What happens using egbb

[Ferdy]

Deuterium uses scorpio egbb and it works fine.
I make a test on houdini 3 with egbb vs deuterium with egbb, and houdini has a problem indeed in winning a won position.

Yes, it seems a Houdini problem. Is the ELO benefit from egbb measurable in Deuterium?

I have not tested this extensively but from my last test with an older version, the egbb can gain a net of +2 wins after 500 games, these are from positions in late mid-game but with more than 5 pieces.

[Laskos]

Deuterium uses scorpio egbb and it works fine.
I make a test on houdini 3 with egbb vs deuterium with egbb, and houdini has a problem indeed in winning a won position.

Yes, it seems a Houdini problem. Is the ELO benefit from egbb measurable in Deuterium?

Kai, that is a question for another day Simply asking questions, specially rhetorical ones, is just a waste of everybody's time. We have enough flames generated for the day by a screwed up test which should have used scorpio. This I say because of the emphatic conclusions you made right away regarding egbbs, and the following misinformed FUD about droping egbbs etc...

Daniel, the question was not rhetorical, I just didn't manage to load egbb into Deuterium to test with cutechess, and was curious. I don't care about the wars I was unaware of with egbb vs. the world.

[Laskos]

Deuterium uses scorpio egbb and it works fine.
I make a test on houdini 3 with egbb vs deuterium with egbb, and houdini has a problem indeed in winning a won position.

Yes, it seems a Houdini problem. Is the ELO benefit from egbb measurable in Deuterium?

I have not tested this extensively but from my last test with an older version, the egbb can gain a net of +2 wins after 500 games, these are from positions in late mid-game but with more than 5 pieces.

Thanks.

[Daniel Shawul]

Kai, the least you could do after your experiment's fault is pointed out is NOT end it with a rhetorical question, which sure is even if you deny it. Fact is you swiftly made ridiclous conclusions, ignored my replies since you made a point, so no I don't belive you had honest intentions. Asking age old questions that do EGTB/EGBBs help to make a point is nothing but rhetorical, seemingly because your intentions went flat.

[syzygy]

Just.... relax ?

[Houdini]

Deuterium uses scorpio egbb and it works fine.
I make a test on houdini 3 with egbb vs deuterium with egbb, and houdini has a problem indeed in winning a won position.

I am surprised that RH didn't even bother verifying his integration of Scorpio bitbases Surprisingly they seem to work fine for everyone else.

The Houdini 3 egbb implementation was only intended for analysis, not for playing matches. It's even written in the Houdini 3 User's Manual:
"Scorpio bases are fine for analysis, but for playing games you may run into some difficulties in the final conversion phase. Inasmuch as the bitbases only contain win/draw/loss information, it can happen that a won position cannot be converted because it is unclear which move brings the position closer to mate."

Without DTM or DTZ information there is no fail-proof procedure that can guarantee the win in difficult endgames like KQPvKQ or KQvKNN.
The Syzygy bases provide DTZ information, which means that any winning endgame position will also be won by the engine - without any further analysis.

Robert

[Daniel Shawul]

Here they come again the Houdart-Syzgy partnership....

[mar]

Without DTM or DTZ information there is no fail-proof procedure that can guarantee the win in difficult endgames like KQPvKQ or KQvKNN.

Sorry but Houdini drew a won krpkr, it's not what I would call a difficult endgame.
Should be no problem when driven by eval, especially if Houdini can win this position by itself. I wouldn't blame the bitbases.

[lucasart]

LOS 99.9% as a stopping rule.

This rule is utter nonsense and makes your results completely void.

Also, are you sure you are talking about LOS (Bayesian model)? Or p-value?

I cannot begin to count the number of times when I've seen results like that after 100 or 200 games, and things change after 10000 games...

That being said, it is very possible that your conclusion is correct (Scorpio EGBB hurt more in terms of perf than they help). But what you show is no evidence whatsoever.

[gotogo]

here you will see a perfect example of scorpio egtb failing to close in won positions. plenty of games to look at...

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... pid=444588