Only use an Engine if you can NOT solve it !

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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MikeGL
Posts: 1010
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:49 pm

Re: Only use an Engine if you can NOT solve it !

Post by MikeGL »

MonteCarlo wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:12 am What a fascinating coincidence.....

Image
Could be a composition. Would be interested to see the complete game played online.
I told my wife that a husband is like a fine wine; he gets better with age. The next day, she locked me in the cellar.
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Only use an Engine if you can NOT solve it !

Post by Chessqueen »

MikeGL wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:28 am
MonteCarlo wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:12 am What a fascinating coincidence.....

Image
Could be a composition. Would be interested to see the complete game played online.
Who Played this game, it almost look like my games, and what time control those players used Rapid, standard time control, was it played by GM ( I doubt it ) or Novice players less than Master like us. How did White Queen got stuck on a3? completely out of place , you mentioned that this game was actually played online, so it must be played in the last 25 years with the introduction of this internet :?: I would like to know all this questions :?: How did White forced Black to get his pawns structure specially on the King side so similar to my pawns, How many moves was this game since I move my Queen several times after I saw the possibility of him and waiting for him weather to trade his Rooks which was the best move or place it on the d3 square :?:
Chessqueen
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Re: Only use an Engine if you can NOT solve it !

Post by Chessqueen »

[quote=Chessqueen post_id=877957 time=1609390241 user_id=10732]
[quote=MikeGL post_id=877940 time=1609385324 user_id=5997]
[quote=MonteCarlo post_id=877909 time=1609377161 user_id=8437]
What a fascinating coincidence.....

I finally found an engine that I can play even with specially during this time of Pandemic COVi19, but I will play a few more games since this little pearl of an engine keep my brain thinking, and I will figure out how to beat it :roll:

[Event "My New Challenger"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2020.12.31"]
[Round "1"]
[White "ChessQueen"]
[Black "Sargon-engine"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "1900"]
[ECO "D21"]
[Opening "QGA"]
[Time "22:47:55"]
[Variation "3.Nf3"]
[WhiteElo "1900"]
[TimeControl "600+3"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "86"]


1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. Nf3 Be6 4. e4 c6 5. Nc3 Nf6 6. Ng5 Qa5 7. Nxe6 fxe6
8. e5 Nd5 9. Bxc4 Nxc3 10. Qd2 Na6 11. Qxc3 Qxc3+ 12. bxc3 Nc7 13. a4 Nd5
14. a5 O-O-O 15. Bd2 b5 16. axb6 axb6 17. Be2 Kb7 18. O-O g6 19. Rfb1 Nc7
20. Bf3 Bg7 21. Bg5 Rhe8 22. Be3 Nd5 23. Bd2 Nc7 24. Rd1 Ra8 25. c4 Rxa1
26. Rxa1 Rd8 27. Be3 h6 28. Rb1 Rf8 29. d5 cxd5 30. Rxb6+ Ka8 31. cxd5 exd5
32. Rxg6 Bxe5 33. Rxh6 e6 34. Rh7 Kb7 35. h4 Kc6 36. h5 Kd6 37. h6 Kc6 38.
Kf1 Ra8 39. Re7 Ra1+ 40. Ke2 Ra2+ 41. Kf1 Ra1+ 42. Ke2 Ra2+ 43. Kf1 Ra1+
{3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2
Pio
Posts: 338
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:42 pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Only use an Engine if you can NOT solve it !

Post by Pio »

Chessqueen wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:11 am
M ANSARI wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:39 am Never mind it seems to have been a glitch, I see it now on b3 ... somehow it did not show without several page refreshes. This is a simple tactic and would rate around 1400 to 1500 ELO on the chess.com tactics trainer as the pattern is very obvious. I think this type of tactic is never missed by any reasonably strong player even at bullet, but that doesn't mean that it can't be missed sometimes by even the top GM on earth . Chess blindness can sometimes be incredible ... I mean look Magnus Carlsen, by far the strongest player ever created by planet earth actually missed a completely winning simple tactic here. The thing is that MC was not the only strong player to miss it .. Aronian also missed it!

