Crafty accused of copying Fruit PST

[M ANSARI]

It seems that at one point some of Fruit's PST values were copied by Crafty and tuned with a constant. While that may seem reasonable and part of a tuning process, this is exactly what Vas has been accused of.

Not at all. Vas has been accused (and proven guilty) of copying large chunks of other programs, including both algorithms and data structures, to the point that it became obvious that rybka 1.0 was just a tuned version of Fruit's sources with chunks of Crafty in it.

Here, what the zealots at rybkaforum are trying to accomplish is to desperately throw suspicion above Bob and Crafty. What they found was one single data structure: the bishop PST. As I don't know if Crafty got it from Fruit, or by Bob's team own research, or if, at the contrary, Fruit got it from Crafty, I won't comment this. What I'll say anyway is that it is NOT at all what Vas did, not in spirit, nor in scale. So your statement "this is what Vas did" can't stand, not even taking into account your "exactly"...

I suppose it will shock you to know that the most zealots who blindly follow Bob, or anything they can- I call them follow the crowd simpletons- are right here on Talk Chess. He gets much more criticism on the Rybka forum. For example: From YOUR RESEARCH, and no one others, explain how you KNOW Vas is guilty. I thought so- you haven't a clue.

This forum is overrun with guys who won't let facts get in the way of the truth. No respect for other opinions. An exception to this rule, one who values his own opinion and respects others- is Ted Summers. The hate mob on this forum could take lessons from him.

Don't worry, I have no doubt you like to call people names. And as this seem to be a prevalent characteristics of the Rybka followers it doesn't help people who first felt neutral to feel any sympathy for them.

So you doubt the panel? Are you calling them liars? As for me, I respect the names in this list, so I tend to believe them instead of the over-excited Rybka fan. And as a jurist myself I have quite a good understanding of what a world where everyone could make ones justice oneself and ever contest tribunal decisions would lead to: anarchy, savagery, barbary.

Before Fabien's letter, I tended to get annoyed by those who I thought were throwing mud at Rybka, as my first reaction in such circumstances is usually to suspect jealousy of small people. Although something troubled me: some of my friends who were not engine developers nor had any financial or sportsmanship interest into this question but were skilled and connoisseur people were sure Rybka was a fruit clone, and that since nearly the beginning of Rybka. So after Fabien's letter I wondered if maybe there was a real case here after all, and got convinced by the panel's investigations. That and Vas' inability to present any counter-evidence.

Now, watching the hysteric and insulting fanatic crowd at Rybka forum doesn't really help to feel any sympathy for the Rybka case, nor doest it make me feel much hope for Mankind's ability to get better and control ones instincts. Poor Vas, having such defenders really doesn't help...

Ok that makes sense ... so you were one of the people accusing Vas and you seem to dislike any information that shows that maybe you did something wrong. You totally dismiss a setup that was used to accuse Vas of wrong doing because it is only one set of PST tables? Well, what if we assume that ALL the tables were stolen from Fruit at one time, and that the other tables were modified enough to remove any similarity (Bob does mention robust cluster tuning) and the only remaining artifact of the original plunder is the bishop PST's ... so to obfuscate it let us add +8 and all will be good. I know this is all assuming stuff, and the "ASS" out of "U" and "ME" is relevant and all. But this sort of assuming seems to have been OK when you were on your witch hunt ... most likely a lot of asses were made then. You never used the sources that participated in the ICGA, yet you "assumed" that this was irrelevant and that Rybka 1.0 beta was good enough to base your assumptions on. Playing the Rybka Forum Maniacs card it silly, stupid and getting old. If you have something that can show how an entire PST table can be identical with adding a +8 constant without copying the original set of data please please show it. Denegrading an entire group of people simply because they disagree with you is not really helping much.

Yet another disappointing post, Mr Ansari.

* You write "so you were one of the people accusing Vas". This is a lie: I wrote I was neutral until I read the ICGA's decision, that convinced me of Vad's guiltiness. Again, I'm a jurist, so for me everyone is innocent until proven guilty. I even wrote that I didn't like how people were throwing mud at Rybka during all those years. I even wasn't one of the prosecutors, I was just an observer whose sympathy was for Vas in the beginning. Until the gathered evidences made me reverse my opinion. And... until his hysteric sycophants made him look like the Guru of a sect of madmen.

* You write "You totally dismiss a setup that was used to accuse Vas of wrong doing because it is only one set of PST tables". This is a lie, as I wrote just the contrary, saying it was one of the points. But only one of the numerous points. I also said that I had no ideas of who copied whom in this bishop PST skirmish, and so couldn't even have an opinion regarding it, and so certainly not feel any authority to "dismiss" it, as you dared to write.

For the rest of your post, I have the feeling you were addressing someone else (like Bob?) instead of me...

You people scare me. I'm scared to see how easily passion can make people lose their objectivity and their rationality. In your hysteric madness you even turn neutral people against you. You spread hatred, lies and antagonism, making enemies of people who had nothing against you. You made fools of yourself, creating dissension and iniquity in the process. You use lies, give up rationality and resort to personal attacks. This is plain and simple madness.

If a cause is just and fair, then it doesn't need lies to get cleaned. No good can be done with bad. If you people are ready to resort to such methods, with such consequences among our once friendly community, for something as anecdotical as a chess program, what will you do with real life problems? This is the very root to why people like Hitler, Stalin and their likes can achieve such apocalyptical results. If I weren't a christian, I would despair, seeing how Mankind seems to never learn and always repeat the same mistakes, even in the smallest things.

