Rybka 1.0 vs. Strelka

[Zach Wegner]

Bob was talking earlier about detection of students who produced modified variants of code for assignments. Even if massively modified, Bob was actually after algorithmic theft with rewritten or semi-rewritten code. If detected they failed or whatever. Not unreasonable, students are expected to come up with their own ideas.

However, you're talking about possible violations on a legal or contractual level. Of using source code protected under GPL.

I thought we established in an earlier argument that if all the source was re-written - ie. the rewriter read and understood the earlier source, then rewrote the code, that that was ok under GPL, albeit not ok at Uni Alabama.

I don't think you understand. I'm saying that they are semantically identical as a baseline. Being a direct copy of something requires being semantically identical. So we're showing that the first half of the equation is there.

While you are right that if someone were to rewrite the code, I don't think it would fall under the GPL. It would still be frowned upon by the CC community, as evidenced by Sloppy, which though it was 100% legal and with good intentions, there were huge threads railing against it because it had a rewrite of Fruit's eval.

It is highly unlikely that someone who simply looked at the Fruit code and borrowed some ideas came up with something so close IMO. If Vas wants to come out and say that he wrote so much of Rybka 1 while staring at the source of Fruit, he is free to do so. Until then, I will hold my opinion that there is way too much similarity to be a coincidence.

[Terry McCracken]

There is no way that these discussions won't be offensive in some way, because in the clone thread, the underlying premise is that someone has copied something that should not be copied. But perhaps a legal opinion might be informative here. A lawyer friend of mine had called me about something and I chatted a few minutes about the ongoing discussions. And he pointed out that _somewhere_ such accusations have to be made. I asked "OK, if they come out in a courtroom, what happens, particularly if they are proven false?" He said "that is privileged discussion and you can't be sued for something you say under oath in court. You can be prosecuted if it is proven that you perjured yourself, but that is all." And in thinking about that, that should be the way this is conducted. If accusations can not be made, they can not be discussed, proven or disproven, and the situation does not get improved as a result.

And Bob, just this to my many others: there is no such thing called friendship and respect in this scene, no? And Vas has gone commercial and that is what happens but what you can not estimate. True? And did you also ask your law expert what happens in court if a campaign like man hunt could be proven? Is that also allowed in the Law in the USA? In such a public forum? Where only writing affords registration??? Are there no internet laws in the States? And man hunt in the style of virtual witch hunt is tolerated? Not to speak of business damages... Why not seeking a sort of peace? But ok with your team that couldnt be the goal. ..

What you wrote above in boald letters from my side, means that Zach and others are actively commiting witch-hunt nothing else. Because this has absolutely no relevance when he said but I will continue to ask as long as I get answers. Only he wont get some. So this is a fine forum for Zach. For how long this will bew supported? Forever? <lol>

Rolf knock it off! There isn't a witch hunt going on here or some sort of campaign against Vasik!

There never was and there never will be! You apparently don't understand the discussion and are mudding the waters with your false accusations, distortions and lack of knowledge!

I and many/most/all others don't want to hurt Vasik or even hurt his product, we just want to know how Rybka Evolved and it's obvious where it's origins began, in fact I'm suprised that you and many others hadn't a clue!

All the data is there for everyone to read, if they can't understand it then it isn't Christophe's, Zack's, Bob's, mine or anyone else's fault!

Personally, regardless how Rybka Evolved, I still think it's a great program and it's Evolution should continue.

Now Please Cool your Jets.

[Richard Allbert]

Totally agree.

[gerold]

I think that the discussions to this point would pose no problem for me as a moderator, I would leave them untouched. Perhaps here and there someone might get a bit insulting, although I don't recall such. But "the quest for truth" ought to outweigh "the fear of false accusations". Yes, blatant false claims need to be dealt with. But there is quite a bit of evidence here that should be discussed since more is being presented each day.

I was not particularly interested, and still am not, other than to correct some false information about detecting copied code. Faculty members deal with this on a regular basis and the issues are not exactly new.

Either new information will continue to come from the discussion, or it will die of its own accord...

I agree with you Bob.
and of course Rolf has the right to say his ideas and thoughts.

Best to you,

Gerold.

[Rolf]

There is no way that these discussions won't be offensive in some way, because in the clone thread, the underlying premise is that someone has copied something that should not be copied. But perhaps a legal opinion might be informative here. A lawyer friend of mine had called me about something and I chatted a few minutes about the ongoing discussions. And he pointed out that _somewhere_ such accusations have to be made. I asked "OK, if they come out in a courtroom, what happens, particularly if they are proven false?" He said "that is privileged discussion and you can't be sued for something you say under oath in court. You can be prosecuted if it is proven that you perjured yourself, but that is all." And in thinking about that, that should be the way this is conducted. If accusations can not be made, they can not be discussed, proven or disproven, and the situation does not get improved as a result.

