But to beg everyone's pardon here, if we release too frequently there is a very simple solution for you. Don't buy Komodo until YOU think there is enough of an improvement to justify it. So even if we released every single week, you are not "forced" to buy each version. YOU decide what you should buy, not me. I keep hearing the phrase, "now we HAVE to buy the next version." Really? Am I really that powerful that I can force you to do things that you consider wrong?

Well, As I posted every time, Its your way to do things and you have the right besides what other people (some of then customers) this.

I'm not surprised with your way, as when you had K3 freeware getting help, feedback and bug reports to only see a K4 release COMERCIAL. I some time was close to ask you a K3.1 bug fix release for free as a way to give back something to the people that helped you without knowing the help given was going to be for a commercial release.

Now its a good time to bring the issue, because it was some sort of cheat (using your words) and now after a hight emotional K6 release, offering K7 too soon without any recognition is, again using your words, cheat.

Of course you always can do what you like.

[IGarcia]

We don't have any specific plans yet. But we get gains frequently so there is almost always a stronger version of Komodo than the last release. The funny thing is that when we say so publicly I often get angry emails. One person who emails me frequently criticized me for making progress too soon after a release. I didn't know what to say so I almost said sarcastically that I'm really sorry we improved Komodo so quickly, maybe some jail time is in order or some kind of penalty we should have to pay.

Don't worry about it Don. Some people just don't understand that there are always development versions of an engine and that they don't know how to separate them from the public release.

But I still feel badly for them. We are conditioned by capitalism to constantly think we are "missing" out if we don't buy, buy, buy. And we always want the very latest and greatest gadget or toy. I am like that too.

The subscription idea solves a lot of that though.

Tcec Komodo is a development, stronger than K6. Its ok, nobody has to complain.

But if you release it now as K7, looking for another 40 $ there are some problems. The ones that does not bought the new, shinny K6 will now have K7 for 40$. Others, maybe old client from long time, recentrly paying 40 for K6 has now to pay again another 40$ for K7( for a 80$ total in one month aprox). And looks some unfair.

They get punished because they bought "too fast" K6.

Some people never buy a engine, other buy everything offered and most people buy time to time. If you release 4 versions in a year, many will not follow your pace (spend 4 x 40 = 120). And if you release so often some will not buy just because soon, (couple of months) will be another stronger version and will spend their money better if they wait.

Just my 2 pesos.

How is anyone being punished if we were to release a new version even every week? Are you forced to buy? You just skip buying that version and wait until we release an upgrade you feel is worthy of your dollar.

We have received some emails BEGGING us to release. The emails say PLEASE RELEASE I am willing to pay, I know you have something better. So no matter what you do people are going to bust your balls.

But for sure you have to count the people NOT emailing you saying:

I have to pay again? I payed $40 last week and now i'm outdated and have to pay $40 extra? Its ok to release fast, but (my view) its incompatible to profit all times in this way.

You are free to run your business as you like, and as I understand, you should have to give some recognition to the old clients, specially the ones just bought K6.

Imagine Komodo is $80, and you get 50% off with the next version. In fact, you get $40 back if you choose not to update! No questions asked. Not only that, bu also you get the $40 in advance when you buy the first time!

Miguel

Miguel, All you write after your word "Imagine" is no sense. That was not offered. And, in Don benefit: he neither offered a minimum time for a next release.

BTW, its a good moment to say: 80$ for me (and probably others) is too much, and I'm not looking to twist Don wishes. Its a sane point of view, just telling this sort of things can move away customers.

I never pay for engines, specially if we have some great freeware and shareware version. And as exception I bought K6 to help with the illnes. Still, Im not looking for a free K7. I just don't care, as I never cared for houdini and that was one time buy, not for K6 but for Don.


But I really think many people where "touch" at the K6 release and more than one rushed to buy... You try to think what customers think about you, if few days after releasing K6 you release k7.