I have no illusion at all when I write this, but I'll say it anyway: calm down, put yourself together and recover a few basic human attributes like: reason, politeness, friendship, kindness, objectivity. I am not, and have no reason to be, your enemy, so I'd like you and your likes to stop acting like you needed to have enemies you could fight. I don't even know you. I don't know who your family is, what principles they taught you, why your friends like you and other people don't. And the same for you with me. Yet you're putting words in my mouth I've never told, act aggressive with me and seem happily willing to turn me into an enemy. People who know me consider me as a friendly person, but think if I were to be otherwise, and, for instance, as sanguine as you seem to be: soon the most unpleasant names would be exchanged here in a growingly hideous caricature of a kindergarden. I have no interest in that.

I don't know exactly what you're trying to accomplish here, but I'm sure of something: nothing good and productive can be accomplished by trying to turn everyone into enemies in the process. If you are so sure that something unfair has been done, then learn to erase the bad with the good. Be gentle, be logic, be polite and that way maybe, *maybe*, you'll get people's sympathy and attention on your case instead of turning them against you.

"You people" ... what the fuck is that supposed to mean "you people". I certainly resent that you seem to find it useful to denegrade some who are disagreeing with what you beleive in. Calling me and others that disagree with you or what the ICGA has done as "manic" or otherwise crazy lunatics is silly and not helpful and I certainly do not view this issue with the zeal you seem to portray. I am actually enjoying a summer vacation travelling around europe and come online every once in a while to post. I of course do feel that Vas has been victimized and as I consider him a personal friend for many years (as I consider many on this very forum), I resent how he has been fingered out and publicly vilified and labeled as a "cheat" and "thief" without due process. IMHO the ICGA was simply used as a cover to try to dismiss all the incredible achievements he has given to computer chess. I am sure most of the people on the ICGA had good intentions, but they let themselves be swayed and pushed into quickly singling out Vas as guilty and rushed into a conclusion. Had some of the dissenting voices by equally talented programmers been heard, maybe some might have not given their seal of approval so quickly. You would have to be really crazy to believe that nothing would have changed had this healthy debate been part of the ICGA investigation.

[K I Hyams]

Hello Julien,
I would have been proud to have been the author of that post above. Alas, it will make no difference to those whom it is addressed to. What is odd to me is that if one case condemns an open source program, how much more so do several cases condemn a closed source, commercial program?

You have written a beautiful piece of prose and I agree with it wholeheartedly.

+100 as they say.

Later.

Yes, the post chimed with me as well. He makes some important points about issues that arise from the Rybka site that are far greater than the business ethics and morality of Rajlich. I have a morbid curiosity and so I visit the Rybka site occasionally. His two quotes, below, go a substantial way towards explaining why I always leave the Rybka site with the urge to invert a metal bucket over my head and beat it with a wooden spoon.

"You people scare me. I'm scared to see how easily passion can make people lose their objectivity and their rationality. In your hysteric madness you even turn neutral people against you. You spread hatred, lies and antagonism, making enemies of people who had nothing against you. You made fools of yourself, creating dissension and iniquity in the process. You use lies, give up rationality and resort to personal attacks. This is plain and simple madness".

"................. If you people are ready to resort to such methods, with such consequences among our once friendly community, for something as anecdotical as a chess program, what will you do with real life problems? This is the very root to why people like Hitler, Stalin and their likes can achieve such apocalyptical results. If I weren't a christian, I would despair, seeing how Mankind seems to never learn and always repeat the same mistakes, even in the smallest things".


The site is over-populated with the dysfunctional, the delusional and the functionally illiterate. He also acknowledges the futility of arguing with such people. I agree, however I have to admit that today I succumbed to the temptation to address one of the more implausible claims of the Lukas character. I came away with the impression that the devout have taken a turn for the worse.

[michiguel]

It seems that at one point some of Fruit's PST values were copied by Crafty and tuned with a constant. While that may seem reasonable and part of a tuning process, this is exactly what Vas has been accused of.

Not at all. Vas has been accused (and proven guilty) of copying large chunks of other programs, including both algorithms and data structures, to the point that it became obvious that rybka 1.0 was just a tuned version of Fruit's sources with chunks of Crafty in it.

Here, what the zealots at rybkaforum are trying to accomplish is to desperately throw suspicion above Bob and Crafty. What they found was one single data structure: the bishop PST. As I don't know if Crafty got it from Fruit, or by Bob's team own research, or if, at the contrary, Fruit got it from Crafty, I won't comment this. What I'll say anyway is that it is NOT at all what Vas did, not in spirit, nor in scale. So your statement "this is what Vas did" can't stand, not even taking into account your "exactly"...

Hi, this is the zealot who found a Crafty table (duplicated as midgame and endgame) identical to Fruit. You have no idea why this was done, and you should read the whole thread before discrediting other people. The reason I looked at Crafty was because Bob CHALLENGED me to find a similarity between a Fruit table and Crafty. This basically demonstrated, in a really ironic way, the commonality between some of these type of structures, which was my whole point all along. I even wrote code about it trying to illustrate this and I was carefully analyzing the data. You may disagree or not, but you (all people at talkchess) are not better or worse than the posters at Rybka forum. Most here already jumped at the yellowish sarcastic headline without even looking at what was going on.

Miguel

[geots]

It seems that at one point some of Fruit's PST values were copied by Crafty and tuned with a constant. While that may seem reasonable and part of a tuning process, this is exactly what Vas has been accused of.

Not at all. Vas has been accused (and proven guilty) of copying large chunks of other programs, including both algorithms and data structures, to the point that it became obvious that rybka 1.0 was just a tuned version of Fruit's sources with chunks of Crafty in it.

