morality and legality of dowloading robbolito

[K I Hyams]

Your logic is flawed, however. Vas _claimed_ this program is a copy of Rybka 3. He opened the door.

Yes I realize that he has said so... so I don't see how my logic is flawed just because he said such a thing. I have to take his word on that, and until it is demonstrated to me he is a habitual liar and/or can't be trusted, I will take him at his word. That is good enough for me for the work I have to do.

In the past, I have been in email contact with Vas about issues that had little to do with Rybka. For what it is worth, he came across as an honest man. In addition, the evidence that Robbolito is either a derivitive of Rybka or a gestalt incorporating Rybka is in my opinion far in excess of that which is required to obtain a favourable verdict in a civil court in the UK.

"Put up or shut up" is a crude representation of Bob Hyatt's point and is one that has gained common acceptance. While it may be possible to make a case to explain why Vas won't release fragments of code that the two engines have in common, it seems harder to explain why he has not released fragments of the emails which he states that those who may have abused his code sent to him.

[Steve B]

Your logic is flawed, however. Vas _claimed_ this program is a copy of Rybka 3. He opened the door.

Yes I realize that he has said so... so I don't see how my logic is flawed just because he said such a thing. I have to take his word on that, and until it is demonstrated to me he is a habitual liar and/or can't be trusted, I will take him at his word. That is good enough for me for the work I have to do.

Hi Rob
interesting post about the speeding tickets
i enjoyed that.. really
personally i have received only one speeding ticket in my life and i was going 61 in a 55
im still pissed off about that


back to the issue at hand though..
i think you missed Bobs point
Vas remained silent regarding Fruit yet he spoke out loud about Strelka and Ippo(he said they were clones of Rybka) and this resulted in the controversy we have today
in other words he was inconsistent
you cant have it both ways

When Vas chooses to remain silent ..you see wisdom in his actions (and you tend to think those that remain silent are innocent )
but when he speaks out ..you have to take him at his words
that opinion is well within your rights to hold ..but i think a
better portrayal of your position here is that you tend to believe him whether he remains silent or speaks out

which is your choice of course
Regards
Steve
PS..not so sure about your opinion that Silence tends to mean someone is innocent(with no other evidence)
did you ever arrest someone (guilty in your eyes) and suddenly think they were innocent because they did not go back to be booked kicking and screaming along the way?

[michiguel]

1. When the fruit issue came up, he should have responded with factual arguments. He remained silent, which actually spoke _volumes_.

2. When this new program surfaced, he quickly (again) claimed that it was a clone derived from Rybka, just as was done in the Strelka case previously. And when pressured for proof, has remained completely silent, again speaking _volumes_.

One can only exercise the right to remain silent for so long before the silence itself becomes quite revealing.

With all due respect Dr. Hyatt, remaining silent doesn't "speak _volumes_" it speaks absolutely nothing unless one is hell bent on assuming guilt or innocence of a person. (Although I am prejudiced here, as I tend to think the quiet ones, barring evidence to the contrary, are the innocent ones.)

I found while a law enforcement officer, Whether guilty or innocent, it was the ones with a modicum of wisdom who kept their mouth shut (speaking as little as possible). A person who tended to run his mouth did one thing: dig his own grave deeper.

In my own life when accused of something false, I didn't feel I had a need to justify myself to anyone. If IA (Internal Affairs) wanted a statement, they got their statement. If my Lt. wanted "my version" of events, he got my version of events. Everyone else could believe what they wanted to believe. As for me, I conducted myself in the way I felt was honorable and let that speak for itself.

It could be (and this is my sincere belief in this case) Vas has no real care for who thinks what about his engine. What does it matter to him? Why should it matter? All the clamouring to say this or that about Rybka... it says one thing... he doesn't care to answer to those who have demanded answers. That is all it says.

Your logic is flawed, however. Vas _claimed_ this program is a copy of Rybka 3. He opened the door. And offered absolutely no proof. Even though testers have concluded that this thing is stronger than R3 by a significant amount. So the question becomes, "if it is stronger, how can it be a copy?" And we get absolutely no supporting information. He's not been the one that was accused, he was the accuser. And he should have offered some evidence to support his claim. That hasn't happened, and it looks bad to at least some of us.

In the US, one might call that "defamation of character". Anyone can accuse someone else of something. But they had better be prepared to either offer proof, or defend themselves in civil court (or even criminal court if the accusation is made to law enforcement).

Defamation of whom? Anonymous hackers?

Miguel

[Rolf]

Your logic is flawed, however. Vas _claimed_ this program is a copy of Rybka 3. He opened the door.

Yes I realize that he has said so... so I don't see how my logic is flawed just because he said such a thing. I have to take his word on that, and until it is demonstrated to me he is a habitual liar and/or can't be trusted, I will take him at his word. That is good enough for me for the work I have to do.