And Bob, just this to my many others: there is no such thing called friendship and respect in this scene, no? And Vas has gone commercial and that is what happens but what you can not estimate. True? And did you also ask your law expert what happens in court if a campaign like man hunt could be proven? Is that also allowed in the Law in the USA? In such a public forum? Where only writing affords registration??? Are there no internet laws in the States? And man hunt in the style of virtual witch hunt is tolerated? Not to speak of business damages... Why not seeking a sort of peace? But ok with your team that couldnt be the goal. ..

What you wrote above in boald letters from my side, means that Zach and others are actively commiting witch-hunt nothing else. Because this has absolutely no relevance when he said but I will continue to ask as long as I get answers. Only he wont get some. So this is a fine forum for Zach. For how long this will bew supported? Forever? <lol>

Rolf knock it off! There isn't a witch hunt going on here or some sort of campaign against Vasik!

There never was and there never will be! You apparently don't understand the discussion and are mudding the waters with your false accusations, distortions and lack of knowledge!

I and many/most/all others don't want to hurt Vasik or even hurt his product, we just want to know how Rybka Evolved and it's obvious where it's origins began, in fact I'm suprised that you and many others hadn't a clue!

All the data is there for everyone to read, if they can't understand it then it isn't Christophe's, Zack's, Bob's, mine or anyone else's fault!

Personally, regardless how Rybka Evolved, I still think it's a great program and it's Evolution should continue.

Now Please Cool your Jets.

One of the best messages you ever made. Unfortunately I would see the hunt continue although someone like you sees the end of it. Here you are in agreement with Bob who also sees it this way. But we cant control our little hunters and they will certainly reveil as much code as possible inspite of writing own stuff. Of course they can forget about any support in the community after such lack of respect and campaign. I take your message as a good motif to have confidence that now the evil stops and people can live without getting mud wrestling messages from CCC.

Bob was so friendly and answered some of my lay questions and that made my day. There will be no courttrial. Vas will flourish and improve. He's not a criminal. What I dont get why the mods have tolerated the hunt. Because it is a hunt when nothing positive came out either for Vas nor the little hunters or their "captn".

As a psychologist I miss the realistic motivation of this all. It's a hunt but without real goals. It's nourished from a wild somewhat aggressive gut leaden mentality that has no eyes for aspects in life like love, peace and respect.

I am convinced that Vas is a terrific programmer otherwise he wouldnt stand where he is right now. To even think of that he came only there by cheating and stealing is incredibly stupid. He took something he understood better than the many others who also could read the Fruit code.

For admiring Bob it doesnt take much, because of the monumental height but I had prefered we would discuss here in CCC that we have an extraordinary talent in Vas and how others could cope with that. This would be a sane approach but what was done here is making your brains empty and it poisons your hearts. But I can foresee that someone like Vas, a genius, doesnt even know how others could enjoy smelling their gall. And what has gall in common with your brain, folks? I would so much like to send you some bits of my peace when this gallic campaign will have stopped. Somehow I must admit that you wont trust me. So?

[bob]

There is no way that these discussions won't be offensive in some way, because in the clone thread, the underlying premise is that someone has copied something that should not be copied. But perhaps a legal opinion might be informative here. A lawyer friend of mine had called me about something and I chatted a few minutes about the ongoing discussions. And he pointed out that _somewhere_ such accusations have to be made. I asked "OK, if they come out in a courtroom, what happens, particularly if they are proven false?" He said "that is privileged discussion and you can't be sued for something you say under oath in court. You can be prosecuted if it is proven that you perjured yourself, but that is all." And in thinking about that, that should be the way this is conducted. If accusations can not be made, they can not be discussed, proven or disproven, and the situation does not get improved as a result.

And Bob, just this to my many others: there is no such thing called friendship and respect in this scene, no? And Vas has gone commercial and that is what happens but what you can not estimate. True? And did you also ask your law expert what happens in court if a campaign like man hunt could be proven? Is that also allowed in the Law in the USA? In such a public forum? Where only writing affords registration??? Are there no internet laws in the States? And man hunt in the style of virtual witch hunt is tolerated? Not to speak of business damages... Why not seeking a sort of peace? But ok with your team that couldnt be the goal. ..

What you wrote above in boald letters from my side, means that Zach and others are actively commiting witch-hunt nothing else. Because this has absolutely no relevance when he said but I will continue to ask as long as I get answers. Only he wont get some. So this is a fine forum for Zach. For how long this will bew supported? Forever? <lol>

I do not follow your line of reasoning. What you converted to bold face font is a simple statement that has nothing to do with anybody in particular...