MC actually played Rxd4 ??? and ended up drawing the game.
[d]3r2k1/pp1q1pp1/2pr3p/6bQ/3P4/1BP2P2/P3R1PP/4R1K1 w - - 0 1
I Just gave it to few of the players that I know on chess.com who are rated average around 1850 and told them to solve it by using a chess clock with 30 seconds, out of 10 players only 2 solved it without using any engine , but you simply did not see it until you used your engine, since this position has been here for at least 8 hours, which does NOT need page refreshes, anyway since only two who tried to solve it honestly and solved it, tell me that this tactical puzzle is rated for club players around 1850 to 1950.

[d]8/8/8/1R1pk1p1/3r4/P2R1P1r/1PK5/8 w - - 0 0
But with your position, there is NO tactical shot, all that is required is to know what piece to move or take with, Black simply has to play Rxd3 and Black is winning immediately :roll:
The tactics is not obvious at all for me if you don’t know there is tactics available in the position. I am rated 2250 in lichens tactics and was for a time rated over 2300 in 30+ minute games. I have never read a chess book or had any training so I am probably not very representative. Of course when I knew there was tactics available, I saw it too but wood have absolutely missed it in a 3 minutes game but might??? Have got it right in a 10+ minute game. The MC blunder is really a blunder. I saw it immediately within a second and would probably never miss it even in a 5 minute game. It is however understandable that they missed it because it is so obvious that they don’t think the other player would make such a mistake. It is also good to see the previous moves when trying to solve a puzzle. Sometimes it makes the puzzle easier (since you usually move the same piece twice or use a piece that has gotten new possibilities after the previous moves.
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
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Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Only use an Engine if you can NOT solve it !

Post by Chessqueen »

Pio wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:51 pm
Chessqueen wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:11 am
M ANSARI wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:39 am
[d]8/8/8/1R1pk1p1/3r4/P2R1P1r/1PK5/8 w - - 0 0
But with your position, there is NO tactical shot, all that is required is to know what piece to move or take with, Black simply has to play Rxd3 and Black is winning immediately :roll:
The tactics is not obvious at all for me if you don’t know there is tactics available in the position. I am rated 2250 in lichens tactics and was for a time rated over 2300 in 30+ minute games. I have never read a chess book or had any training so I am probably not very representative. Of course when I knew there was tactics available, I saw it too but wood have absolutely missed it in a 3 minutes game but might??? Have got it right in a 10+ minute game. The MC blunder is really a blunder. I saw it immediately within a second and would probably never miss it even in a 5 minute game. It is however understandable that they missed it because it is so obvious that they don’t think the other player would make such a mistake. It is also good to see the previous moves when trying to solve a puzzle. Sometimes it makes the puzzle easier (since you usually move the same piece twice or use a piece that has gotten new possibilities after the previous moves.
I finally found an engine that I can play when a human is NOT around, this is an excellent old engine for Patzer like myself specially during this time of COVi19. I forgot to provide detail I am using the New i9 computer from my brother.

[Event "My New Challenger"]
[Date "2020.12.31"]
[Round "1"]
[White "ChessQueen"]
[Black "Sargon-engine"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "1900"]
[ECO "D21"]
[Opening "QGA"]
[Time "22:47:55"]
[Variation "3.Nf3"]
[WhiteElo "1900"]
[TimeControl "600+3"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "86"]


1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. Nf3 Be6 4. e4 c6 5. Nc3 Nf6 6. Ng5 Qa5 7. Nxe6 fxe6
8. e5 Nd5 9. Bxc4 Nxc3 10. Qd2 Na6 11. Qxc3 Qxc3+ 12. bxc3 Nc7 13. a4 Nd5
14. a5 O-O-O 15. Bd2 b5 16. axb6 axb6 17. Be2 Kb7 18. O-O g6 19. Rfb1 Nc7
20. Bf3 Bg7 21. Bg5 Rhe8 22. Be3 Nd5 23. Bd2 Nc7 24. Rd1 Ra8 25. c4 Rxa1
26. Rxa1 Rd8 27. Be3 h6 28. Rb1 Rf8 29. d5 cxd5 30. Rxb6+ Ka8 31. cxd5 exd5
32. Rxg6 Bxe5 33. Rxh6 e6 34. Rh7 Kb7 35. h4 Kc6 36. h5 Kd6 37. h6 Kc6 38.
Kf1 Ra8 39. Re7 Ra1+ 40. Ke2 Ra2+ 41. Kf1 Ra1+ 42. Ke2 Ra2+ 43. Kf1 Ra1+
{3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2

Here is my 2nd chess challenge I am starting to figure how to beat Sargon, simply avoiding possible tactics and to use every little knowledge that I have in creating advantage in the Middle game and Endgame stage :roll: :mrgreen: :roll:

