Pawn endinge challenge: human vs engines.

[pepechuy]

Hi.

Now, the game against Lc0, taking the e7 pawn.
A win for me.

While the game was not long, I felt that Lc0 put me a lot of obstacles to create a passed pawn.
Instead of 10... Kf5, I think it is better 10... h5. I am not sure how I would have replied in that case.

[pgn]
[Event "banksia game"]
[Site "*"]
[Date "2022.12.25"]
[Round "*"]
[White "hm::Garcia Ruvalcaba, Jose de Jesus"]
[Black "Lc0 v0.27.0"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3500"]
[Time "18:54:00"]
[TimeControl "600+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/pppp1ppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "mate"]

1. e4 Ke7 {+4.57/4 97537 3450} 2. Ke2 Ke6 {+4.88/4 25870 2420} 3. Ke3 d5
{+5.96/4 35935 2928} 4. d4 c6 {+5.80/5 23003 2398} 5. Kd3 b5 {+5.01/5 21052
1529} 6. c3 f5 {+5.15/5 19141 1524} 7. exf5+ Kxf5 {+3.10/6 6208 865} 8. Ke3 Kg4
{+3.64/5 25108 2844} 9. f3+ Kg5 {+3.82/5 16836 1566} 10. g3 Kf5 {+4.05/5 10691
1810} 11. h3 g5 {+4.31/5 22405 2052} 12. g4+ Kg6 {+6.85/6 18859 2462} 13. f4 h6
{+5.92/5 14623 1532} 14. Kf3 Kf6 {+5.48/5 14124 2228} 15. fxg5+ hxg5 {+5.71/6
9828 1397} 16. Kg3 Kg6 {+6.92/7 56072 11047} 17. h4 Kh6 {+8.59/7 8483 3995} 18.
hxg5+ Kxg5 {+19.81/6 8370 1699} 19. b4 a6 {+10.82/7 17754 2150} 20. a3 Kg6
{+9.69/8 11174 2701} 21. Kf4 Kf6 {+11.73/7 9586 2494} 22. g5+ Kg6 {+12.30/8
17267 4631} 23. Kg4 Kg7 {+13.01/8 12965 4605} 24. Kf5 Kf7 {+14.30/7 14640 4904}
25. g6+ Kg7 {+12.43/9 17359 6960} 26. Kg5 Kg8 {+13.54/8 11922 3993} 27. Kf6 Kf8
{+19.36/9 8378 2996} 28. g7+ Ke8 {+72.35/1 32 3025} 29. Ke6 Kd8 {+53.72/1 23
448} 30. Kd6 Kc8 {+54.89/1 10 223} 31. g8=Q+ Kb7 {M-3/1 10 259} 32. Kd7 a5
{+60.10/6 36672 3924} 33. Qc8+ Kb6 {M-3/1 23 501} 34. Qxc6+ Ka7 {+112.23/1 21
113} 35. Kc7 axb4 {M-1/1 24 120} 36. Qb7# 1-0
[/pgn]

The next game is against Stockfish, taking the f7 pawn.

And before I forget... ¡Merry Christmas!

Greetings.

[Chessqueen]

Hi.

Now, the game against Lc0, taking the e7 pawn.
A win for me.

While the game was not long, I felt that Lc0 put me a lot of obstacles to create a passed pawn.
Instead of 10... Kf5, I think it is better 10... h5. I am not sure how I would have replied in that case.

[pgn]
[Event "banksia game"]
[Site "*"]
[Date "2022.12.25"]
[Round "*"]
[White "hm::Garcia Ruvalcaba, Jose de Jesus"]
[Black "Lc0 v0.27.0"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3500"]
[Time "18:54:00"]
[TimeControl "600+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/pppp1ppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "mate"]

