Does playing with White without the e2 or d2 pawn make it even?

[Chessqueen]

Hi.

Interesting.
I would have thought that a pawn is worth a lot more than moving first.

Greetings.

Of course a pawn, especially d or e, worth more than first move, 49% are draw, probably 51% are win for Black, furthermore imbalance would be much greater with stronger player. However, how many games are been played here?

I've run hundreds of games between top engines at full strength at various time controls with one White pawn removed. If it's a rook pawn, most of the games are drawn, Black winning most of the others. If it's f2 or g2, must of the games are lost by White. These results are to be expected, since there is major compensation with rook pawn off, and none at all with f2 or g2 off. But with b2, c2, d2, or e2 removed, White usually draws nearly half the games, almost never wins a game, and loses the other half. It's not even particularly clear whether more time or threads helps White to draw or helps Black to win more. In all four cases, White has the first move plus a little extra mobility for the pawn, and although central pawns are more valuable, their removal gives more added mobility than c2 or b2, so all four cases are quite similar, White has maybe 0.3 pawn compensation, and being down 0.7 pawn is thought to be right at the win/draw line. If I had to bet, I would bet on Black to win rather than on White to draw, but all four positions are so near the loss/draw line that no one can tell whether they are lost or drawn with perfect play. Perhaps some of the four are drawn and others are lost. This means that all four of these positions are nearly ideal for Armageddon chess, in this case with White getting the draw odds. The only problem with using these positions for engine testing (with Armageddon rule) is that you can only play eight games before having to repeat the same pairing, and there are no opening books to provide variety, so you either have to generate them or just rely on MP for variety. This is very similar to the "No Black Short Castling" Armageddon chess promoted by myself and S. Pohl a while ago, which is also right on the win/draw line. Whether Black forfeiting short castling or White removing a pawn is more like normal chess is a subjective matter, hard to call.

The Main question to you Mr. Larry Kaufman is, do you believe that Komodo Dragon can beat Carlsen at T/C of 90 Minutes plus 10 seconds Bonus with the f2 pawn Odds? I will first test Stockfish at full strength vs Komodo Dragon with a limit Elo set to 2780 simulating the World Chess Champion Carlsen, to see what happen, can you predict the winner ?


First point, Carlsen's FIDE rating is 2864, why are you using 2780? Second point, if you are trying to simulate Carlsen at 90 minute chess, you need to raise the rating since the rating is for 15' + 10" Rapid, maybe by 150 elo to 3014. But without even looking at simulations, I can tell you what the result of the proposed match with Carlsen would be. He would never (or almost never) win a single game, but would get a decent percentage of draws. The f2 handicap is "winning" for Black, but only by a small margin it only takes one or two small errors by Black to allow White to get within drawing range. The difference in strength between Komodo Dragon and any human, even Carlsen, is so large that it is almost impossible for Black to keep the win in hand. As to whether Carlsen would get more draws than Dragon gets wins, that is hard to say and of course also depends on whether Carlsen or Dragon is rewarded or punished for draws (i.e. Contempt setting for Dragon).

Sorry it was a typo I meant to write 2880, But just realized that in T/C of game in 90 Minutes I had to increase the Limit Playing Strength to Elo = 3000 of Komodo Dragon which I did for this game, and next game I will set it to 3014 as you recommended. Another question that I have for you Mr. Kaufman, if it is between 2 human players what would be the difference in Elo that the stronger player has to be in order for him to give lets say the e2 or d4 pawn to his weakest opponent and consistently beat him 3 games out of 5 with a T/C of game in 15/10. Would you say at least 200 Elo difference ? Do you believe that you can offer another human opponent rated around 2000 the e2 or d4 pawn and still get several draws against him?

I don't think it matters much whether the players are humans or engines. Giving the e2 or d2 odds but with White winning draws (Armageddon scoring) is almost an even proposition, so I would bet on the stronger player (assuming a statistically meaningful elo difference, maybe 25 elo or more) to "win" a match as White with these rules. First move plus draw odds plus open diagonals or files for queen and bishop adds up to roughly enough compensation for the pawn. The draw margin is big in chess, unfortunately.

With all due respect Mr. Kaufman, I honestly do NOT believe that 25 Elo difference is enough to hold another human player with the e2 or d2 Odds, but computer engines surely can hold another engine to many draws. The minimum that a human need is at least 75 Elo to get 47% of draws with the e2 or d2 pawn Odds. More testing needs to be done in chess clubs

[Chessqueen]

Stockfish still won with Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 playing Limit strength set to 3014, I guess that at Playing Limit strength set to 3050 Stockfish would start losing to Komodo Dragon 2.6.1. Next game will be at 3050. What do you predict ?