Here, what the zealots at rybkaforum are trying to accomplish is to desperately throw suspicion above Bob and Crafty. What they found was one single data structure: the bishop PST. As I don't know if Crafty got it from Fruit, or by Bob's team own research, or if, at the contrary, Fruit got it from Crafty, I won't comment this. What I'll say anyway is that it is NOT at all what Vas did, not in spirit, nor in scale. So your statement "this is what Vas did" can't stand, not even taking into account your "exactly"...

I suppose it will shock you to know that the most zealots who blindly follow Bob, or anything they can- I call them follow the crowd simpletons- are right here on Talk Chess. He gets much more criticism on the Rybka forum. For example: From YOUR RESEARCH, and no one others, explain how you KNOW Vas is guilty. I thought so- you haven't a clue.

This forum is overrun with guys who won't let facts get in the way of the truth. No respect for other opinions. An exception to this rule, one who values his own opinion and respects others- is Ted Summers. The hate mob on this forum could take lessons from him.

Don't worry, I have no doubt you like to call people names. And as this seem to be a prevalent characteristics of the Rybka followers it doesn't help people who first felt neutral to feel any sympathy for them.

So you doubt the panel? Are you calling them liars? As for me, I respect the names in this list, so I tend to believe them instead of the over-excited Rybka fan. And as a jurist myself I have quite a good understanding of what a world where everyone could make ones justice oneself and ever contest tribunal decisions would lead to: anarchy, savagery, barbary.

Before Fabien's letter, I tended to get annoyed by those who I thought were throwing mud at Rybka, as my first reaction in such circumstances is usually to suspect jealousy of small people. Although something troubled me: some of my friends who were not engine developers nor had any financial or sportsmanship interest into this question but were skilled and connoisseur people were sure Rybka was a fruit clone, and that since nearly the beginning of Rybka. So after Fabien's letter I wondered if maybe there was a real case here after all, and got convinced by the panel's investigations. That and Vas' inability to present any counter-evidence.

Now, watching the hysteric and insulting fanatic crowd at Rybka forum doesn't really help to feel any sympathy for the Rybka case, nor doest it make me feel much hope for Mankind's ability to get better and control ones instincts. Poor Vas, having such defenders really doesn't help...

Ok that makes sense ... so you were one of the people accusing Vas and you seem to dislike any information that shows that maybe you did something wrong. You totally dismiss a setup that was used to accuse Vas of wrong doing because it is only one set of PST tables? Well, what if we assume that ALL the tables were stolen from Fruit at one time, and that the other tables were modified enough to remove any similarity (Bob does mention robust cluster tuning) and the only remaining artifact of the original plunder is the bishop PST's ... so to obfuscate it let us add +8 and all will be good. I know this is all assuming stuff, and the "ASS" out of "U" and "ME" is relevant and all. But this sort of assuming seems to have been OK when you were on your witch hunt ... most likely a lot of asses were made then. You never used the sources that participated in the ICGA, yet you "assumed" that this was irrelevant and that Rybka 1.0 beta was good enough to base your assumptions on. Playing the Rybka Forum Maniacs card it silly, stupid and getting old. If you have something that can show how an entire PST table can be identical with adding a +8 constant without copying the original set of data please please show it. Denegrading an entire group of people simply because they disagree with you is not really helping much.

Yet another disappointing post, Mr Ansari.

* You write "so you were one of the people accusing Vas". This is a lie: I wrote I was neutral until I read the ICGA's decision, that convinced me of Vad's guiltiness. Again, I'm a jurist, so for me everyone is innocent until proven guilty. I even wrote that I didn't like how people were throwing mud at Rybka during all those years. I even wasn't one of the prosecutors, I was just an observer whose sympathy was for Vas in the beginning. Until the gathered evidences made me reverse my opinion. And... until his hysteric sycophants made him look like the Guru of a sect of madmen.

* You write "You totally dismiss a setup that was used to accuse Vas of wrong doing because it is only one set of PST tables". This is a lie, as I wrote just the contrary, saying it was one of the points. But only one of the numerous points. I also said that I had no ideas of who copied whom in this bishop PST skirmish, and so couldn't even have an opinion regarding it, and so certainly not feel any authority to "dismiss" it, as you dared to write.

For the rest of your post, I have the feeling you were addressing someone else (like Bob?) instead of me...

You people scare me. I'm scared to see how easily passion can make people lose their objectivity and their rationality. In your hysteric madness you even turn neutral people against you. You spread hatred, lies and antagonism, making enemies of people who had nothing against you. You made fools of yourself, creating dissension and iniquity in the process. You use lies, give up rationality and resort to personal attacks. This is plain and simple madness.

If a cause is just and fair, then it doesn't need lies to get cleaned. No good can be done with bad. If you people are ready to resort to such methods, with such consequences among our once friendly community, for something as anecdotical as a chess program, what will you do with real life problems? This is the very root to why people like Hitler, Stalin and their likes can achieve such apocalyptical results. If I weren't a christian, I would despair, seeing how Mankind seems to never learn and always repeat the same mistakes, even in the smallest things.

I have no illusion at all when I write this, but I'll say it anyway: calm down, put yourself together and recover a few basic human attributes like: reason, politeness, friendship, kindness, objectivity. I am not, and have no reason to be, your enemy, so I'd like you and your likes to stop acting like you needed to have enemies you could fight. I don't even know you. I don't know who your family is, what principles they taught you, why your friends like you and other people don't. And the same for you with me. Yet you're putting words in my mouth I've never told, act aggressive with me and seem happily willing to turn me into an enemy. People who know me consider me as a friendly person, but think if I were to be otherwise, and, for instance, as sanguine as you seem to be: soon the most unpleasant names would be exchanged here in a growingly hideous caricature of a kindergarden. I have no interest in that.

