World Chess Computer Champion?

[hgm]

I am not asking to reconsider a past decision but to analyze the present and consider if those rules still make sense.

There are no rules that prevent Stockfish or Komodo to enter. So it seems you are trying to solve a non-existent problem. Which wouldn't achieve much in the presence of a real problem.

How would you want to change the rules to accomodate Houdini, whose reason for not participating is that he doesn't have >90% probability to win, and that the opponents are allowed to use their own opening books?

[hgm]

You don't have to know about how TCEC is conducted to know that to be a false claim.

Please do enlighten me on how TCEC is conducted Mr. Muller.

A weird question to ask, to somewhone who wrote in the same post as you quote: "Well, I don't know anything about TCEC, as it is completely without interest to me".

Especially weird since you are supposed to be the one to conduct it, so one would assume you already know. I suppose you are neither blind nor stupid, so what game are you trying to play here?

[sicilianquake87]

I am not asking to reconsider a past decision but to analyze the present and consider if those rules still make sense.

There are no rules that prevent Stockfish or Komodo to enter. So it seems you are trying to solve a non-existent problem. Which wouldn't achieve much in the presence of a real problem.

How would you want to change the rules to accomodate Houdini, whose reason for not participating is that he doesn't have >90% probability to win, and that the opponents are allowed to use their own opening books?

First, I am not parting for Houdini at all since there are a few points unclear to me about it.
Second, there is a real problem (as even Ballicora and others pointed out) if top engines fly away from ICGA and nobody follows its events. I have not been able to make you understand it. You kept asking and I kept answering for how many posts now? I simply give up.

[Martin Thoresen]

Especially weird since you are supposed to be the one to conduct it, so one would assume you already know. I suppose you are neither blind nor stupid, so what game are you trying to play here?

You completely missed my point. You seem to talk a lot about TCEC even if you claim you know nothing about it.

[hgm]

I merely commented on Adam's statement that Komodo was not 'allowed to participate' but chosen. If that is not a good representation of the facts, then you should correct him, not play word games with me...

But now that you are here, perhaps you can enlighten me/us whether any of the things I said before (which I carefully qualified by phrases such as "if I understand you correctly", "apparently" etc.) were in fact misrepresentations of the truth:

1) Are the participants to TCEC selected
a) by you without first (successfully) contacting the author,
b) are the authors actively contacted and given the opportunity to refuse (but participate by default),
c) are they not informed at all, but can withdraw when they request so on their own initiative, or
c) must authors actively contact you to register?

2) Could Fairy-Max participate in TCEC if I wanted it to?

3) Do you in fact refuse engines for TCEC because that do not satisfy some originality / legality requirement?

4) Can participants use their own book in TCEC?
a) from the very first move on
b) after they get out of the tournament book
c) never

[velmarin]

I merely commented on Adam's statement that Komodo was not 'allowed to participate' but chosen. If that is not a good representation of the facts, then you should correct him, not play word games with me...

But now that you are here, perhaps you can enlighten me/us whether any of the things I said before (which I carefully qualified by phrases such as "if I understand you correctly", "apparently" etc.) were in fact misrepresentations of the truth:

1) Are the participants to TCEC selected
a) by you without first (successfully) contacting the author,
b) are the authors actively contacted and given the opportunity to refuse (but participate by default),
c) are they not informed at all, but can withdraw when they request so on their own initiative, or
c) must authors actively contact you to register?

2) Could Fairy-Max participate in TCEC if I wanted it to?

3) Do you in fact refuse engines for TCEC because that do not satisfy some originality / legality requirement?

4) Can participants use their own book in TCEC?
a) from the very first move on
b) after they get out of the tournament book
c) never

+1
Yes, good points.

Well for a private tournament.
Bad for an open world championship.

[Martin Thoresen]

1) Are the participants to TCEC selected
a) by you without first (successfully) contacting the author,
b) are the authors actively contacted and given the opportunity to refuse (but participate by default),
c) are they not informed at all, but can withdraw when they request so on their own initiative, or
c) must authors actively contact you to register?

b. I assemble the list each Season. All authors are contacted to inform them about the start date, the format and to answer any questions they might have and so forth and so on.

2) Could Fairy-Max participate in TCEC if I wanted it to?

If it supports 8 threads or more, it can participate.

3) Do you in fact refuse engines for TCEC because that do not satisfy some originality / legality requirement?

I limit each Season to only one clear ippolit clone. Other than that, I stay up to date on which engines that are regarded as direct clones.