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.05.18"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stockfish_22050407_x64_avx2"]
[Black "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3014"]
[Time "17:49:56"]
[WhiteElo "3680"]
[TimeControl "5400+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP1PP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "89"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nxd5 4. d4 e6 5. Nc3 c5 6. Bb5+ Nc6 7. O-O cxd4
8. Nxd4 Bc5 9. Na4 Bxd4+ 10. Qxd4 O-O 11. Bxc6 bxc6 12. b3 f6 13. c4 e5 14.
Qe4 Ne7 15. Ba3 Bf5 16. Qf3 Bg6 17. Rad1 Qe8 18. Qh3 Rf7 19. Nc5 h6 20. Rd6
Kh7 21. Ne6 Rc8 22. Bc5 a5 23. Be3 Be4 24. g4 Ng8 25. g5 Qe7 26. gxf6 gxf6
27. Rfd1 a4 28. Nc5 Rg7+ 29. Kf2 Bc2 30. R1d2 axb3 31. axb3 Bg6 32. Rd7 Re8
33. Rxe7 Rgxe7 34. Rd6 f5 35. Bc1 f4 36. Bb2 Rf8 37. Nd7 Ra8 38. Nxe5 Rae8
39. Qg4 Bb1 40. Qh5 Bc2 41. Re6 f3 42. Nf7 Nf6 43. Qxh6+ Kg8 44. Qh8+ Kxf7
45. Rxf6# *[/pgn]

[lkaufman]

Stockfish still won with Komodo Dragon 2.6.1 playing Limit strength set to 3014, I guess that at Playing Limit strength set to 3050 Stockfish would start losing to Komodo Dragon 2.6.1. Next game will be at 3050. What do you predict ?

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.05.18"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stockfish_22050407_x64_avx2"]
[Black "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3014"]
[Time "17:49:56"]
[WhiteElo "3680"]
[TimeControl "5400+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP1PP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "89"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nxd5 4. d4 e6 5. Nc3 c5 6. Bb5+ Nc6 7. O-O cxd4
8. Nxd4 Bc5 9. Na4 Bxd4+ 10. Qxd4 O-O 11. Bxc6 bxc6 12. b3 f6 13. c4 e5 14.
Qe4 Ne7 15. Ba3 Bf5 16. Qf3 Bg6 17. Rad1 Qe8 18. Qh3 Rf7 19. Nc5 h6 20. Rd6
Kh7 21. Ne6 Rc8 22. Bc5 a5 23. Be3 Be4 24. g4 Ng8 25. g5 Qe7 26. gxf6 gxf6
27. Rfd1 a4 28. Nc5 Rg7+ 29. Kf2 Bc2 30. R1d2 axb3 31. axb3 Bg6 32. Rd7 Re8
33. Rxe7 Rgxe7 34. Rd6 f5 35. Bc1 f4 36. Bb2 Rf8 37. Nd7 Ra8 38. Nxe5 Rae8
39. Qg4 Bb1 40. Qh5 Bc2 41. Re6 f3 42. Nf7 Nf6 43. Qxh6+ Kg8 44. Qh8+ Kxf7
45. Rxf6# *[/pgn]

There is still a gap of several hundred elo. f2 handicap is perhaps about 250 to 300 elo handicap, so White will still be a big underdog, rarely winning but getting lots of draws. We have seen again and again that engines can give other strong but weaker (in this case deliberately weakened) engines surprisingly large handicaps. Probably Stockfish could even give the last pre-NNUE version of Stockfish (at full strength) the f2 handicap and make a fairly even score in rapid games.

[lkaufman]

Hi.

Interesting.
I would have thought that a pawn is worth a lot more than moving first.

Greetings.

Of course a pawn, especially d or e, worth more than first move, 49% are draw, probably 51% are win for Black, furthermore imbalance would be much greater with stronger player. However, how many games are been played here?

I've run hundreds of games between top engines at full strength at various time controls with one White pawn removed. If it's a rook pawn, most of the games are drawn, Black winning most of the others. If it's f2 or g2, must of the games are lost by White. These results are to be expected, since there is major compensation with rook pawn off, and none at all with f2 or g2 off. But with b2, c2, d2, or e2 removed, White usually draws nearly half the games, almost never wins a game, and loses the other half. It's not even particularly clear whether more time or threads helps White to draw or helps Black to win more. In all four cases, White has the first move plus a little extra mobility for the pawn, and although central pawns are more valuable, their removal gives more added mobility than c2 or b2, so all four cases are quite similar, White has maybe 0.3 pawn compensation, and being down 0.7 pawn is thought to be right at the win/draw line. If I had to bet, I would bet on Black to win rather than on White to draw, but all four positions are so near the loss/draw line that no one can tell whether they are lost or drawn with perfect play. Perhaps some of the four are drawn and others are lost. This means that all four of these positions are nearly ideal for Armageddon chess, in this case with White getting the draw odds. The only problem with using these positions for engine testing (with Armageddon rule) is that you can only play eight games before having to repeat the same pairing, and there are no opening books to provide variety, so you either have to generate them or just rely on MP for variety. This is very similar to the "No Black Short Castling" Armageddon chess promoted by myself and S. Pohl a while ago, which is also right on the win/draw line. Whether Black forfeiting short castling or White removing a pawn is more like normal chess is a subjective matter, hard to call.

The Main question to you Mr. Larry Kaufman is, do you believe that Komodo Dragon can beat Carlsen at T/C of 90 Minutes plus 10 seconds Bonus with the f2 pawn Odds? I will first test Stockfish at full strength vs Komodo Dragon with a limit Elo set to 2780 simulating the World Chess Champion Carlsen, to see what happen, can you predict the winner ?


First point, Carlsen's FIDE rating is 2864, why are you using 2780? Second point, if you are trying to simulate Carlsen at 90 minute chess, you need to raise the rating since the rating is for 15' + 10" Rapid, maybe by 150 elo to 3014. But without even looking at simulations, I can tell you what the result of the proposed match with Carlsen would be. He would never (or almost never) win a single game, but would get a decent percentage of draws. The f2 handicap is "winning" for Black, but only by a small margin it only takes one or two small errors by Black to allow White to get within drawing range. The difference in strength between Komodo Dragon and any human, even Carlsen, is so large that it is almost impossible for Black to keep the win in hand. As to whether Carlsen would get more draws than Dragon gets wins, that is hard to say and of course also depends on whether Carlsen or Dragon is rewarded or punished for draws (i.e. Contempt setting for Dragon).