I don't know exactly what you're trying to accomplish here, but I'm sure of something: nothing good and productive can be accomplished by trying to turn everyone into enemies in the process. If you are so sure that something unfair has been done, then learn to erase the bad with the good. Be gentle, be logic, be polite and that way maybe, *maybe*, you'll get people's sympathy and attention on your case instead of turning them against you.

Mr. Ansari, as you call him, is not a liar. If you mention his "lies", then they had to come from a liar, right? I am glad Roger Brown loves your prose. That doesn't surprise me a bit. You have invoked Hitler, Stalin, God, the apocalypse, Mankind, Christians in a thread with 3 or 4 sections that basically say nothing, except he doesn't agree with you. "Mr. Ansari", as you like to refer to him, is right. He even says that parts of his thread are not proven- yet. And I am quite sure God is not unhappy with his post, even tho Roger seems to be. And trust me, "Mankind", which you have invoked 4 times in 2 threads, will survive this terrible attack on him by "Mr. Ansari". I wouldn't try to argue with someone who actually KNOWS something, when all you seem to be able to do is criticize and speculate on the ramifications to mankind. Small wonder that Roger is impressed with your writings. I will leave you with a few thoughts that Mr. Ansari and I agree on:

You mention the crazies on the Rybka Forum. Well then you better include Bob Hyatt, who invited me up there to get in the discussion they were having over the Rybka issue. He told me it was the best forum to have a lively, civil debate on the issue. Wonder why he said that? I'll bet it aint hard for you to figure out. And Bob and I, along with others, debated it in back and forth threads for 3 or 4 days. I said many of the same things I am going to tell you now. NOT ONLY DID BOB NOT MENTION that Ansari and I were spreading hatred and lies, and making fools of ourselves, for saying THE EXACT things Ansari said here, and what I am about to say- he respected the opinions. Even tho he did not agree with most of our points. Bob and I enjoyed the back and forth with me, Ansari, CW and others. You are the first to have a problem with it. Since you coined the phrase above by saying "it is acting like a fool", in a thread Roger seems to love, I am sure it will be ok to say that you are the one acting like a fool. Oh yes, you said Ansari is also spreading hatred and madness. When was the last time you took a close look at yourself.

My points made on Rybka Forum (only a few of them here) that Bob described as civil and thoughtful- whether he agreed or not:

One member said before the panel had looked at the evidence- NOTE BEFORE HAVING SEEN ANY EVIDENCE- THAT THERE WAS NO DOUBT IT WOULD BE A UNANIMOUS GUILTY VERDICT, AND VOTING WAS JUST A FORMALITY. I asked 2 others who verified it had been said. I will hazard a guess you would be glad it wasn't you who was supposed to be getting a fair hearing.

The panel members who were the smartest and most qualified to study the evidence- DID NOT. They passed it down to others who did not have their level of ability.

The panel, AS BOB SAID, didn't accept all those who wanted to be on it, but did accept any with areas of expertise other than programming. Which a couple did, as they were testers. So good testers were allowed. There are plenty of testers as good as I, but none better. I am an excellent. By their litmus test, I qualified to be on the panel. Here, there could be none WORSE THAN ME. I have no expertise to add to the mix, and would have no idea what I was looking at- and neither did those on the panel who were like me.

And a certain person terribly betrayed a trust Vas had given him. It was shameful. He excused it by saying with the copying and other stuff Vas had done, Vas had let HIM down. And that was BEFORE a panel was even formed. So much for even giving someone a small benefit of doubt. Waiting for evidence was to him a waste of time, I would suppose. And bingo! Guess who ended up on the panel!

The panel was tainted from the word "go", from the above truths. They went in with "guilty", instead of the correct method- assume nothing before we see evidence. Then they were left with no choice but to fit evidence to that premise.

And that IMO is connected to the 14 out of 34 who voted. 5 abstain- ok, 10- maybe still ok. But 20! I aint buying the ok on that, tho Bob does. The point is Bob did not get his drawers in a wad when I said that. Neither did he when I said I can't prove it- because no one would admit it- but I suspect "a few" of those 20 abstained because they were hesitant to vote guilty for some of the reasons I have stated. They should have voted innocent- but were afraid of the backlash on places like this.

Anyone with 1 eye and half a brain knows why Chris Whittington was not on the forum. He was one of the "experts" they invited. But they knew him well, and knew just what to say to invite him, but piss him off so they knew he would not come. My thinking all along was wrong! I assumed they didn't because they were afraid they might not get a unanimous verdict. And that was important to them. Wrong! I firmly believe now after listening to his theories for 3 days, they were scared shitless he could sway other members to start thinking along diff. lines. That they did not want. People who havent followed the discussion closely know that Miguel came up with the PST issue. What they don't know is that Whittington had been discussing the PST issue in private messages with me twice. He said that was the starting point- something wasn't right. And that is not the extent of his studying.

One panel member stated flatly that the sentence would not have been "for life" if Vas had and respected them. Where I come from- that is called revenge, and has no place on the panel. So you are 100% sure that member's hurt feelings could not carry over from the sentencing phase, also to the verdict phase. And how can you be sure- you do not know to who I refer.