1. e4 Ke7 {+4.57/4 97537 3450} 2. Ke2 Ke6 {+4.88/4 25870 2420} 3. Ke3 d5
{+5.96/4 35935 2928} 4. d4 c6 {+5.80/5 23003 2398} 5. Kd3 b5 {+5.01/5 21052
1529} 6. c3 f5 {+5.15/5 19141 1524} 7. exf5+ Kxf5 {+3.10/6 6208 865} 8. Ke3 Kg4
{+3.64/5 25108 2844} 9. f3+ Kg5 {+3.82/5 16836 1566} 10. g3 Kf5 {+4.05/5 10691
1810} 11. h3 g5 {+4.31/5 22405 2052} 12. g4+ Kg6 {+6.85/6 18859 2462} 13. f4 h6
{+5.92/5 14623 1532} 14. Kf3 Kf6 {+5.48/5 14124 2228} 15. fxg5+ hxg5 {+5.71/6
9828 1397} 16. Kg3 Kg6 {+6.92/7 56072 11047} 17. h4 Kh6 {+8.59/7 8483 3995} 18.
hxg5+ Kxg5 {+19.81/6 8370 1699} 19. b4 a6 {+10.82/7 17754 2150} 20. a3 Kg6
{+9.69/8 11174 2701} 21. Kf4 Kf6 {+11.73/7 9586 2494} 22. g5+ Kg6 {+12.30/8
17267 4631} 23. Kg4 Kg7 {+13.01/8 12965 4605} 24. Kf5 Kf7 {+14.30/7 14640 4904}
25. g6+ Kg7 {+12.43/9 17359 6960} 26. Kg5 Kg8 {+13.54/8 11922 3993} 27. Kf6 Kf8
{+19.36/9 8378 2996} 28. g7+ Ke8 {+72.35/1 32 3025} 29. Ke6 Kd8 {+53.72/1 23
448} 30. Kd6 Kc8 {+54.89/1 10 223} 31. g8=Q+ Kb7 {M-3/1 10 259} 32. Kd7 a5
{+60.10/6 36672 3924} 33. Qc8+ Kb6 {M-3/1 23 501} 34. Qxc6+ Ka7 {+112.23/1 21
113} 35. Kc7 axb4 {M-1/1 24 120} 36. Qb7# 1-0
[/pgn]

The next game is against Stockfish, taking the f7 pawn.

And before I forget... ¡Merry Christmas!

Greetings.

The f7 and the f3 pawn is like taking two pawn odds, but instead play as Black taking the f3 pawn against any top 4 engines, at least you are giving the engine the first move

[Chessqueen]

Hi.

Now, the game against Lc0, taking the e7 pawn.
A win for me.

While the game was not long, I felt that Lc0 put me a lot of obstacles to create a passed pawn.
Instead of 10... Kf5, I think it is better 10... h5. I am not sure how I would have replied in that case.



The next game is against Stockfish, taking the f7 pawn.

And before I forget... ¡Merry Christmas!

Greetings.

The f7 and the f3 pawn is like taking two pawns odds, but without the engine having any other pieces just pawns it should be easy to win, if you include both queens it would be harder to beat any top 6 engines, but instead play as Black taking the f3 pawn against any top 6 engines, at least you are giving the engine the first move

[pgn]
[Date "2022.12.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish-windows-2022-x86-64-avx2"]
[Black "ChessQueen"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[Time "21:33:48"]
[WhiteElo "3650"]
[TimeControl "600+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP1PP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "43"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. Kf2 d5 2. d3 Kd7 3. Kg3 e5 4. e3 a5 5. Kg4 Ke6 6. d4 b6 7. c3 a4 8. Kg5
c5 9. b4 h6+ 10. Kg4 f5+ 11. Kf3 g5 12. dxc5 bxc5 13. Ke2 cxb4 14. Kd2 b3
15. a3 f4 16. g3 fxe3+ 17. Ke2 b2 18. Kxe3 b1=Q 19. h4 Qe1+ 20. Kf3 Qd2 21.
h5 e4+ 22. Kg4 {White resigns} *[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

This is the ideal position to play against any of the top 6 engines, you playing Black


[pgn][Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.12.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish-windows-2022-x86-64-avx2"]
[Black "Garcia Ruvalcaba"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[Time "22:07:30"]
[WhiteElo "3650"]
[TimeControl "600+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "3qk3/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP1PP/3QK3 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "1"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. e3 {(e2-e3 e7-e6 Qd1-g4 Qd8-f6 c2-c3 Qf6-e5 a2-a4 h7-h5 Qg4-f3 c7-c6
g2-g3 Ke8-e7 Ke1-d1 Qe5-g5 h2-h3 b7-b6 Kd1-c2 h5-h4 g3xh4 Qg5xh4 e3-e4
g7-g5 b2-b3 Qh4-f4 Qf3xf4 g5xf4 d2-d4 Ke7-f6 Kc2-d3 Kf6-g5 Kd3-e2 f7-f6
Ke2-f2 e6-e5 Kf2-g2) -1.98/35 50} *[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