Sorry it was a typo I meant to write 2880, But just realized that in T/C of game in 90 Minutes I had to increase the Limit Playing Strength to Elo = 3000 of Komodo Dragon which I did for this game, and next game I will set it to 3014 as you recommended. Another question that I have for you Mr. Kaufman, if it is between 2 human players what would be the difference in Elo that the stronger player has to be in order for him to give lets say the e2 or d4 pawn to his weakest opponent and consistently beat him 3 games out of 5 with a T/C of game in 15/10. Would you say at least 200 Elo difference ? Do you believe that you can offer another human opponent rated around 2000 the e2 or d4 pawn and still get several draws against him?

I don't think it matters much whether the players are humans or engines. Giving the e2 or d2 odds but with White winning draws (Armageddon scoring) is almost an even proposition, so I would bet on the stronger player (assuming a statistically meaningful elo difference, maybe 25 elo or more) to "win" a match as White with these rules. First move plus draw odds plus open diagonals or files for queen and bishop adds up to roughly enough compensation for the pawn. The draw margin is big in chess, unfortunately.

With all due respect Mr. Kaufman, I honestly do NOT believe that 25 Elo difference is enough to hold another human player with the e2 or d2 Odds, but computer engines surely can hold another engine to many draws. The minimum that a human need is at least 75 Elo to get 47% of draws with the e2 or d2 pawn Odds. More testing needs to be done in chess clubs

Consider that with Evans' Gambit, where White gains just one tempo for the pawn sacrifice, actual results (human or engine) and engine evals are about even. In the case of e2 odds, White is algo geting draw odds, which is huge. Of course the center pawn is more valuable than the "b" pawn, but the difference is not that great, nothing like draw odds. I don't see whyi White's chances "gambiting" the e2 pawn but getting draw odds should be worse than his chances in the Evans' Gambit without the draw odds. There are lots of gambits which aren't "good", but are still good enough to hold half the time even at the highest level if a draw is the goal. .

[Chessqueen]

Hi.

Interesting.
I would have thought that a pawn is worth a lot more than moving first.

Greetings.

Of course a pawn, especially d or e, worth more than first move, 49% are draw, probably 51% are win for Black, furthermore imbalance would be much greater with stronger player. However, how many games are been played here?

I've run hundreds of games between top engines at full strength at various time controls with one White pawn removed. If it's a rook pawn, most of the games are drawn, Black winning most of the others. If it's f2 or g2, must of the games are lost by White. These results are to be expected, since there is major compensation with rook pawn off, and none at all with f2 or g2 off. But with b2, c2, d2, or e2 removed, White usually draws nearly half the games, almost never wins a game, and loses the other half. It's not even particularly clear whether more time or threads helps White to draw or helps Black to win more. In all four cases, White has the first move plus a little extra mobility for the pawn, and although central pawns are more valuable, their removal gives more added mobility than c2 or b2, so all four cases are quite similar, White has maybe 0.3 pawn compensation, and being down 0.7 pawn is thought to be right at the win/draw line. If I had to bet, I would bet on Black to win rather than on White to draw, but all four positions are so near the loss/draw line that no one can tell whether they are lost or drawn with perfect play. Perhaps some of the four are drawn and others are lost. This means that all four of these positions are nearly ideal for Armageddon chess, in this case with White getting the draw odds. The only problem with using these positions for engine testing (with Armageddon rule) is that you can only play eight games before having to repeat the same pairing, and there are no opening books to provide variety, so you either have to generate them or just rely on MP for variety. This is very similar to the "No Black Short Castling" Armageddon chess promoted by myself and S. Pohl a while ago, which is also right on the win/draw line. Whether Black forfeiting short castling or White removing a pawn is more like normal chess is a subjective matter, hard to call.

The Main question to you Mr. Larry Kaufman is, do you believe that Komodo Dragon can beat Carlsen at T/C of 90 Minutes plus 10 seconds Bonus with the f2 pawn Odds? I will first test Stockfish at full strength vs Komodo Dragon with a limit Elo set to 2780 simulating the World Chess Champion Carlsen, to see what happen, can you predict the winner ?


First point, Carlsen's FIDE rating is 2864, why are you using 2780? Second point, if you are trying to simulate Carlsen at 90 minute chess, you need to raise the rating since the rating is for 15' + 10" Rapid, maybe by 150 elo to 3014. But without even looking at simulations, I can tell you what the result of the proposed match with Carlsen would be. He would never (or almost never) win a single game, but would get a decent percentage of draws. The f2 handicap is "winning" for Black, but only by a small margin it only takes one or two small errors by Black to allow White to get within drawing range. The difference in strength between Komodo Dragon and any human, even Carlsen, is so large that it is almost impossible for Black to keep the win in hand. As to whether Carlsen would get more draws than Dragon gets wins, that is hard to say and of course also depends on whether Carlsen or Dragon is rewarded or punished for draws (i.e. Contempt setting for Dragon).