Bob Hyatt caused the first tainting of the panel. Not on purpose. A by-product of who he is. You can believe the main ICGA members feel that "if Bob Hyatt says it- you can take it to the bank." They did not treat it as if I had given them the evidence. It was Bob, and they assumed too much. It is evident all over the place by their actions. But I don't blame them much there- it's human nature.

I am really bothered by the 14 who voted. I have asked 5 people so far who would know, and they don't even acknowledge the question I ask of "exactly what were the names of the 14 voters". Bob showed me a list of panel members, and that's it. Except I noticed 3 names on it who were like me. You could show them a map of Norway and tell them it was code.

Everything I have stated above, as you can read, are things I KNOW to be true or things that I FIRMLY BELIEVE to be true. You can tell the difference, as I point it out. You asked me earlier if I was calling panel members "liars". Not if they disagree with what I FIRMLY BELIEVE. But if they deny what I KNOW TO BE TRUE- they are not liars- they are instead damn liars of the worst kind.

Much has been made of Vas not defending himself, and staying silent. I will semi-quote Nelson Hernandez after his taped interview with Vas. I think he thought it strange also until the interview. You can go to the Rybka Forum and see his thread, or ask him for the exact wording, if he is ever stupid enough to come down here to "General". He says he found out Vas is a different breed of cat, and doesn't look at things the way most people would. It has nothing to do with how he perceives guilt and innocence- that is the same as we feel. But things that would bother or enrage us, he just let's slide. And one should not assume anything from his silence.

I really wish you would leave Ansari alone. He has done nothing to you. You have acted like a petulant child because he dare defend Vas or speak ag. Bob. Let Bob take care of his own business.

Thru all this, Bob Hyatt and I have become friends, rather than 2 people who just put up with each other. I respect him- he respects me.

Be sure you understand no matter what- I will always give Bob the same presumption of innocence I give Vas. Yes, "give" Vas. Because the panel was actually a good idea. But from the beginning by a presumption of guilt, and the way it was handled- it was just all bad. I would feel the same no matter the verdict.

If you think I am not fair, after the PST fiasco, I asked Zach if he would consider teaming with Miguel Ballicora and Chris Whittington- and ONLY THOSE 3- to restudy all the evidence, down to crossing each "t". I told him I would trust the 3 to come up with an unbiased verdict. They are more than capable. And you would w/o doubt for sure have the truth. I told him if innocent, I could live with that. If guilty- I could live with that. But mainly I would for sure have the truth in my own mind.

Here is what has bothered me all along- right or wrong. I have seen enough copiers and cloners. No one had a path anything like Vas'. If he took too much from Fruit, it just doesn't add up. You don't just take it and overnight (or too short a period of time), presto!- have a program that could play fruit 30 games and maybe not lose 1 game. I have a theory that what he took- and maybe it was too much, was like going ahead and driving on a closed road to get to a point that he could easily get there by taking the longer, but legal route, i.e. he was going to get there either way.
Assuming his guilt- which I have constantly said I can't either way say anything much- I can't read code. And I won't believe it because 1 person says it is true. Hence my proposal to Zach.. Does that sound like someone who is scared of the truth?


Nite Julien and Roger,

[Harvey Williamson]

My points made on Rybka Forum (only a few of them here) that Bob described as civil and thoughtful- whether he agreed or not:

Lets have a look at some of your civil posts:

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... order=desc

this member couldn't be trusted to carry a bucket of shit across the street.

Vas doesn't owe you jack shit.

I only saw the list first time last night, and when I looked at it, I shit in my pants.

And 1 of them- I wouldn't hire him to take a bucket of shit across the street.

you aint got shit I need or want to chew on.

Here is a civil reply from George to Bob:

at programming a winning chess engine, you aren't worth a shit.

Bob is ever so slowly getting his ass in a crack he eventually wont be able to avoid. He made some dip shit excuse

Borrowing anything from Crafty would only make Rybka the 2nd shittiest program out there.

[JuLieN]

@Roger & K.I.:
Thank you. And K.I., another reason why you (and us) feel that way when occasionally visiting the Rybka forum is that we're obviously witnessing an angry mob, something we know is always dangerous and never smart. Also, Steve is absolute right when he wrote:

they are really defending their forum ....where they gather each day ..almost like a social networking site they flail out in all directions,accusing everyone everywhere of wrongdoing and it keeps the site from vanishing away into oblivion
anyway..i imagine what goes on there now is similar to what it would be like if we had a forum for someone who has just been convicted of a crime and sent to prison
the family members,friends,neighbors..etc etc of that convict would all be saying how he didn't really do it..the judge was biased..the jurors all idiots ,,justice was not served..etc etc
Sad to see Regards
Steve

I of course do feel that Vas has been victimized and as I consider him a personal friend for many years (as I consider many on this very forum), I resent how he has been fingered out and publicly vilified and labeled as a "cheat" and "thief" without due process.

Maybe that's why those who consider themselves "neutral" in this matter feel you are "biased" and lost your objectivity? The "you people" was for the angry mob at Rybka. If you can't see how frightening they look like, try the following mental experience: imagine Rybka forum is a Crafty forum, replace Vas' name by Bob's and, as a neutral person yourself, go read this Crafty forum. What do you think you will see? As, this time, you won't be biased anymore, you'll see angry people who call people names, look extremely excited, only present the arguments they like while totally ignoring counter arguments, accuse the other side of doing precisely what they're doing... didn't that thought just crossed your mind, while reading this? And I'm on no one's side: I just read the ICGa report and found it conclusive. But I keep an open mind for a counter-argument, as in all democratic countries there's a double-degree of jurisdiction: anyone can appeal to a first trial. But what I read up to now is only hysteric nonsense. That's not how I'll get convinced of the ICGA having done an error.