[Rolf]

There is no way that these discussions won't be offensive in some way, because in the clone thread, the underlying premise is that someone has copied something that should not be copied. But perhaps a legal opinion might be informative here. A lawyer friend of mine had called me about something and I chatted a few minutes about the ongoing discussions. And he pointed out that _somewhere_ such accusations have to be made. I asked "OK, if they come out in a courtroom, what happens, particularly if they are proven false?" He said "that is privileged discussion and you can't be sued for something you say under oath in court. You can be prosecuted if it is proven that you perjured yourself, but that is all." And in thinking about that, that should be the way this is conducted. If accusations can not be made, they can not be discussed, proven or disproven, and the situation does not get improved as a result.

And Bob, just this to my many others: there is no such thing called friendship and respect in this scene, no? And Vas has gone commercial and that is what happens but what you can not estimate. True? And did you also ask your law expert what happens in court if a campaign like man hunt could be proven? Is that also allowed in the Law in the USA? In such a public forum? Where only writing affords registration??? Are there no internet laws in the States? And man hunt in the style of virtual witch hunt is tolerated? Not to speak of business damages... Why not seeking a sort of peace? But ok with your team that couldnt be the goal. ..

What you wrote above in boald letters from my side, means that Zach and others are actively commiting witch-hunt nothing else. Because this has absolutely no relevance when he said but I will continue to ask as long as I get answers. Only he wont get some. So this is a fine forum for Zach. For how long this will bew supported? Forever? <lol>

I do not follow your line of reasoning. What you converted to bold face font is a simple statement that has nothing to do with anybody in particular...

I had understood that you wouldnt see this in a court. That has two consequences. Only in court one could make real accusations but here out of court you can go on forever without reasonable effects. I didnt think it was addressed to someone but it was sort of credo from you after the long and extended debate. Could we agree on that somehow?

[bob]

I repeat my standpoint. Since you dont ask the other commercial programmers where they took their stuff from, you have no right to ask Vas. Or it looks biased. And above all if Vas doesnt answer you cant continue a campaign like repetition of always the same stuff. All IMO.

There is nothing biased about it - the investigations start indepedently based on suspiscion. If a person makes a claim in this forum, for example, there are enough people with programming experience to quickly shoot down any unfair claims. That hasn't happened in this thread as all the pro-Rybka participants are able to do is complain that the investigation is invalid and based on personal jealously. None of the pro-Rybka folk have successfully countered any of the technical details presented. It's almost political in nature in fact.

Cheers,
Andy

Andy, you cant seriously mean it. Apart from me and partially Uri there is nobody here in defense of Rybka. Didnt you see this? If you would change into Rybka forum you would see many people who think different. But why should they argue in this climate. The reason for me to make some arguments is NOT that I know for sure what is going on but when the anti-Vas side is making shallow messages. Of course I cant judge on the quoted code at all. But I have experience how people are doing a witch-hunt. This is actually what is happening here. Of course the triumph will be China. Otherwise these people here cant hurt Vas and Rybka.

Since you are a new name for me, just for me, and I still take you on a high level and ethical grounds would you please comment on what Corbit has reported here, namely that as he showed the analyses to Fabien, he reacted so, that he didnt care. And although some have explained that this meant that others couldt neither do something. But we still have the campaign here. Could you explain to a lay what tghis is all about? Some wrote "envie" but why?

And then we have a strange situation that the main attackers have themselves a special standing. I wait on a short exchange wih Bob and then I will decide how to handle that topic.

If you could help with some thoughtful reflections then it would be positive for the community. You know I can only oppose as a democrat and humanistic guy all kind of doctored annihilation of other peple and the products of their talents.

My fantasy often tells me that Vas will retaliate at his chosen moment and then people should not be surprised if they are taken to task. In case they are Europeans like CT. I fully agree with what Graham has written.

I do not believe any sort of legal action will happen. It will be too costly. If Vas tries to sue someone, the initial cost is non-trivial. If he loses, he will end up paying a ton of attorney fees for both sides. He will have to offer proof that the source code being shown here is not in his program, which means he will have to reveal the source in a public record. If there is any substance to the speculation being made, it will go downhill from there.

There are some doors you just don't want to open... even if the current claims being made are completely wrong, legal action is a dangerous path to start down...

[tiger]

Uri,

who are you defending ? Vasik or yourself ?

Tony

Apparently Vas isn't under attack here, so why would he need defending?

Vas isnt under attack, only the origin of his program is.

That's the excuse constantly being used - yes.
His integrity and honesty are under attack through the insinuations being made.

Graham,

How do you propose moderation deals with this different to the way it is doing?

You were noderator last time, please inform us which posts you would have deleted out of this thread .......

Boy - that's the million dollar question!
The problem with CCC is that there's this thing called the charter which unfortunately severely inhibits this sort of discussion.

I would have thought that questioning the legality of an engine falls under the guise of a legally questionable post.

Also, by questioning the legality of an engine in such a manner, one is attacking the honesty and integrity of the engine author, so you're on the fringe with regards to the charter that prohibits personal or libellous attacks.