Sorry it was a typo I meant to write 2880, But just realized that in T/C of game in 90 Minutes I had to increase the Limit Playing Strength to Elo = 3000 of Komodo Dragon which I did for this game, and next game I will set it to 3014 as you recommended. Another question that I have for you Mr. Kaufman, if it is between 2 human players what would be the difference in Elo that the stronger player has to be in order for him to give lets say the e2 or d4 pawn to his weakest opponent and consistently beat him 3 games out of 5 with a T/C of game in 15/10. Would you say at least 200 Elo difference ? Do you believe that you can offer another human opponent rated around 2000 the e2 or d4 pawn and still get several draws against him?

I don't think it matters much whether the players are humans or engines. Giving the e2 or d2 odds but with White winning draws (Armageddon scoring) is almost an even proposition, so I would bet on the stronger player (assuming a statistically meaningful elo difference, maybe 25 elo or more) to "win" a match as White with these rules. First move plus draw odds plus open diagonals or files for queen and bishop adds up to roughly enough compensation for the pawn. The draw margin is big in chess, unfortunately.

With all due respect Mr. Kaufman, I honestly do NOT believe that 25 Elo difference is enough to hold another human player with the e2 or d2 Odds, but computer engines surely can hold another engine to many draws. The minimum that a human need is at least 75 Elo to get 47% of draws with the e2 or d2 pawn Odds. More testing needs to be done in chess clubs

Consider that with Evans' Gambit, where White gains just one tempo for the pawn sacrifice, actual results (human or engine) and engine evals are about even. In the case of e2 odds, White is algo geting draw odds, which is huge. Of course the center pawn is more valuable than the "b" pawn, but the difference is not that great, nothing like draw odds. I don't see whyi White's chances "gambiting" the e2 pawn but getting draw odds should be worse than his chances in the Evans' Gambit without the draw odds. There are lots of gambits which aren't "good", but are still good enough to hold half the time even at the highest level if a draw is the goal. .

You are definitively correct, also in order for GM Carlsen to hold a draw against Komodo Dragon or Stockfish with f2 removed GM Carlsen will have to reach 3100 which is what I found out that is the only Playing Limit Strength of Komodo Dragon that can hold Stockfish to a draw. Therefore, Carlsen will never ever reach 3100 Elo in his playing career and the f2 pawn Odds removed is NOT enough for Carlsen to compete with Stockfish or Komodo Dragon even if the time control is set the same way it was back in the first World Chess Championship which time controls were set at 30 moves in two hours and 15 moves an hour thereafter, and Stockfish or Komodo Dragon will only need about 30 Minutes total.

NOTE: This game was played at T/C 15/10 as you notice in the time control = [TimeControl "900+10"]
[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.05.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_22050407_x64_avx2"]
[Black "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "3100"]
[Time "23:31:37"]
[WhiteElo "3680"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP1PP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "adjudication"]
[PlyCount "156"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qd6 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 Bg4 6. Be3 e6 7. Qd2 Nc6
8. a3 Be7 9. O-O-O a6 10. Be2 Nd5 11. Ne4 Qd8 12. h4 O-O 13. Kb1 Rb8 14. h5
f5 15. Nc3 b5 16. Nxd5 Qxd5 17. h6 g6 18. Ka1 b4 19. b3 Na5 20. Bg5 Bd6 21.
Bf4 bxa3 22. Bxd6 cxd6 23. Rb1 Bxf3 24. Bxf3 Qb5 25. Rhe1 Rfe8 26. Ka2 Nc6
27. Bxc6 Qxc6 28. Rxe6 Rxe6 29. d5 Qc5 30. dxe6 Qe5 31. c4 Kf8 32. Re1 Qb2+
33. Qxb2 axb2 34. e7+ Kf7 35. Kxb2 f4 36. Ra1 Rb6 37. Re1 Rb8 38. Kc3 a5
39. Kd4 Ke8 40. Kc3 g5 41. Re6 Kd7 42. Rf6 Kxe7 43. Rf5 Rg8 44. Rxa5 g4 45.
Kd3 Ke6 46. Ke4 Rf8 47. Ra2 f3 48. Rf2 Rf6 49. gxf3 gxf3 50. Rxf3 Rxh6 51.
Kd4 Rh4+ 52. Kc3 h5 53. Kb4 d5 54. Kb5 dxc4 55. bxc4 Rh1 56. c5 Rb1+ 57.
Kc6 h4 58. Kc7 Rg1 59. c6 Rg3 60. Rf8 h3 61. Kb7 Rb3+ 62. Kc8 Rb2 63. Rh8
h2 64. Rh5 Rc2 65. Kb7 Kd6 66. Rh6+ Ke5 67. c7 Rb2+ 68. Kc6 Rc2+ 69. Kb7
Rb2+ 70. Kc6 Rc2+ 71. Kd7 Rd2+ 72. Ke8 Rc2 73. Kd8 Rd2+ 74. Ke7 Rc2 75.
c8=Q Rxc8 76. Rxh2 Rc7+ 77. Ke8 Rc3 78. Kd7 Kf6 {User Adjudication} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

Stockfish played great giving the f7 pawn Odds and letting Komodo Dragon set to Elo 3100 play with White having the first move. I wonder if Komodo Dragon set to Elo 3100 can hold a draw versus Komodo Dragon full strength giving the f2 pawn or f7 pawn.