Hi, this is the zealot who found a Crafty table (duplicated as midgame and endgame) identical to Fruit. You have no idea why this was done, and you should read the whole thread before discrediting other people. The reason I looked at Crafty was because Bob CHALLENGED me to find a similarity between a Fruit table and Crafty.

Hello Miguel. I'm sorry if you feel that way, as it appears to be some misunderstanding between us. Let me correct that. First, I can assure you that I've read the thread in Rybka forum. This is even what made me write what I wrote here in Talkchess. So I happen to know that your post was an answer to Bob's challenge (although I didn't read nor searched for the original thread where this challenged occurred). As a matter of fact, you're not someone I would call a "zealot" at all. I know you for Gaviota and your posts on Talkchess, and consider you as a nice and reasonable man I like to read. What I call zealots are the people on Rybka or here that have a nearly guru/adept relation with Vas (I think that, being a smart man himself, he's frightened by them, hence his silence). Those persons look blind and over-excited: I can see nothing with you that would go that way. Just be careful that your findings won't be overused by them to preach something you wouldn't endorse. Because that's the feeling I have is happening. For instance, regarding this PST, someone wrote "that's exactly what Vas did", and I doubt you would endorse this statement. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I see your post more like a "given some time and efforts, anyone can be proven guilty, even on a small scale, even you Bob". Or, put otherwise, "there's always something to be found everywhere, especially in computer chess". Right?

Mr. Ansari, as you call him, is not a liar. If you mention his "lies", then they had to come from a liar, right?

George, I called him that way because, not knowing his first name I can't use it, like I would have If I had. Where I come from, calling someone by his last name only is both rude and aggressive, so I went for "Mr", as this is considered polite.

And yes, he lied about me, putting words in my mouth that were just the opposite of what I said. I quote him, I quote myself, be my guest and see by yourself.

I am glad Roger Brown loves your prose. That doesn't surprise me a bit. You have invoked Hitler, Stalin, God, the apocalypse, Mankind, Christians in a thread with 3 or 4 sections that basically say nothing, except he doesn't agree with you. "Mr. Ansari", as you like to refer to him, is right. He even says that parts of his thread are not proven- yet. And I am quite sure God is not unhappy with his post, even tho Roger seems to be. And trust me, "Mankind", which you have invoked 4 times in 2 threads, will survive this terrible attack on him by "Mr. Ansari". I wouldn't try to argue with someone who actually KNOWS something, when all you seem to be able to do is criticize and speculate on the ramifications to mankind.

We have a saying, in France, that goes that way: "qui vole un oeuf, vole un boeuf" (who steals an egg steals a beaf). It means that the causes of major events can often be seen yet in minor events, as only the scale differs. For instance here, I noted that the human psychology's flaws Hitler and Stalin used to achieve their goal with their people could yet be seen here. For instance, angriness, the best tool to get someone give up his reasoning. So seeing people lose their mind for a chess program (a CHESS PROGRAM for God's sake!!!) can only worry any observer wondering what would happen with more serious matters. This is no coincidence if I'm not the only feeling so puzzled and upset when contemplating the Rybka forum. Yes, this forum sometimes looks a lot like a lunatic asylum. How many time did I read posts sad to the point I thought " this one's cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs"...

My post was also practical: if you want to make your point, don't make neutral people flee from you. For the moment, the only thing the Rybka forum is achieving is to worsen things and make enemies. Again, if you want to get Vas cleaned up, take all the points (ALL of them) in the ICGA report and debunk them. With calm and logics, politely. As for me, my mind is open: before reading the ICGA's report my sympathy was for Vas. Then the report convinced me he was guilty. Not because I'm an influenceable idiot, but because what I read in it was logical and well balanced. Maybe another counter-report could make me (and other "neutral" persons) change their mind again, providing it would be logical and well argumented. But one thing is certain: the current stupidity contest won't.

Also, George, you're taking a bad start to make me change my mind: how could you seriously consider making reasonable points in such a complex case like Rybka's when you're not even able to read the posts of the current thread without making mistakes. For instance you were not even able to see that Mr. Ansari made me say the opposite of what I wrote! Also, you can't tell the difference between a plural you and a singular you, hence believing I accused Mr. Ansari in particular to "spread hatred", when I didn't: I was obviously referring to the absolute nonsense we can read for since months around the Rybka case. And by the way, your posts are often contradictory. For instance you seem convinced to be able to get a better understanding of the case than me, despite you admit you can't read code (while I can). When reading this sentence, please don't jump to the conclusion that I think you can't understand the case: I'm just pointing the contradiction. A more blatant example of contradiction (in two consecutive phrases) resides in this masterpeice of febrility of yours: "I really wish you would leave Ansari alone. He has done nothing to you. You have acted like a petulant child because he dare defend Vas or speak ag. Bob. Let Bob take care of his own business." I believe you can now see it yourself. If not, I'll be happy to help. All those flows in your posts have, I believe, a single cause: I don't believe at all you are dishonest, no, not at all, but I believe (or more exactly I see that) you're passionate and this affects your judgement.

By honesty, I'll also add that, just like I first thought Vas was innocent and only started to wonder if maybe there was a case after all when Fabien published his open letter, I also feel the same way now when I see smart people like Miguel or Ed Shrödder being unhappy with the ICGA's ruling: maybe there's a case here too, but in Vas' favor this time. Everyone is entitled to a second trial, in democracies. But, again, if there is a case, don't destroy it by looking like an hysteric crowd and making enemies of everyone that would otherwise give you a friendly ear.