To be complete honest, I do think the *only* problem on releasing k7 now is because k6 release was presented as the last "Don" komodo. And announcing k7 now is like a joke after that.

PS: From the time I bought, I run K6 only once, a 2 games match against latest stockfish and the result was Stockfish won 1½-½

[Don]

We don't have any specific plans yet. But we get gains frequently so there is almost always a stronger version of Komodo than the last release. The funny thing is that when we say so publicly I often get angry emails. One person who emails me frequently criticized me for making progress too soon after a release. I didn't know what to say so I almost said sarcastically that I'm really sorry we improved Komodo so quickly, maybe some jail time is in order or some kind of penalty we should have to pay.

Don't worry about it Don. Some people just don't understand that there are always development versions of an engine and that they don't know how to separate them from the public release.

But I still feel badly for them. We are conditioned by capitalism to constantly think we are "missing" out if we don't buy, buy, buy. And we always want the very latest and greatest gadget or toy. I am like that too.

The subscription idea solves a lot of that though.

Tcec Komodo is a development, stronger than K6. Its ok, nobody has to complain.

But if you release it now as K7, looking for another 40 $ there are some problems. The ones that does not bought the new, shinny K6 will now have K7 for 40$. Others, maybe old client from long time, recentrly paying 40 for K6 has now to pay again another 40$ for K7( for a 80$ total in one month aprox). And looks some unfair.

They get punished because they bought "too fast" K6.

Some people never buy a engine, other buy everything offered and most people buy time to time. If you release 4 versions in a year, many will not follow your pace (spend 4 x 40 = 120). And if you release so often some will not buy just because soon, (couple of months) will be another stronger version and will spend their money better if they wait.

Just my 2 pesos.

How is anyone being punished if we were to release a new version even every week? Are you forced to buy? You just skip buying that version and wait until we release an upgrade you feel is worthy of your dollar.

We have received some emails BEGGING us to release. The emails say PLEASE RELEASE I am willing to pay, I know you have something better. So no matter what you do people are going to bust your balls.

But for sure you have to count the people NOT emailing you saying:

I have to pay again? I payed $40 last week and now i'm outdated and have to pay $40 extra? Its ok to release fast, but (my view) its incompatible to profit all times in this way.

You are free to run your business as you like, and as I understand, you should have to give some recognition to the old clients, specially the ones just bought K6.

Imagine Komodo is $80, and you get 50% off with the next version. In fact, you get $40 back if you choose not to update! No questions asked. Not only that, bu also you get the $40 in advance when you buy the first time!

Miguel

Miguel, All you write after your word "Imagine" is no sense. That was not offered. And, in Don benefit: he neither offered a minimum time for a next release.

BTW, its a good moment to say: 80$ for me (and probably others) is too much, and I'm not looking to twist Don wishes. Its a sane point of view, just telling this sort of things can move away customers.

I never pay for engines, specially if we have some great freeware and shareware version. And as exception I bought K6 to help with the illnes. Still, Im not looking for a free K7. I just don't care, as I never cared for houdini and that was one time buy, not for K6 but for Don.


But I really think many people where "touch" at the K6 release and more than one rushed to buy... You try to think what customers think about you, if few days after releasing K6 you release k7.

To be complete honest, I do think the *only* problem on releasing k7 now is because k6 release was presented as the last "Don" komodo. And announcing k7 now is like a joke after that.

PS: From the time I bought, I run K6 only once, a 2 games match against latest stockfish and the result was Stockfish won 1½-½

What I don't understand is why everyone is talking about Komodo 7 as if we are just about to release it. We never mentioned releasing a Komodo 7 any time soon - where is that coming from?

[syzygy]

I think a subscription service would make most people happy. That way, paying customers would also be able to keep up with open source freeware that is released frequently, and not feel somehow "cheated".

They will still feel cheated if the rate of progress in a particular week is not to their liking, not to speak of the weeks in which no development versions are released because of hard to catch bugs that are being chased.