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.05.19"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[Black "Stockfish_22050407_x64_avx2"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3680"]
[Time "00:42:32"]
[WhiteElo "3100"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "99"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]


1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Qh5+ g6 5. Qe5 Nf6 6. Bh6 Nc6 7. Bb5 Bd6 8.
Qg5 Nxe4 9. Nxe4 dxe4 10. Qg4 Qf6 11. Qxe4 Bd7 12. Nf3 a6 13. Bc4 Rg8 14.
Bg5 Qf5 15. Qe2 h6 16. Bxh6 g5 17. d5 Ne5 18. Nxe5 Qxe5 19. h4 gxh4 20.
Rxh4 Rxg2 21. Qxe5 Bxe5 22. Kf1 Bxb2 23. Kxg2 Bxa1 24. dxe6 Bc6+ 25. Kh3 b5
26. Bb3 Bf6 27. Rh5 Ke7 28. Be3 Rg8 29. Rf5 Rg6 30. f3 Ke8 31. Bd2 Be7 32.
Ba5 Bd6 33. Be1 Rh6+ 34. Kg2 Bb7 35. Rg5 Rh2+ 36. Kf1 Bxf3 37. Bc3 Be2+ 38.
Ke1 Bf3 39. Rg8+ Ke7 40. Rg7+ Ke8 41. Bf6 Rg2 42. Rxg2 Bxg2 43. Kf2 Bh3 44.
Ke3 Be7 45. Be5 c6 46. a4 Bc5+ 47. Bd4 Bd6 48. axb5 axb5 49. Bf6 Bg2 50. c4
b4 51. Ba4 Kf8 52. e7+ Kf7 53. Kd3 Bf1+ 54. Kd4 Bxc4 55. Kxc4 Bxe7 56. Bd4
Ke6 57. Be3 b3 58. Bxb3 c5 59. Bd2 Kf5 60. Kd5 c4 61. Bc2+ Kg4 62. Bd1+ Kf5
63. Be3 Ba3 64. Bc2+ Kf6 65. Bd4+ Kf7 66. Bd1 Ke8 67. Ke6 Kd8 68. Bc3 Kc7
69. Ba4 Kb6 70. Kd5 Be7 71. Bd1 Bd8 72. Be2 Bg5 73. Bg4 Kb7 74. Kc5 Bf4 75.
Bf3+ Kc7 76. Be4 Kd7 77. Kd5 Ke7 78. Bf3 Bc1 79. Ke5 Kd7 80. Bb4 Bh6 81.
Kd5 c3 82. Bg4+ Kd8 83. Bf5 Bg7 84. Bd6 Bf6 85. Ke6 c2 86. Bxc2 Ba1 87. Bf5
Bc3 88. Be4 Ba1 89. Bf4 Bd4 90. Bf5 Bf2 91. Be5 Kc8 92. Be4 Be1 93. Bf4 Bf2
94. Kd6 Kb8 95. Kc6+ Ka7 96. Bd3 Be1 97. Be3+ Kb8 98. Bd4 Bg3 99. Be4 Kc8
100. Bf6 Kb8 101. Bg5 Be1 102. Bf4+ Ka7 103. Bc7 {User Adjudication}
1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

Stockfish played great giving the f7 pawn Odds and letting Komodo Dragon set to Elo 3100 play with White having the first move. I wonder if Komodo Dragon set to Elo 3100 can hold a draw versus Komodo Dragon full strength giving the f2 pawn or f7 pawn.

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.05.19"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[Black "Stockfish_22050407_x64_avx2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "3680"]
[Time "00:42:32"]
[WhiteElo "3100"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "99"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]


1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Qh5+ g6 5. Qe5 Nf6 6. Bh6 Nc6 7. Bb5 Bd6 8.
Qg5 Nxe4 9. Nxe4 dxe4 10. Qg4 Qf6 11. Qxe4 Bd7 12. Nf3 a6 13. Bc4 Rg8 14.
Bg5 Qf5 15. Qe2 h6 16. Bxh6 g5 17. d5 Ne5 18. Nxe5 Qxe5 19. h4 gxh4 20.
Rxh4 Rxg2 21. Qxe5 Bxe5 22. Kf1 Bxb2 23. Kxg2 Bxa1 24. dxe6 Bc6+ 25. Kh3 b5
26. Bb3 Bf6 27. Rh5 Ke7 28. Be3 Rg8 29. Rf5 Rg6 30. f3 Ke8 31. Bd2 Be7 32.
Ba5 Bd6 33. Be1 Rh6+ 34. Kg2 Bb7 35. Rg5 Rh2+ 36. Kf1 Bxf3 37. Bc3 Be2+ 38.
Ke1 Bf3 39. Rg8+ Ke7 40. Rg7+ Ke8 41. Bf6 Rg2 42. Rxg2 Bxg2 43. Kf2 Bh3 44.
Ke3 Be7 45. Be5 c6 46. a4 Bc5+ 47. Bd4 Bd6 48. axb5 axb5 49. Bf6 Bg2 50. c4
b4 51. Ba4 Kf8 52. e7+ Kf7 53. Kd3 Bf1+ 54. Kd4 Bxc4 55. Kxc4 Bxe7 56. Bd4
Ke6 57. Be3 b3 58. Bxb3 c5 59. Bd2 Kf5 60. Kd5 c4 61. Bc2+ Kg4 62. Bd1+ Kf5
63. Be3 Ba3 64. Bc2+ Kf6 65. Bd4+ Kf7 66. Bd1 Ke8 67. Ke6 Kd8 68. Bc3 Kc7
69. Ba4 Kb6 70. Kd5 Be7 71. Bd1 Bd8 72. Be2 Bg5 73. Bg4 Kb7 74. Kc5 Bf4 75.
Bf3+ Kc7 76. Be4 Kd7 77. Kd5 Ke7 78. Bf3 Bc1 79. Ke5 Kd7 80. Bb4 Bh6 81.
Kd5 c3 82. Bg4+ Kd8 83. Bf5 Bg7 84. Bd6 Bf6 85. Ke6 c2 86. Bxc2 Ba1 87. Bf5
Bc3 88. Be4 Ba1 89. Bf4 Bd4 90. Bf5 Bf2 91. Be5 Kc8 92. Be4 Be1 93. Bf4 Bf2
94. Kd6 Kb8 95. Kc6+ Ka7 96. Bd3 Be1 97. Be3+ Kb8 98. Bd4 Bg3 99. Be4 Kc8
100. Bf6 Kb8 101. Bg5 Be1 102. Bf4+ Ka7 103. Bc7 {User Adjudication}
1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