Unfortunately, if you enforce the charter, such discussions would therefore not be allowed. I'm not saying whether that's a good or bad thing, but that's the fact of the matter.

Hope that explains the predicament that faces the moderators in such situations.

The reason I didn't stand again was so that I no longer had to make such decisions, so I have to leave that to the current team.
Be warned though that you'll cop abuse no matter what you do, although I know that you're already aware of this.

Cheers, Graham.

PS - I think that your post on clones at the top of the page makes the position of the moderators clear.

Questionning the legality of an engine has been done several times in the recent past of CCC. How many times has it happened? 10 times? More?

I have never seen anybody standing up and saying it was against the charter.

Thanks to the discussions, a number of clones or illegal derived works have been discovered.

CCC is the place for these discussions to happen. The moderators' job is to let them happen, but under reasonable control.

// Christophe

Tres drole Christophe

What is exactly "under reasonable control"?

I was under the impression mods were trying to "reasonably control" the discussion, but I am rapidly coming to the conclusion this is not actually a moderatable discussion.

One man's "reasonable control" is another's "fascist dicatorship" and yet another's "anarchic disorder". When the petty gripes of those who feel their toes have been stepped on overspill into my private domain with threats pouring into my private email address (54 threatening and demanding and complaining emails from one person for example), I would say that moderation of the forums itself is under attack.

My opinion is that so far the discussion has remained under reasonable control except for one troll in high activity.

I'm sorry to learn that the moderators are under attack on their private emails.

It's very revealing if instead of contradicting the fact presented here some feel the need to threaten the moderators.



// Christophe

[Rolf]

I repeat my standpoint. Since you dont ask the other commercial programmers where they took their stuff from, you have no right to ask Vas. Or it looks biased. And above all if Vas doesnt answer you cant continue a campaign like repetition of always the same stuff. All IMO.

There is nothing biased about it - the investigations start indepedently based on suspiscion. If a person makes a claim in this forum, for example, there are enough people with programming experience to quickly shoot down any unfair claims. That hasn't happened in this thread as all the pro-Rybka participants are able to do is complain that the investigation is invalid and based on personal jealously. None of the pro-Rybka folk have successfully countered any of the technical details presented. It's almost political in nature in fact.

Cheers,
Andy

Andy, you cant seriously mean it. Apart from me and partially Uri there is nobody here in defense of Rybka. Didnt you see this? If you would change into Rybka forum you would see many people who think different. But why should they argue in this climate. The reason for me to make some arguments is NOT that I know for sure what is going on but when the anti-Vas side is making shallow messages. Of course I cant judge on the quoted code at all. But I have experience how people are doing a witch-hunt. This is actually what is happening here. Of course the triumph will be China. Otherwise these people here cant hurt Vas and Rybka.

Since you are a new name for me, just for me, and I still take you on a high level and ethical grounds would you please comment on what Corbit has reported here, namely that as he showed the analyses to Fabien, he reacted so, that he didnt care. And although some have explained that this meant that others couldt neither do something. But we still have the campaign here. Could you explain to a lay what tghis is all about? Some wrote "envie" but why?

And then we have a strange situation that the main attackers have themselves a special standing. I wait on a short exchange wih Bob and then I will decide how to handle that topic.

If you could help with some thoughtful reflections then it would be positive for the community. You know I can only oppose as a democrat and humanistic guy all kind of doctored annihilation of other peple and the products of their talents.

My fantasy often tells me that Vas will retaliate at his chosen moment and then people should not be surprised if they are taken to task. In case they are Europeans like CT. I fully agree with what Graham has written.

I do not believe any sort of legal action will happen. It will be too costly. If Vas tries to sue someone, the initial cost is non-trivial. If he loses, he will end up paying a ton of attorney fees for both sides. He will have to offer proof that the source code being shown here is not in his program, which means he will have to reveal the source in a public record. If there is any substance to the speculation being made, it will go downhill from there.

There are some doors you just don't want to open... even if the current claims being made are completely wrong, legal action is a dangerous path to start down...

Ok, so all from the USA are fine. But I for one had alsways worried for people like CT who must live under the miserable Europe and France conditions. That could cost a whole lot because we dont know the complicated jury system in the USA. Here CT might be responsible for the whole thing and that with his data...

But I must confess something else Bob. Honestly I couldnt imagine that people existed who stand up against such a talent like Vasik without that they had a chance to sue Vasik in return, that was what I feared most. But if this doesnt even play a role for you then I'm left helpless why people showed so much negative from their characters. People who either left the scene in frustration, have apologized for _____ and who are themselves so talented like Zach but dont write own code for the competition. This is incredible to get for me, Bob. When people will learn from your role model? Could you ever have done all this internet communication with a negative attutude. With gallic hate speech? Not imaginable. - peace for all!