A historical game

[peter]

A simple answer: black is still better after Qe2. Only that I would necessarily play Bf6 instead of Na7, as suggested by SF and Komodo, to prevent even g4.

Bf6 already is played in my game, when Na7 happens.

Btw., do you realize that playing g2-g4 is an attempt to save one's skin?

Why do you think I like h3?

Basing one's analysis just on the output of engines is easy, but do you understand how difficult it is to try to outplay 12-core engines like Komodo and SF entirely on your own?

Btw., 12 cores are nothing next to the power of intuition. (I am sure you recognize a famous Star Wars retort - 'The destruction of a planet is nothing next to the power of the Force)'

Dear Lyudmil, if you want to outplay 12 cores on your own you must not take the help of the engine for it, so you must not even look at its output to make and correct your plans accordingly, but that's what you seem to do here all the time: you give moves for the counterside choosen from your engine and if it runs on 12 cores it must be very short time of computing, and refute these by your own moves according to the one and the other output from the forum given, don't you?

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

A simple answer: black is still better after Qe2. Only that I would necessarily play Bf6 instead of Na7, as suggested by SF and Komodo, to prevent even g4.

Bf6 already is played in my game, when Na7 happens.

Btw., do you realize that playing g2-g4 is an attempt to save one's skin?

Why do you think I like h3?

Basing one's analysis just on the output of engines is easy, but do you understand how difficult it is to try to outplay 12-core engines like Komodo and SF entirely on your own?

Btw., 12 cores are nothing next to the power of intuition. (I am sure you recognize a famous Star Wars retort - 'The destruction of a planet is nothing next to the power of the Force)'

Dear Lyudmil, if you want to outplay 12 cores on your own you must not take the help of the engine for it, so you must not even look at its output to make and correct your plans accordingly, but that's what you seem to do here all the time: you give moves for the counterside choosen from your engine and if it runs on 12 cores it must be very short time of computing, and refute these by your own moves according to the one and the other output from the forum given, don't you?

[d][d]r1n1q1rk/1ppn2b1/p2p3p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/5N1P/1B1N1PP1/R1RQ2K1 w - - 0 1

Look at your line in bold, starting from the above position. I suggest that instead of Qe2 Na7, Qe2 Bf6 is played.

[d]r1n1q1rk/1ppn4/p2p1b1p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/5N1P/1B1NQPP1/R1R3K1 w - - 0 8

Who is better here, relying on 12 cores, Komodo and SF?

Yes, I check my moves with SF, not to make an obvious tactical mistake. I have just 4 cores and use very little time for analysis.

Please note, that I do not say I will win this position on my own (which probably I would still do under the right conditions), all I am saying is the position is won for black, or close to be won.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

I meant 15... f4 16.c5 line. You havent't given a move sequence, but a plan of placing N on b5 (reminiscent of some Benoni games) and a final position.

15...f4 16.c5 Nc8 and black is considerably better. The storming pawns on the king side are faster.

[zullil]

[d]r2qr1k1/1pp1n1b1/p2p1n1p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/5N1P/1B1N1PP1/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 4

Will reply with SF limited to depth 35, instead of my usual depth 40. In this case, even depth 35 took a long time, as SF "struggled" to decide between Rc1 and an immediate c5:

Code: Select all

info depth 35 seldepth 54 multipv 1 score cp 87 nodes 21815789673 nps 19506807 time 1118368 pv a1c1 e7c8 c4c5 a8b8 d2c4 c8a7 d1d3 f6h7 f3d2 h7f6 c1c2 d8d7 f2f3 h6h5 c5d6 c7d6 c4b6 d7f7 d2c4 b8d8 c4a3 g5g4 e1c1 e8e7 g1h1 g4g3 h1g1 g7h6 d3e2 h6g7 e2c4 f7g6 c4b3 a7b5 a3b5 a6b5
bestmove a1c1 ponder e7c8

[d]r2qr1k1/1pp1n1b1/p2p1n1p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/5N1P/1B1N1PP1/2RQR1K1 b - - 1 4

[peter]

Look at your line in bold, starting from the above position.

"My line in bold" is neither mine nor the first choice of Stockfish. It was second best at a position you played against SF going for White with the Queen from d1 to b3 and back to d1 within 5 moves.
The MV- output I gave at this position was only to show that even SF prefered Qe2 there before your only seventh best evaluated Ne1 even having lost the tempo Qd1-b3-d1 unecessarily already.

If you want to play "my line" take the variant of SF against K8 starting with 16.h3.
If you don't like Kh8 instantly there, tell me what else.

And one thing more to your question if I knew how difficult it was to win by oneself against 12 cores, which I do know quite well btw., it's mainly a question of the position you start from, I'd say.
If it's a clealry won one, that should help a lot anyhow, shouldn't it?

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

[d]r2qr1k1/1pp1n1b1/p2p1n1p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/5N1P/1B1N1PP1/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 4

Will reply with SF limited to depth 35, instead of my usual depth 40. In this case, even depth 35 took a long time, as SF "struggled" to decide between Rc1 and an immediate c5:

Code: Select all

info depth 35 seldepth 54 multipv 1 score cp 87 nodes 21815789673 nps 19506807 time 1118368 pv a1c1 e7c8 c4c5 a8b8 d2c4 c8a7 d1d3 f6h7 f3d2 h7f6 c1c2 d8d7 f2f3 h6h5 c5d6 c7d6 c4b6 d7f7 d2c4 b8d8 c4a3 g5g4 e1c1 e8e7 g1h1 g4g3 h1g1 g7h6 d3e2 h6g7 e2c4 f7g6 c4b3 a7b5 a3b5 a6b5
bestmove a1c1 ponder e7c8

[d]r2qr1k1/1pp1n1b1/p2p1n1p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/5N1P/1B1N1PP1/2RQR1K1 b - - 1 4

Will reply in blitz mode, as playing simultaneously you and Peter, analysing at the same time and minding your other business is not an easy task.