Oh my God is this the longest computer game ever 232 moves, I went to get gasoline for my car and forgot about this game when I came back after 55 minutes it was still going and I simply let it finish it

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2022.05.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_22051520_x64_avx2"]
[Black "Stockfish_22051520_x64_avx2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "3680"]
[Time "13:01:03"]
[WhiteElo "3680"]
[TimeControl "1800+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPP1PPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "463"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Qe2 Be7 4. Nf3 a6 5. a3 d6 6. Bd2 h5 7. g3 b5 8. Bg2
Rb8 9. h3 Nf6 10. O-O Nd7 11. h4 Bf6 12. Rab1 g6 13. Nd1 Bb7 14. c3 Nce5
15. Ng5 Nc4 16. Bc1 Bxg5 17. hxg5 h4 18. gxh4 Rxh4 19. f4 Ke7 20. b3 Ncb6
21. Nf2 Qh8 22. Qe3 f5 23. gxf6+ Nxf6 24. Qg3 g5 25. fxg5 Nxe4 26. Nxe4
Bxe4 27. g6 Rh1+ 28. Bxh1 Qxh1+ 29. Kf2 Qh5 30. Qg5+ Qxg5 31. Bxg5+ Kd7 32.
Rbc1 Bxg6 33. Rg1 Be4 34. Be3 Rf8+ 35. Ke1 Nd5 36. Rg7+ Kc6 37. Rg3 Bf5 38.
c4 bxc4 39. Rxc4+ Kb7 40. Bh6 Re8 41. Rd4 Kc6 42. Rc4+ Kb7 43. Rd4 Kc6 44.
Ra4 Kb6 45. Rh4 e5 46. Bg7 Re7 47. Rh8 Be4 48. Kd2 Kc6 49. Bh6 Rf7 50. Rg4
Bb1 51. Rf8 Rh7 52. Rh4 Be4 53. Ra8 Kb7 54. Rg8 Bb1 55. Kc1 Bd3 56. Kd2 Bb1
57. Kc1 Bd3 58. Kd2 Bf5 59. Kc1 Kc6 60. Rc4+ Kb7 61. Rh4 Kc6 62. Rc4+ Kb6
63. Rh4 Kb7 {3-fold repetition} 64. Rg5 Bc8 65. Rg7 Rh8 66. a4 Be6 67. Kb2
Kc6 68. Rc4+ Kb7 69. Rh4 Kc6 70. Rc4+ Kb6 71. Rh4 Rb8 72. Rg6 Re8 73. Bd2
Re7 74. Bg5 Re8 75. Bd2 Bf5 76. Rg1 Bc8 77. Rgh1 Bf5 78. Rh8 Re7 79. Rf8
Bd3 80. Rh3 Be4 81. Rh4 Bd3 82. Rh3 Be4 83. Rhh8 Rg7 84. Rb8+ Kc6 85. Rbg8
Rf7 86. Rf8 Rg7 87. Rfg8 Rf7 88. Rf8 Rd7 89. Rd8 Re7 90. Bg5 Rf7 91. Rdf8
Rg7 92. Rfg8 Rf7 93. Rf8 Rg7 94. Rhg8 Rd7 95. Rd8 Nb6 96. Bd2 Rxd8 97. Rxd8
Nd7 98. Bb4 Bd5 99. Re8 Kb6 100. Bd2 Nf6 101. Rb8+ Kc6 102. Ba5 Be6 103.
Rh8 Bd7 104. Rh6 Nd5 105. Rh1 Bc8 106. Rh7 Nb6 107. Rh8 Bf5 108. Rh5 Bd3
109. Rh3 Bf5 110. Rg3 Be4 111. Rg7 Nd5 112. Ka3 Bf3 113. Kb2 Bd1 114. Rf7
Bh5 115. Rg7 Bd1 116. Rg5 Kd7 117. Rg7+ Kc8 118. Rg6 Kd7 119. Rg7+ Kc8 120.
Rh7 Be2 121. Rf7 Bd3 122. Rg7 Be2 123. Rf7 Bh5 124. Rg7 Be8 125. Rg8 Kd7
126. Rg7+ Kc6 127. Rg8 Bd7 128. Rg1 Bc8 129. Rg7 Bd7 130. Rg1 Be6 131. Ka3
Kd7 132. Rg7+ Kd8 133. Rh7 Bf5 134. Rf7 Bd3 135. Rg7 Kc8 136. Kb2 e4 137.
Rf7 e3 138. Kc1 Be4 139. Kd1 Kb7 140. Rg7 Bf3+ 141. Kc1 Be4 142. Rg4 Bf3
143. Rg7 Kc6 144. Rg3 Be4 145. Rg4 Bf5 146. Rg7 Be4 147. Rg4 Bf5 148. Rg7
Kb7 149. Rg3 Be6 150. Kb2 Kc6 151. Rg7 Bc8 152. Kc1 Kb7 153. Kd1 Bf5 154.
Kc1 Bd3 155. Kd1 Kc6 156. Rg3 Be4 157. Rg5 Bf3+ 158. Kc2 Be4+ 159. Kd1 Bf3+
160. Kc2 Be2 161. Kc1 Bd3 162. Rg7 Bf1 163. Rg5 Be2 164. Rg7 Bf3 165. Kc2
Be4+ 166. Kc1 Bd3 167. Kd1 Kb7 168. Rg5 Kc6 169. Rg4 Bf5 170. Rg7 Kb7 171.
Rg5 Be4 172. Rg7 Bb1 173. Rg8 Bd3 174. Rg5 Kc6 175. Rg7 Bb1 176. Rg3 Kc5
177. Rg4 Bd3 178. Ke1 Kc6 179. Kd1 Bf5 180. Rg7 Be6 181. Ke2 Bd7 182. Kd1
Be6 183. Kc2 Kb7 184. Kd3 Kc8 185. Kd4 Nb6 186. Bxb6 cxb6 187. Kc3 e2 188.
Rg1 a5 189. Re1 Bg4 190. Rc1 Kb7 191. Kd2 Bf3 192. Rc3 Bh5 193. Rg3 e1=Q+
194. Kxe1 Kc6 195. Rc3+ Kd7 196. Kd2 Bg4 197. Kd3 Be6 198. Kd4 Bf7 199. Rg3
Be6 200. Rg7+ Kc6 201. Kc3 Bd7 202. b4 axb4+ 203. Kxb4 Be6 204. Rg1 Bd7
205. Rc1+ Kb7 206. Ra1 Kc6 207. Rd1 Kc7 208. Re1 Kc8 209. Re7 Kc7 210. Kc4
Kc6 211. Re1 Bg4 212. Kd4 Kd7 213. Ra1 Bh5 214. Ra3 Bg4 215. Kd5 Be6+ 216.
Kd4 Bg4 217. Rg3 Bh5 218. Kd5 Bf7+ 219. Ke4 Bc4 220. Kd4 d5 221. Ra3 Kc6
222. Ra1 Kd6 223. Rb1 Kc6 224. Rg1 Kc7 225. Kc3 Kc6 226. Kd4 Kc7 227. Rc1
Kd6 228. Rxc4 dxc4 229. Kxc4 Kc7 230. Kb5 Kb7 231. a5 bxa5 232. Kxa5
{Insufficient material} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

