An extremely interesting topic....

[Gian-Carlo Pascutto]

I agree that professional should mean what you say above but then, doesn't that now open the door to proving whether or not there are any professional programmers around? Is there anyone that earns their living from computer chess programming? Is that classification valid?

I think this is currently only Frans Morsch, Matthias Feist, Stefan Meyer Kahlen, Vasik Rajlich and Marc Uniacke. (Of the people who write programs. For example Convekta and ChessBase have more people not directly involved with the engines)

The organizers could asks for excerpts from the accounting, for example.

Maybe the focus should shift to the program itself. Programs for sale and those not for sale.

This is what the ICGA is doing and what some people here are outraged about. They figure that if the promotion by being able to use the commercial name is important for you, you can afford the higher fee, and if you can't afford it, you should forgo the publicity and have to use another name.

For me, the promotion is unimportant compared to participating, so I don't mind using another name. For the same reason, I'm quite sure Shredder and Rybka will pay the full fee and enter under their own name.

[tomgdrums]

Re "professional chess programmer", I think the term is just wrong in most cases. If I sell something that I have produced myself then this might be called my "business" but it is not necessarily my profession. Whether it is or not does mostly depend on what my *main* work or business is, and maybe also on the amount of financial profit drawn from that business.

Sven, I'm glad to read this because your interpretation is exactly how I also understand it.

The reactions here suggest to me the word means something completely different in the US. Most people from the US seem convinced it is "very obvious" that I'm a professional, whereas if I would say that I'm a "professional chess programmer" at work then the response would be "what are you doing here then?".

You are a professional only if you can make your living out of it. Somebody who takes wedding pictures during the weekends and asks money for it is not considered a professional photographer here. It seems that in the US he or she would be, though. Similarly, a signer who is selling his own CDs is not a professional artist. He would need a record deal for that.

With all due respect, you couldn't be more wrong with regards to singers/musicians. In fact these days more and more professionals are selling there own music without the need of a record company.

In fact two very influential artists, Ani Difranco, and Maria Schnieder have helped to really change that paradigm.

So I do not think you can hang your hat on that rationalization.

I do agree that there should probably be one base fee for the competition BUT as it stands there is not.

[Zach Wegner]

I think you miss the point. As GCP said, "You are a professional only if you can make your living out of it." I would happen to agree with that. Maybe his statement that you need to be signed to a record label to be professional was a bit inaccurate, but it doesn't negate the meaning of the rest of the post.

Would you say someone who sells CD-Rs of their music recorded at home, while still having a day job, is a professional musician?

[tomgdrums]

I think you miss the point. As GCP said, "You are a professional only if you can make your living out of it." I would happen to agree with that. Maybe his statement that you need to be signed to a record label to be professional was a bit inaccurate, but it doesn't negate the meaning of the rest of the post.

Would you say someone who sells CD-Rs of their music recorded at home, while still having a day job, is a professional musician?

Hi Zach,

First I am excited about the renamed and retooled Zappa!

Second, I did not miss the point of his post. He used the musician (and photography) comparison to make his point, and the comparison was wrong, so therefore his point suffers.

GCP has been "selling" versions of Sjeng for years, with Lokasoft and now on his own. He also sells Go Software (and as I stated before his Go program is great, and I am happy I purchased it).

So this is not GCP's first rodeo. He has been selling engines for years. His track record is that of a professional.

Somehow comparing Deep Sjeng to hastily put together CD-R's is off point and rather insulting to the quality of engine that is Deep Sjeng.