4) Can participants use their own book in TCEC?
a) from the very first move on
b) after they get out of the tournament book
c) never

c. TCEC is not a book contest.

[hgm]

OK, thanks very much for the clarification. But I don't see that I have done TCEC any injustice in what I wrote about it earlier. Everything I "assumed" seems to be 100% correct.

My intension is to discuss what I want / not want in a World Championship, and if I point out that TCEC does not have that you should not take that as criticism on TCEC, as it never claimed to be a World Championship.

I have strong doubts in whether 1b would be an acceptable method for recruiting participants to a World Championship. (And IMO it is the major factor that explains the participation in TCEC vs WCCC. Much more so than the requirement to be on-site. I am pretty sure plenty of people could be found locally that would be prepared to operate a program, when the authors consider it too expensive to attend. Heck, I would be prepared to operate Stockfish at WCCC, as I will be attending the Olympiad anyway.) I wonder how others feel about this. Would it be acceptable if ICGA just downloaded the latest Stockfish, appointed an operator, and let it play in WCCC?

A condition where you should support a minimum number of threads seems totally unacceptable for a World Championship.

Forbidding use of books seems to disqualify an event completely as World Championship Computer Chess. Opening books are an integral part of Chess. It could still be a World Championship, but only for a particular aspect of Chess. Like the World Championship penalty shooting is not the same as the World Championship Soccer.

That leaves the derivative question. Not allowing multiple copies of the same code seems good, (better than not allowing the code at all), but just picking one at the discretion of the organizer seems unacceptable for a World Championship. But letting them play a qualifier could solve that.

[Sedat Canbaz]

Just my two cents over this issue,

Very interesting thread indeed...thanks to Mark Young for opening this thread!

And now about the current issue,
I see a lot of postings regarding World Computer Chess Champion

So far...I could not read all messages, but however I think:
Komodo team make a BIG mistake with claiming Komodo is a World Champion 2013
I dont know yet (maybe they already apologized) but I think Komodo team should apologize to Chess Community

My regards to Houdini and Stockfish teams,
their engines won many serious competitions, but they never claimed that their engines are World Champions

Note also that WCCC organization made a BIG mistake regarding Rybka issue, very sad news indeed ...
We lost Vasik Rajlich (a very talented chess programmer)

BTW,
In my opinion, a 'real' World Computer Chess Championship should be:
-Organized by chess engine teams via online server
-Live broadcasting tools (installed on same PC) should not be allowed,
because we can't be sure how much the chess engines are affecting by those live tools on same PC
-Based on strongest available 'original' MP engines (Stockfish,Rybka,Houdini should be definitely as participants)
-Tournament type should be Swiss system (9 rounds)
-The participants should be run with Slow time control and definitely with Ponder ON
-The participants should be played definitely with their 'Own' opening books
...

Hopes this helps...


Best Wishes,
Sedat

[Martin Thoresen]

OK, thanks very much for the clarification. But I don't see that I have done TCEC any injustice in what I wrote about it earlier. Everything I "assumed" seems to be 100% correct.

No problem. And I see no injustice done here.

My intention is to discuss what I want / not want in a World Championship, and if I point out that TCEC does not have that you should not take that as criticism on TCEC, as it never claimed to be a World Championship.

I don't take it as criticism. Just making sure that you are basing your idea of TCEC on facts and not false information. And you are right, I have not added a "World Championship" text to the title of TCEC nor have I ever claimed it to be the "real" Word Championship.

A condition where you should support a minimum number of threads seems totally unacceptable for a World Championship.

I can see your point here. The difference, however, is that in your WC each operator has his own machine. In TCEC they do not. And personally, I think this idea of "single core" (and the fact that certain commercial programs still charge more for SMP) in the year 2014 is, well, just so 2002. Sometimes I feel that the computer chess community and it's body is stuck in the past, glory days of old - which is something I want to change with TCEC.

Forbidding use of books seems to disqualify an event completely as World Championship Computer Chess. Opening books are an integral part of Chess. It could still be a World Championship, but only for a particular aspect of Chess. Like the World Championship penalty shooting is not the same as the World Championship Soccer.

I am not interested in a book championship where engines go 20-30+ moves in book and end up in an endgame. So in TCEC the openings are created by other people. That is why all openings in this Season are created by Nelson Hernandez (Rybka forum) and Adam Hair. I have full confidence in their expertise in this area. With that said, I understand why it might disqualify an event in your eyes.