Hi Rob
interesting post about the speeding tickets
i enjoyed that.. really
personally i have received only one speeding ticket in my life and i was going 61 in a 55
im still pissed off about that

back to the issue at hand though..
i think you missed Bobs point

Vas remained silent regarding Fruit but he spoke fairly out loud about Strelka and Ippo(he said they were clones of Rybka)
in other words he was inconsistent
you cant have it both ways
When Vas is silent you see wisdom in his actions and tend to think those that remain silent are innocent
when he speaks out you have to take him at his words

a better portrayal of your position here is that you tend to believe him whether he remains silent or speaks out

which is your choice of course
Regards
Steve

Hi Steve,

Yes, we all have our suffering with inconsistencies. Once upon a time experts laughed about me when I claimed that Rybka couldnt be a copy of Fruit if it were so much stronger. Actually Bob is using my own argument in defense of this robbed entity. But didnt we learn that we cant have it both ways? BTW if Bob had consulted me on the entity and its strength I would have said that a Fata Morgana isnt a scientifical evidence.

If this forum could profit from one aspect of the whole conflict then it is that Vas is, like many other top chess programmers a role model of decent manners just through that what they dont say. He never even accused or attacked, not to speak of insulted any of his collegues here. However here it seems popular that no-names and pseudos are more trusted than pretty famous US born chess software developers with MIT examins. I wouldnt expect that to be honest about it. How can you trust invisible fake figures who like Osipov confessed that they intended to do harm to Vas?

The same with the actual stealers. If you take it into a big picture there are people here who sent the robbed and tuned thing via email and announced further interest in dirty deeds. Now Vas reports that and still says that the best is to ignore all that. Now this is taken by one of the most famous collegues of Vas as if that shouldnt exist at all. That either Vas shouldnt have come with Rybka 1 at all or he should now give in into the blackmail of some anonymous rascals. Steve, you are American like Bob, please explain this logic to the Europeans like me.

If you are stalked by anonymous jerks you must strip and dance hoping that they will let you live or what is the background of that lynch fantasy that someone innocent is quickly defined as the main culprit just because he doesnt react at all? I thought you had the law that nobody should be seen guilty before he wasnt judged guilty in a fair trial? Note well that the jerks approached Vas via email and sent him his own code as a blackmail sign of what they could be able to faire. And these are put above Vas status?? What is going on here, Steve?

Could it be that Bob is really and certainly THE computerchess dino number one but not a lawyer nor a judge nor the police?

[Rolf]

"Put up or shut up" is a crude representation of Bob Hyatt's point and is one that has gained common acceptance. While it may be possible to make a case to explain why Vas won't release fragments of code that the two engines have in common, it seems harder to explain why he has not released fragments of the emails which he states that those who may have abused his code sent to him.

This is absolutely aside of the main thing that happened. Put up or shut up is indeed a very clever slogan if someone wanted to prove something but this isnt the case at all. Vas never wanted to take this into a court trial against his anonymous blackmailers. What he did was telling his community/users what had happened so that they could know what might be the consequences nothing more nothing less. Nowhere have I read any indication of such a foolish insinuation that Vas could have meant something near to the idea that by now he had marked a sort of scientifical proof about the clone state or such things. He published the naked fact when it had come and said that was his sole reaction onsuch crap.

No need to elaborate what this could mean in a UK court system, on Mars or visavis the Sicilian Mafia.

More and more it becomes clear that we have a lot here who mourn about the fact that Vas didnt say more. They react like a deceived lover of a woman who's just not incited enough to lift her eyebrows not to speak about any other things. Sorry but my mastership in English forbids me to make any correct idioms, rhymes or verses. But it would be certainly a big step for mankind if I finally could.

[K I Hyams]

"Put up or shut up" is a crude representation of Bob Hyatt's point and is one that has gained common acceptance. While it may be possible to make a case to explain why Vas won't release fragments of code that the two engines have in common, it seems harder to explain why he has not released fragments of the emails which he states that those who may have abused his code sent to him.

This is absolutely aside of the main thing that happened. Put up or shut up is indeed a very clever slogan if someone wanted to prove something but this isnt the case at all. Vas never wanted to take this into a court trial against his anonymous blackmailers. What he did was telling his community/users what had happened so that they could know what might be the consequences nothing more nothing less. Nowhere have I read any indication of such a foolish insinuation that Vas could have meant something near to the idea that by now he had marked a sort of scientifical proof about the clone state or such things. He published the naked fact when it had come and said that was his sole reaction onsuch crap.

No need to elaborate what this could mean in a UK court system, on Mars or visavis the Sicilian Mafia.

More and more it becomes clear that we have a lot here who mourn about the fact that Vas didnt say more. They react like a deceived lover of a woman who's just not incited enough to lift her eyebrows not to speak about any other things. Sorry but my mastership in English forbids me to make any correct idioms, rhymes or verses. But it would be certainly a big step for mankind if I finally could.