Oh my God is this the longest computer game ever 232 moves, I went to get gasoline for my car and forgot about this game when I came back after 55 minutes it was still going and I simply let it finish it

Note: I found the longest computer chess game ever 357 moves !

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2022.05.22"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_22051520_x64_avx2"]
[Black "Stockfish_22051520_x64_avx2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "3680"]
[Time "13:01:03"]
[WhiteElo "3680"]
[TimeControl "1800+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPP1PPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "463"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. e4 e6 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. Qe2 Be7 4. Nf3 a6 5. a3 d6 6. Bd2 h5 7. g3 b5 8. Bg2
Rb8 9. h3 Nf6 10. O-O Nd7 11. h4 Bf6 12. Rab1 g6 13. Nd1 Bb7 14. c3 Nce5
15. Ng5 Nc4 16. Bc1 Bxg5 17. hxg5 h4 18. gxh4 Rxh4 19. f4 Ke7 20. b3 Ncb6
21. Nf2 Qh8 22. Qe3 f5 23. gxf6+ Nxf6 24. Qg3 g5 25. fxg5 Nxe4 26. Nxe4
Bxe4 27. g6 Rh1+ 28. Bxh1 Qxh1+ 29. Kf2 Qh5 30. Qg5+ Qxg5 31. Bxg5+ Kd7 32.
Rbc1 Bxg6 33. Rg1 Be4 34. Be3 Rf8+ 35. Ke1 Nd5 36. Rg7+ Kc6 37. Rg3 Bf5 38.
c4 bxc4 39. Rxc4+ Kb7 40. Bh6 Re8 41. Rd4 Kc6 42. Rc4+ Kb7 43. Rd4 Kc6 44.
Ra4 Kb6 45. Rh4 e5 46. Bg7 Re7 47. Rh8 Be4 48. Kd2 Kc6 49. Bh6 Rf7 50. Rg4
Bb1 51. Rf8 Rh7 52. Rh4 Be4 53. Ra8 Kb7 54. Rg8 Bb1 55. Kc1 Bd3 56. Kd2 Bb1
57. Kc1 Bd3 58. Kd2 Bf5 59. Kc1 Kc6 60. Rc4+ Kb7 61. Rh4 Kc6 62. Rc4+ Kb6
63. Rh4 Kb7 {3-fold repetition} 64. Rg5 Bc8 65. Rg7 Rh8 66. a4 Be6 67. Kb2
Kc6 68. Rc4+ Kb7 69. Rh4 Kc6 70. Rc4+ Kb6 71. Rh4 Rb8 72. Rg6 Re8 73. Bd2
Re7 74. Bg5 Re8 75. Bd2 Bf5 76. Rg1 Bc8 77. Rgh1 Bf5 78. Rh8 Re7 79. Rf8
Bd3 80. Rh3 Be4 81. Rh4 Bd3 82. Rh3 Be4 83. Rhh8 Rg7 84. Rb8+ Kc6 85. Rbg8
Rf7 86. Rf8 Rg7 87. Rfg8 Rf7 88. Rf8 Rd7 89. Rd8 Re7 90. Bg5 Rf7 91. Rdf8
Rg7 92. Rfg8 Rf7 93. Rf8 Rg7 94. Rhg8 Rd7 95. Rd8 Nb6 96. Bd2 Rxd8 97. Rxd8
Nd7 98. Bb4 Bd5 99. Re8 Kb6 100. Bd2 Nf6 101. Rb8+ Kc6 102. Ba5 Be6 103.
Rh8 Bd7 104. Rh6 Nd5 105. Rh1 Bc8 106. Rh7 Nb6 107. Rh8 Bf5 108. Rh5 Bd3
109. Rh3 Bf5 110. Rg3 Be4 111. Rg7 Nd5 112. Ka3 Bf3 113. Kb2 Bd1 114. Rf7
Bh5 115. Rg7 Bd1 116. Rg5 Kd7 117. Rg7+ Kc8 118. Rg6 Kd7 119. Rg7+ Kc8 120.
Rh7 Be2 121. Rf7 Bd3 122. Rg7 Be2 123. Rf7 Bh5 124. Rg7 Be8 125. Rg8 Kd7
126. Rg7+ Kc6 127. Rg8 Bd7 128. Rg1 Bc8 129. Rg7 Bd7 130. Rg1 Be6 131. Ka3
Kd7 132. Rg7+ Kd8 133. Rh7 Bf5 134. Rf7 Bd3 135. Rg7 Kc8 136. Kb2 e4 137.