And you'll really need to put yourself together, because the ICGA has a VERY strong case against Rybka. As for me, the following points were enough to make me change my mind:
- Vas' refusal to present any defense (and the convenient psychological bs won't convince any judge).
- the convenient loss of sources. (Even my weak engine can be traced back to its birth: I kept all the sources).
- the Strelka case: making a bitboards-Fruit clone out of a Rybka decompiling.
- the robbo/hippo case: Vas claiming them to be Rybka when everyone can see, again, Fruit.
- the buggy (and useless for that matter) Crafty code inside Rybka 1.0's exe.
- plus, of course, the six purely technical points of the ICGA's report. Not forgetting that those six points were only the six strongest ones out of many more.

Attacking the judges is by the way not the best way to make people listen to you. If you think the judges were biased, then prove it by debunking all (ALL!) of their findings. Should be easy if they're inventions.

The panel, AS BOB SAID, didn't accept all those who wanted to be on it, but did accept any with areas of expertise other than programming. Which a couple did, as they were testers. So good testers were allowed. There are plenty of testers as good as I, but none better. I am an excellent. By their litmus test, I qualified to be on the panel. Here, there could be none WORSE THAN ME. I have no expertise to add to the mix, and would have no idea what I was looking at- and neither did those on the panel who were like me.

I don't know you, George, so I can't comment this point. But I know another expert (whose name maybe I can't tell), who amazed me several times by spotting clones in a matter of hours, both by scrutinizing their output and their exes. And he's been claiming from the beginning Rybka was a fruit clone, even when I thought that was nonsense. (C., that's for you! And yes, now I believe you, obviously )

And that IMO is connected to the 14 out of 34 who voted. 5 abstain- ok, 10- maybe still ok. But 20! I aint buying the ok on that, tho Bob does. The point is Bob did not get his drawers in a wad when I said that. Neither did he when I said I can't prove it- because no one would admit it- but I suspect "a few" of those 20 abstained because they were hesitant to vote guilty for some of the reasons I have stated. They should have voted innocent- but were afraid of the backlash on places like this.

Yes, as a jurist, I can't deny the ICGA acted sometimes a bit amateurish from the purely trial-mechanics point of view. Still, I believe they were good-willing and I concur with their findings.

Anyone with 1 eye and half a brain knows why Chris Whittington was not on the forum. He was one of the "experts" they invited. But they knew him well, and knew just what to say to invite him, but piss him off so they knew he would not come. My thinking all along was wrong! I assumed they didn't because they were afraid they might not get a unanimous verdict. And that was important to them. Wrong! I firmly believe now after listening to his theories for 3 days, they were scared shitless he could sway other members to start thinking along diff. lines. That they did not want. People who havent followed the discussion closely know that Miguel came up with the PST issue. What they don't know is that Whittington had been discussing the PST issue in private messages with me twice. He said that was the starting point- something wasn't right. And that is not the extent of his studying.

I know Chris, and respect him a lot. But I tend to flee from conspiracy theories. Again, if you want to win a counter-trial, do it on the technical ground, not by criticizing the Court. My suggestion, if you don't agree with the ICGA, is that you make your own court of appeal, with gathering a panel no one could doubt to be unbiased (which means a mix of persons who yet were in the first panel, plus others), and produce a report based on technical facts and ruled by logics, not the cuckoo-stuff you're all doing since months that is just burying Vas alive.

Bob Hyatt caused the first tainting of the panel. Not on purpose. A by-product of who he is. You can believe the main ICGA members feel that "if Bob Hyatt says it- you can take it to the bank." They did not treat it as if I had given them the evidence. It was Bob, and they assumed too much. It is evident all over the place by their actions. But I don't blame them much there- it's human nature.

For reading him for years, I believe Bob is a very honest person, totally unable of malignity. I just can't picture him targeting someone for personal reasons. Why? because Bob just never has any personal reasons. I saw him insulted here and in other places countless times and not even minding it, to the point of being genuinely surprised when people came back to their mind and apologized. So if Bob acts like he does you can be sure it's because he's sure something wrong has been done. If you're sure Vas is clean, then stop pilling on Bob like people are doing on the Rybka forum and try to prove him wrong instead.

Here is what has bothered me all along- right or wrong. I have seen enough copiers and cloners. No one had a path anything like Vas'. If he took too much from Fruit, it just doesn't add up. You don't just take it and overnight (or too short a period of time), presto!- have a program that could play fruit 30 games and maybe not lose 1 game. I have a theory that what he took- and maybe it was too much, was like going ahead and driving on a closed road to get to a point that he could easily get there by taking the longer, but legal route, i.e. he was going to get there either way.

Maybe you'll remember Toga, a bitboards version of Fruit, that ended up being stronger than Rybka 1.0? Rybka is precisely being accused to be a Fruit on bitboards.

To sum up my post:
- I believe the ICGA's findings are correct.
- I have an open mind and it's up to a counter-trial to make me (and everyone else) change my mind. And please, do it: put on a new panel nobody can contest, and put an end to this civil war in our community.
- This won't be achieved by acting like an angry cuckoo nest.
- I'm no one's enemy, so please, people, stop acting aggressively and go back to more civil manners.