I thought that you were refusing to talk to me because I launch tirades of "hate speech" against you. You have disappointed me yet again!!! I will however grant you permission to reread my post in order to gain a better understanding of what I was saying.

[Rolf]

"Put up or shut up" is a crude representation of Bob Hyatt's point and is one that has gained common acceptance. While it may be possible to make a case to explain why Vas won't release fragments of code that the two engines have in common, it seems harder to explain why he has not released fragments of the emails which he states that those who may have abused his code sent to him.

This is absolutely aside of the main thing that happened. Put up or shut up is indeed a very clever slogan if someone wanted to prove something but this isnt the case at all. Vas never wanted to take this into a court trial against his anonymous blackmailers. What he did was telling his community/users what had happened so that they could know what might be the consequences nothing more nothing less. Nowhere have I read any indication of such a foolish insinuation that Vas could have meant something near to the idea that by now he had marked a sort of scientifical proof about the clone state or such things. He published the naked fact when it had come and said that was his sole reaction onsuch crap.

No need to elaborate what this could mean in a UK court system, on Mars or visavis the Sicilian Mafia.

More and more it becomes clear that we have a lot here who mourn about the fact that Vas didnt say more. They react like a deceived lover of a woman who's just not incited enough to lift her eyebrows not to speak about any other things. Sorry but my mastership in English forbids me to make any correct idioms, rhymes or verses. But it would be certainly a big step for mankind if I finally could.

I thought that you were refusing to talk to me because I launch tirades of "hate speech" against you. There, you see, you have disappointed me again!!!

Please remain in topic. The CTF is another playground. Here at least it's nothing personal. So come back on topic. I commented on the text not someone hidden which anyway I dont know at all.

[Andres Valverde]

What is your opinion about downloading robbolito and using it?
I mean only to the people who use it and not to the people who develop it
and at least part of the people who admit using it write with their real name.

Uri

For _using_ it i voted :

Illegal and Inmoral : As it is clearly a decompiled and more or less modified Rybka.

[mariaclara]

hmmmmmmmmm...............

not sure..

What is your opinion about downloading robbolito and using it?
I mean only to the people who use it and not to the people who develop it
and at least part of the people who admit using it write with their real name.

Uri

gosh. just love polls?

[K I Hyams]

"Put up or shut up" is a crude representation of Bob Hyatt's point and is one that has gained common acceptance. While it may be possible to make a case to explain why Vas won't release fragments of code that the two engines have in common, it seems harder to explain why he has not released fragments of the emails which he states that those who may have abused his code sent to him.

This is absolutely aside of the main thing that happened. Put up or shut up is indeed a very clever slogan if someone wanted to prove something but this isnt the case at all. Vas never wanted to take this into a court trial against his anonymous blackmailers. What he did was telling his community/users what had happened so that they could know what might be the consequences nothing more nothing less. Nowhere have I read any indication of such a foolish insinuation that Vas could have meant something near to the idea that by now he had marked a sort of scientifical proof about the clone state or such things. He published the naked fact when it had come and said that was his sole reaction onsuch crap.

No need to elaborate what this could mean in a UK court system, on Mars or visavis the Sicilian Mafia.

More and more it becomes clear that we have a lot here who mourn about the fact that Vas didnt say more. They react like a deceived lover of a woman who's just not incited enough to lift her eyebrows not to speak about any other things. Sorry but my mastership in English forbids me to make any correct idioms, rhymes or verses. But it would be certainly a big step for mankind if I finally could.

I thought that you were refusing to talk to me because I launch tirades of "hate speech" against you. There, you see, you have disappointed me again!!!

Please remain in topic. The CTF is another playground. Here at least it's nothing personal. So come back on topic. I commented on the text not someone hidden which anyway I dont know at all.

OK Rolf, you appear to have misunderstood the salient parts of my post because you read it with preconceived ideas.

My post was nothing to do with “what this could mean in a UK court system, on Mars or visavis the Sicilian Mafia”. I merely referred to the probability that there was sufficient evidence to win a court case, in order to convey the idea that the evidence that Robbolito was either a derivative or a gestalt (but not a clone) was very strong.

I also implied the point that, if Vas wanted his “lovers” to be aware that the putative abusers of his code had sent him emails about it, then it would be both sensible and courteous to his lovers to release parts of those emails that did not prejudice his interests.

Although YOU exude emotional reactions to what may or may not be a setback to Vas, if you are implying that, in my post, there are any signs whatsoever of having reacted “like a deceived lover of a woman who's just not incited enough to lift her eyebrows not to speak about any other things.” , then rather like Vas and the emails, I would ask you to point to the evidence, if doing so does not damage your interests.

I hope that this fleeting communication does nothing to weaken your resolve never to talk to me again on CTF. Keep in mind the phrase "hate speech"