Rf7 e3 138. Kc1 Be4 139. Kd1 Kb7 140. Rg7 Bf3+ 141. Kc1 Be4 142. Rg4 Bf3
143. Rg7 Kc6 144. Rg3 Be4 145. Rg4 Bf5 146. Rg7 Be4 147. Rg4 Bf5 148. Rg7
Kb7 149. Rg3 Be6 150. Kb2 Kc6 151. Rg7 Bc8 152. Kc1 Kb7 153. Kd1 Bf5 154.
Kc1 Bd3 155. Kd1 Kc6 156. Rg3 Be4 157. Rg5 Bf3+ 158. Kc2 Be4+ 159. Kd1 Bf3+
160. Kc2 Be2 161. Kc1 Bd3 162. Rg7 Bf1 163. Rg5 Be2 164. Rg7 Bf3 165. Kc2
Be4+ 166. Kc1 Bd3 167. Kd1 Kb7 168. Rg5 Kc6 169. Rg4 Bf5 170. Rg7 Kb7 171.
Rg5 Be4 172. Rg7 Bb1 173. Rg8 Bd3 174. Rg5 Kc6 175. Rg7 Bb1 176. Rg3 Kc5
177. Rg4 Bd3 178. Ke1 Kc6 179. Kd1 Bf5 180. Rg7 Be6 181. Ke2 Bd7 182. Kd1
Be6 183. Kc2 Kb7 184. Kd3 Kc8 185. Kd4 Nb6 186. Bxb6 cxb6 187. Kc3 e2 188.
Rg1 a5 189. Re1 Bg4 190. Rc1 Kb7 191. Kd2 Bf3 192. Rc3 Bh5 193. Rg3 e1=Q+
194. Kxe1 Kc6 195. Rc3+ Kd7 196. Kd2 Bg4 197. Kd3 Be6 198. Kd4 Bf7 199. Rg3
Be6 200. Rg7+ Kc6 201. Kc3 Bd7 202. b4 axb4+ 203. Kxb4 Be6 204. Rg1 Bd7
205. Rc1+ Kb7 206. Ra1 Kc6 207. Rd1 Kc7 208. Re1 Kc8 209. Re7 Kc7 210. Kc4
Kc6 211. Re1 Bg4 212. Kd4 Kd7 213. Ra1 Bh5 214. Ra3 Bg4 215. Kd5 Be6+ 216.
Kd4 Bg4 217. Rg3 Bh5 218. Kd5 Bf7+ 219. Ke4 Bc4 220. Kd4 d5 221. Ra3 Kc6
222. Ra1 Kd6 223. Rb1 Kc6 224. Rg1 Kc7 225. Kc3 Kc6 226. Kd4 Kc7 227. Rc1
Kd6 228. Rxc4 dxc4 229. Kxc4 Kc7 230. Kb5 Kb7 231. a5 bxa5 232. Kxa5
{Insufficient material} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[lkaufman]

I decided to do a serious test of this question (with White's goal being to draw, i.e. Armageddon scoring). I ran very long matches of Stockfish 15 against itself at 2' + 1" on four threads, no book, just relying on MP search variety, which seemed to be adequate. The bottom line is that removing e2 is still heavily in Black's favor with Armageddon scoring (one White win, 228 Black wins, 151 draws, so 228 to 152 for Black with Armageddon scoring). However removing d2 proved to be almost perfectly balanced (no White wins, 242 Black wins, 236 draws, so 242 to 236 with Armageddon scoring, not statistically different from a tied result). I think this makes some sense, since removing the d2 pawn gives White a great half-open file for the queen, whereas removing e2 doesn't help so much because White will almost always develop his king's knight early which block's the queen's diagonal. Removing d2 just gives much more compensation in the opening. So based on this, it would seem that an almost perfectly fair way to play chess with no draws is to start with d2 removed with White winning draws!