[Event "My Next Chess Challenger"]
[Date "2021.01.01"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Sargon-engine"]
[Black "ChessQueen"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "1900"]
[ECO "B30"]
[Opening "Sicilian"]
[Time "08:06:51"]
[Variation "2...Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6"]
[WhiteElo "1800"]
[TimeControl "600+3"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "81"]


1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Bc4 d6 5. O-O Nd4 6. e5 dxe5 7. Nxe5 Be6
8. Bxe6 fxe6 9. d3 b5 10. Bd2 Qd6 11. Bf4 Qa6 12. Ne4 Nxe4 13. dxe4 Qb7 14.
Qh5+ g6 15. Nxg6 hxg6 16. Qxh8 Ne2+ 17. Kh1 Nxf4 18. Qe5 Bh6 19. g3 Nh5 20.
Qxe6 Nf6 21. Rfe1 Rd8 22. f4 Rd2 23. Rac1 c4 24. b3 Rd4 25. Rcd1 Rxd1 26.
Rxd1 Qxe4+ 27. Qxe4 Nxe4 28. Kg2 c3 29. a4 bxa4 30. Rd4 axb3 31. Rxe4 b2
32. Re1 a5 33. Kf3 a4 34. g4 a3 35. f5 gxf5 36. gxf5 a2 37. f6 a1=Q 38.
Rxe7+ Kf8 39. Rh7 Qf1+ 40. Ke4 b1=Q 41. Rh8+ {White resigns} *
Metaphysician
Posts: 26
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Full name: Neil Kulick

Re: Only use an Engine if you can NOT solve it !

Post by Metaphysician »

Again, in the position I commented on, Qh7+ wins a rook. If Kg1, then the rook falls on d3. White can both lose the rook and blunder into mate after Rh3: ... Rd1+; Kh2 Rh1+!; Kxh1 Qxh3+ mating; or if white plays Kg3 instead of Kxh1, then ...Qh4+! Rxh4+ gxh4+ is mate.

When solving a tactics problem, look for forcing moves (usually checks or captures).
Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: Only use an Engine if you can NOT solve it !

Post by Chessqueen »

Metaphysician wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:30 pm Again, in the position I commented on, Qh7+ wins a rook. If Kg1, then the rook falls on d3. White can both lose the rook and blunder into mate after Rh3: ... Rd1+; Kh2 Rh1+!; Kxh1 Qxh3+ mating; or if white plays Kg3 instead of Kxh1, then ...Qh4+! Rxh4+ gxh4+ is mate.

When solving a tactics problem, look for forcing moves (usually checks or captures).

You were correct the first time. Here was the other draw game that I played versus Sargon

[pgn][Event "My New Challenger"]
[Date "2021.01.01"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Sargon-engine"]
[Black "ChessQueen"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "1900"]
[ECO "C46"]
[Opening "Three Knights"]
[Time "13:10:15"]
[Variation "Winawer Defence"]
[WhiteElo "1850"]
[TimeControl "600+3"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "91"]


1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Nc3 f5 4. d4 fxe4 5. Nxe5 Nf6 6. Bg5 Bb4 7. Be2 Qe7
8. Nxc6 dxc6 9. O-O h6 10. Bxf6 gxf6 11. Bh5+ Kf8 12. Re1 f5 13. a3 Bd6 14.
Kh1 Be6 15. g3 Qg5 16. f4 Qf6 17. Nb1 b6 18. c3 a5 19. Nd2 a4 20. Kg2 c5
21. dxc5 Bxc5 22. Qe2 Bd5 23. Nc4 Kg7 24. Ne5 Rhd8 25. Rad1 Rd6 26. c4 Be6
27. Rxd6 cxd6 28. Nc6 Rc8 29. Na7 Rc7 30. Nb5 Rc8 31. Rd1 Bd7 32. Qd2 Bc6
33. Qc2 Ra8 34. Nc7 Rc8 35. Nd5 Qe6 36. Qc3+ Kg8 37. Nf6+ Kf8 38. Nd5 Kg8
39. Nf6+ Kf8 40. Nd5 Bxd5 41. cxd5 Qd7 42. Qf6+ Kg8 43. Qg6+ Kf8 44. Qf6+
Kg8 45. Qg6+ Kf8 46. Qf6+ {3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]