My move is Kh8.

[d]r2qr2k/1pp1n1b1/p2p1n1p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/1Q3N1P/1B1N1PP1/2R1R1K1 b - - 0 2

Interesting, if I can win a blitz simul against SF and Komodo?

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Look at your line in bold, starting from the above position.

"My line in bold" is neither mine nor the first choice of Stockfish. It was second best at a position you played against SF going for White with the Queen from d1 to b3 and back to d1 within 5 moves.
The MV- output I gave at this position was only to show that even SF prefered Qe2 there before your only seventh best evaluated Ne1 even having lost the tempo Qd1-b3-d1 unecessarily already.

If you want to play "my line" take the variant of SF against K8 starting with 16.h3.
If you don't like Kh8 instantly there, tell me what else.

And one thing more to your question if I knew how difficult it was to win by oneself against 12 cores, which I do know quite well btw., it's mainly a question of the position you start from, I'd say.
If it's a clealry won one, that should help a lot anyhow, shouldn't it?

SF playing the queen to b3 and back had tactical connotations, sacrificing on g5 and checking with the queen on h5.

Interesting why SF can not win a line it evaluates with +80cps?

Just tell me what position after 15...f4 we start from, and we can play the game.

[zullil]

[d]r2qr1k1/1pp1n1b1/p2p1n1p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/5N1P/1B1N1PP1/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 4

Will reply with SF limited to depth 35, instead of my usual depth 40. In this case, even depth 35 took a long time, as SF "struggled" to decide between Rc1 and an immediate c5:

Code: Select all

info depth 35 seldepth 54 multipv 1 score cp 87 nodes 21815789673 nps 19506807 time 1118368 pv a1c1 e7c8 c4c5 a8b8 d2c4 c8a7 d1d3 f6h7 f3d2 h7f6 c1c2 d8d7 f2f3 h6h5 c5d6 c7d6 c4b6 d7f7 d2c4 b8d8 c4a3 g5g4 e1c1 e8e7 g1h1 g4g3 h1g1 g7h6 d3e2 h6g7 e2c4 f7g6 c4b3 a7b5 a3b5 a6b5
bestmove a1c1 ponder e7c8

[d]r2qr1k1/1pp1n1b1/p2p1n1p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/5N1P/1B1N1PP1/2RQR1K1 b - - 1 4

Will reply in blitz mode, as playing simultaneously you and Peter, analysing at the same time and minding your other business is not an easy task.

My move is Kh8.

[d]r2qr2k/1pp1n1b1/p2p1n1p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/1Q3N1P/1B1N1PP1/2R1R1K1 b - - 0 2

Interesting, if I can win a blitz simul against SF and Komodo?

I'll resign on behalf of Stockfish. Please concentrate on the other matters. In other words, I should probably focus on my real work now! Good luck again Komodo.

[peter]

If you want to play "my line" take the variant of SF against K8 starting with 16.h3.

Just tell me what position after 15...f4 we start from, and we can play the game.

As just in the posting you just answered to, as in my first one and in my second one written, to repeat it for the fourth time:
15...f4 16.h3.

You can go on from any following moves of the game posted in my second answer to you between SF and K8

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. d3 d6 5. c3 g6 6. O-O Bg7 7. Nbd2 O-O 8. Re1 Re8 9. d4 Bd7 10. d5 Ne7 11. Bxd7 Nxd7 12. a4 h6 13. a5 a6 14. b4 f5 15. c4 f4 16. h3 Kh8 17. Bb2 Rg8 18. Qe2 Nc8 19. Rec1 Qe7 20. b5 Bf6 21. Ne1 h5 22. Nd3 Na7 23. Rab1

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 43&t=54391

or deviate whereever you want to for Black

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

[d]r2qr1k1/1pp1n1b1/p2p1n1p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/5N1P/1B1N1PP1/R2QR1K1 w - - 0 4

Will reply with SF limited to depth 35, instead of my usual depth 40. In this case, even depth 35 took a long time, as SF "struggled" to decide between Rc1 and an immediate c5:

Code: Select all

info depth 35 seldepth 54 multipv 1 score cp 87 nodes 21815789673 nps 19506807 time 1118368 pv a1c1 e7c8 c4c5 a8b8 d2c4 c8a7 d1d3 f6h7 f3d2 h7f6 c1c2 d8d7 f2f3 h6h5 c5d6 c7d6 c4b6 d7f7 d2c4 b8d8 c4a3 g5g4 e1c1 e8e7 g1h1 g4g3 h1g1 g7h6 d3e2 h6g7 e2c4 f7g6 c4b3 a7b5 a3b5 a6b5
bestmove a1c1 ponder e7c8

[d]r2qr1k1/1pp1n1b1/p2p1n1p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/5N1P/1B1N1PP1/2RQR1K1 b - - 1 4

Will reply in blitz mode, as playing simultaneously you and Peter, analysing at the same time and minding your other business is not an easy task.

My move is Kh8.

[d]r2qr2k/1pp1n1b1/p2p1n1p/P2Pp1p1/1PP1Pp2/1Q3N1P/1B1N1PP1/2R1R1K1 b - - 0 2

Interesting, if I can win a blitz simul against SF and Komodo?

I'll resign on behalf of Stockfish. Please concentrate on the other matters. In other words, I should probably focus on my real work now! Good luck again Komodo.

OK, but feel free to turn back to the position, whenever you have time.
The point was to clarify which side has the advantage.