[Steve B]

Steve is absolute right when he wrote:

they are really defending their forum ....where they gather each day ..almost like a social networking site they flail out in all directions,accusing everyone everywhere of wrongdoing and it keeps the site from vanishing away into oblivion
anyway..i imagine what goes on there now is similar to what it would be like if we had a forum for someone who has just been convicted of a crime and sent to prison
the family members,friends,neighbors..etc etc of that convict would all be saying how he didn't really do it..the judge was biased..the jurors all idiots ,,justice was not served..etc etc
Sad to see Regards
Steve

I of course do feel that Vas has been victimized and as I consider him a personal friend for many years (as I consider many on this very forum), I resent how he has been fingered out and publicly vilified and labeled as a "cheat" and "thief" without due process.

Maybe that's why those who consider themselves "neutral" in this matter feel you are "biased" and lost your objectivity? The "you people" was for the angry mob at Rybka.

Exactly again
in fact i chuckled when i read Ansaris's reply which illustrated my point to the T
Coming to the defense of a beleaguered friend is honorable but when doing so it is not such a good idea to offend everyone else in the room .let alone it has no place in a discussion of the facts

perhaps Friends and other hanger's-on could have been given a voice when it came to the punishment meted out by the ICGA
We have that process here in the states
the Sentencing phase of a trial
after someone is convicted of a crime the family members ,friends etc etc can give testimony to the sentencing judge on how nice a person the criminal defendant was..good father..great basketball player in his youth..etc..etc..in an effort to sway the judge to go lightly on the person found guilty

anyway..it seems some in the Mainstream Chess Establishment do care and respect the ICGA process and recognize its import..i notice for the second month in a row the most widely read monthly chess publication in the world..the United States Chess Federations .."Chess Life"...has run NO adds for Rybkian software..while running plenty of adds for other PC chess related products
thats two consecutive months once the findings of the ICGA panel were released..while before the findings there were adds almost every month..sometimes full page ..inside front and back cover ads


The Party's Over Regards
Steve

[Uri Blass]

Julien Marcel,
I do not think that Vas is totally innocent but I do not agree with part of your points:
1)Strelka is not a bitboard clone of fruit and the 2 sources have only a little in common.

Maybe they have enough in common to consider Strelka to be fruit's derivative but most of strelka's code is not in fruit and most of fruit's code is not in strelka.

2)Toga is not a bitboard program so it is not a bitboard version of fruit.
Toga is clearly based on fruit not at the level of strelka and the programmers only needed to change a little part of fruit to create toga.

3)I believe that ideas should not be protected and if somebody understand fruit and use the ideas on it to generate his evaluation then it is clearly ok.

mathematical evaluation function is part of the idea and not allowing people to use a similiar evaluation function simply block progress in computer chess.

I believe that the evaluation of many programs are based on learning from fruit and if you use the standards that Bob try to use then you are going to find many people quilty.

I think that these standards are wrong and I believe that you could find many programs quilty because they tried to have something similiar to other programs.

I remember that Naum has a similiar move choice to Rybka2.3.2 and I remember that the programmer(Alex Naumov) admitted that it is not random inspite of the fact that he did not copy code from rybka.

I remember reading that
the way that Alex Naumov worked is simply using the exe file of rybka to analyze chess positions and trying to optimize his parameters(in his own code) to produce similiar analysis.

It is possible to do it simply by having a function to calculate similiarity in analysis of test suites and accept a change in evaluation in some contants if it makes the similiarity higher.

I think that this test is clearly logical because there is no reason to force people to reinvent the wheel and testing based on games if a change is productive or counter productive could take more time.

I think that Alex Naumov is innocent but based on Bob's standards he may be also quilty.

[geots]

My points made on Rybka Forum (only a few of them here) that Bob described as civil and thoughtful- whether he agreed or not:

Lets have a look at some of your civil posts:

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... order=desc

this member couldn't be trusted to carry a bucket of shit across the street.

Vas doesn't owe you jack shit.

I only saw the list first time last night, and when I looked at it, I shit in my pants.

And 1 of them- I wouldn't hire him to take a bucket of shit across the street.

you aint got shit I need or want to chew on.

Here is a civil reply from George to Bob:

at programming a winning chess engine, you aren't worth a shit.

Bob is ever so slowly getting his ass in a crack he eventually wont be able to avoid. He made some dip shit excuse

Borrowing anything from Crafty would only make Rybka the 2nd shittiest program out there.

First, you can throw all the threads to Bob Hyatt out that were not last week. He and I have that covered. He knows those were just to aggravate him- nothing more and nothing less. He will be quite happy to verify that. That's old news.

Any with a date of this past week was to what I was speaking of. If you subtract out the ones to Bob, I am very proud of the rest. They were to people who deserved worse. Like you.

I would NEVER come down here and tell ANYONE that I would be nice to you. Not in this lifetime.

I don't see why you are still pissed at me. The Dr. asked me what you did for a living, and all I told him was you followed Mark around wagging your tail.

Gotta go. I counted 3, no 4 threads you missed. Knock yourself out.

[JuLieN]

Hello Uri,

thanks for the precisions and corrections: points taken.

Regarding the protection of ideas, I don't think that's the point here. Nobody asks for that (or all our engines would be guilty as well, just by using the alpha-beta algorithm, for a start...).

If Fruit's ideas in Rybka were scrutinized it was, I believe, more to point out that the abnormally large amount of them present in Rybka was just another proof of code plagiarism. Which is a different idea than simple inspiration.

I think that what the panel tried to prove was that Vas took Fruit's eval.c and modified it, instead of what engines authors usually do: writing their own eval.c, later adding other engines' ideas if they find them interesting. The first case is plagiarism, the second one is inspiration.

Another proof of this fact was the finding of Crafty vestigial buggy code. A code only "useful" to older versions of Crafty and totally pointless in Rybka.