Zugzwang Test Suite ZPTS by Robert Allgeuer

[Vinvin]

I took my GPS in car so he guides me from point A to point B. If it makes me go through xyz points, I throw it out the window.

Of course but the your target is not only to get from point A to point B but to do it fast.

When the target is to get higher chess rating it is unimportant if you win faster or slower.

You are mistaken ... The characteristic of a strong player or a strong engine is that most moves are more accurate, are rating increases, and vice versa. I am surprised to read this from you.

The sentence on the GPS was just a metaphor, as I will say this: "Over the tool is accurate, more efficient you are."

Now we do not go astray please, this thread is for discussions about the Zugzwang and the difficulty of engines in certain positions and not the checkmate in x or y number of moves started by smeone.

Playing a chess game is a lot more difficult than going from A to B by car. The positional understanding has become a key factor.

[zullil]

Sting Sf 4 can solve no. 14 in 1 minutes and no. 16. in 2 minutes (dual core).
Regarding problems with Stockfish:

"To have or to be?"

The latest Stockfish can solve number 16

[d]k2N2K1/8/8/8/5R2/3n4/3p4/8 w - - 0 1

in less than 2.5 minutes using just one thread:

Code: Select all

info depth 30 seldepth 57 score cp 0 nodes 413065524 nps 2937417 time 140622 multipv 1 pv f4f7 d2d1q d8c6 d1g4 g8f8 g4c8 f8g7 c8c6 f7f8 a8b7 f8f7 b7c8 f7f8 c8d7 f8f7 d7e6 f7f6 e6d7 f6c6 d7c6

Using 16 threads, it sees the draw in less than 4 seconds:

Code: Select all

info depth 24 seldepth 40 score cp 0 nodes 43093774 nps 11606187 time 3713 multipv 1 pv f4f7 d2d1q d8c6 d1g4 g8f8 g4c8 f8g7 c8c6 f7f8 a8b7 f8f7 b7c8 f7f8 c8c7 f8f7 c7d8 f7f8 d8e7 f8f7 e7e8 f7f8 e8d7 f8f7 d7d8

About to try number 14.

[lech]

Sting Sf 4 can solve no. 14 in 1 minutes and no. 16. in 2 minutes (dual core).
Regarding problems with Stockfish:

"To have or to be?"

The latest Stockfish can solve number 16

...

Very well! It is good to feel the diference: chess or elo engine.
I hope now all can see why Sting SF is a very important engine. The code of Sting SF 4 gives a possibility to solve all zugzwang positions.
Maybe it is better to cut the null move search than to be able to solve only simple zugzwang positions.

[phenri]

I made a chart of the positions that pose problems to the engines. And if anyone is interested I also made some remarks regarding SF.
I rechecked many of them.


NB: Red positions that are very difficult for the engines.

[zullil]

Here's number 14:

[d]6k1/3p4/P2P4/8/5Kp1/1p4Q1/p5p1/b7 w - - 0 1

Stockfish with 16 threads finds the move in about 17 seconds:

Code: Select all

info depth 32 seldepth 59 score cp 8 lowerbound nodes 274517286 nps 16350046 time 16790 multipv 1 pv g3g2 a1e5 f4f5 a2a1q a6a7 a1a7 f5g6 e5d6 g2d5 g8h8 d5d6

Not going to try with just one thread.

[zullil]

Maybe it is better to cut the null move search than to be able to solve only simple zugzwang positions.

I assume it would be simple to add a new UCI option "Enable Null Move Pruning" to Stockfish. Then the user could easily choose for himself.

[bob]

I took my GPS in car so he guides me from point A to point B. If it makes me go through xyz points, I throw it out the window.

No rule in chess says "you must play the shortest possible mate." Hence, not all engines try to do that. The first mate found is more than good enough.

There are no rules in effect, it's just a matter of common sense.
An engine that shows lazy in his search for checkmate, it leaves me very great doubts in his choice of moves in the rest of the game. If you can not understand it ...

I suppose ALL humans are inherently lazy then? Once you find and verify a forced mate, do you continue to burn time on your clock looking to see if you can find something shorter? Your comment about other moves in the rest of the game makes absolutely zero sense. A mate is forced. Period. Guaranteed by the search. Other moves are not forced, except in rare cases, so a program's choice there is "iffy" anyway.

[bob]

I took my GPS in car so he guides me from point A to point B. If it makes me go through xyz points, I throw it out the window.

Of course but the your target is not only to get from point A to point B but to do it fast.

When the target is to get higher chess rating it is unimportant if you win faster or slower.

You are mistaken ... The characteristic of a strong player or a strong engine is that most moves are more accurate, are rating increases, and vice versa. I am surprised to read this from you.

The sentence on the GPS was just a metaphor, as I will say this: "Over the tool is accurate, more efficient you are."

Now we do not go astray please, this thread is for discussions about the Zugzwang and the difficulty of engines in certain positions and not the checkmate in x or y number of moves started by someone.

Your statement is nonsense. Are world champion candidates weak? A few years ago I was watching a game where Topolov played a move that left him two choices on the next move, give up his queen (lose) or get checkmated in 1 (lose). Yet he played the move that instantly lost. Strength does NOT imply perfection.

[phenri]

I took my GPS in car so he guides me from point A to point B. If it makes me go through xyz points, I throw it out the window.

Of course but the your target is not only to get from point A to point B but to do it fast.

When the target is to get higher chess rating it is unimportant if you win faster or slower.

You are mistaken ... The characteristic of a strong player or a strong engine is that most moves are more accurate, are rating increases, and vice versa. I am surprised to read this from you.

The sentence on the GPS was just a metaphor, as I will say this: "Over the tool is accurate, more efficient you are."

Now we do not go astray please, this thread is for discussions about the Zugzwang and the difficulty of engines in certain positions and not the checkmate in x or y number of moves started by someone.

(blah blah blah)
Are world champion candidates weak?
(blah blah blah)

Excuse me, but where did you read that?
With all the respect, now stop breaking my balls.

[bob]

I took my GPS in car so he guides me from point A to point B. If it makes me go through xyz points, I throw it out the window.

Of course but the your target is not only to get from point A to point B but to do it fast.

When the target is to get higher chess rating it is unimportant if you win faster or slower.

You are mistaken ... The characteristic of a strong player or a strong engine is that most moves are more accurate, are rating increases, and vice versa. I am surprised to read this from you.

The sentence on the GPS was just a metaphor, as I will say this: "Over the tool is accurate, more efficient you are."

Now we do not go astray please, this thread is for discussions about the Zugzwang and the difficulty of engines in certain positions and not the checkmate in x or y number of moves started by someone.

(blah blah blah)
Are world champion candidates weak?
(blah blah blah)

Excuse me, but where did you read that?
With all the respect, now stop breaking my balls.

Got it from this:

The characteristic of a strong player or a strong engine is that most moves are more accurate, are rating increases,

ALL players make mistakes. I don't happen to call not finding the shortest mate a "mistake" however. The object of the game of chess is to beat your opponent. No extra points for doing it in fewer moves.