Or you could either play as Black with this position

[pgn]
[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.12.25"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish-windows-2022-x86-64-avx2"]
[Black "Garcia Ruvalcaba"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[Time "22:29:04"]
[WhiteElo "3650"]
[TimeControl "600+5"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "3qk3/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP1PP/R3K2R w KQ - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "1"]


1. O-O-O {(O-O-O c7-c5 e2-e4 Qd8-b6 Rh1-e1 f7-f6 g2-g3 Qb6-e6 Kc1-b1 Qe6-e5
d2-d3 b7-b5 c2-c3 Qe5-h5 Rd1-d2 a7-a5 d3-d4 c5xd4 c3xd4 Qh5-f3 a2-a3 Ke8-f7
d4-d5 h7-h5 Kb1-a2 d7-d6 Re1-e2 Qf3-f1 Rd2-c2 Qf1-d1 Rc2-d2 Qd1-c1 Rd2-d4
Qc1-h1 Rd4-d2 Qh1-f3 Re2-e1 g7-g5 Rd2-e2) -1.72/39 36} *[/pgn]

[pepechuy]

The f7 and the f3 pawn is like taking two pawn odds, but instead play as Black taking the f3 pawn against any top 4 engines, at least you are giving the engine the first move

Hi.

If you refer to a "pure" pawn ending challenge, I do not see why the f7 or f2 pawn is twice as valuable.

With all the pieces, yes; because in the initial position a missing f-pawn means weakness for the king.

Greetings.

[pepechuy]

Hi.

Now, the game against Stockfish, taking the f7 pawn.
A win for me.

First, I will mention a little adventure I had after the game. I did not save it properly, and the game tab was closed in BanksiaGUI.
I want to thank the author Nguyen Hong Pham for telling me how to recover the game.

I found the game itself quite interesting, and actually difficult. I was unable to create a passed pawn on the kingside, and also no pawns had been exchanged. But I had a very healthy majority, and headed with my king to the queenside.
When the center was already closed, Stockfish made a few instantaneous moves. I got scared, because I thought that it had found a forced draw. And also because I myself had not seen how to crack open a way for my king.
Fortunately I found the maneuver with 14. c3 and 15. b3. I do not know if this is the only way to win (essentially I mean, waiting moves with the king do not count as "different" to me); but at this point White has to be extremely careful to avoid closing the queenside. One mistake, and there is no open road.
But after that, it is an straightforward win.
Perhaps an stronger player can win without being forced to find difficult maneuvers: just by getting an overall better position, where there are several (and simple) ways to win.

[pgn]
[Event "banksia game"]
[Site "*"]
[Date "2022.12.26"]
[Round "*"]
[White "hm::Garcia Ruvalcaba, Jose de Jesus"]
[Black "Stockfish 15"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Time "20:12:22"]
[TimeControl "600+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/ppppp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "mate"]

1. f4 e6 {+3.86/23 38267 22656828} 2. Kf2 Ke7 {+4.10/25 87386 55883062} 3. e4 d6
{+4.27/27 85671 48362648} 4. g4 c6 {+4.33/26 101069 57230862} 5. Kg3 d5
{+4.32/24 39249 24547225} 6. d3 Kd6 {+5.07/26 104611 63135815} 7. Kf3 d4
{+5.57/25 10 67084756} 8. Kg3 e5 {+5.21/24 63287 39683721} 9. f5 Ke7 {+7.53/25
107166 73623094} 10. g5 a5 {+7.87/26 50605 35226290} 11. Kf3 a4 {+7.29/20 7734
5814641} 12. Ke2 b6 {+7.16/20 11706 8970345} 13. Kd2 b5 {+7.44/19 18568
13338579} 14. c3 Kd6 {+7.55/19 11714 9017630} 15. b3 dxc3+ {+8.36/20 10341
7255238} 16. Kxc3 a3 {+8.93/18 10 2883718} 17. Kb4 g6 {+10.48/22 10 12567370}
18. f6 Ke6 {+13.07/23 12749 17937287} 19. Kxa3 h5 {+15.76/24 12999 16718326} 20.
Kb4 Kd7 {M-10/39 13910 12333124} 21. Kc5 b4 {M-11/38 3346 3247261} 22. Kxb4 Kd6
{M-10/38 2967 3823415} 23. a4 h4 {M-9/39 10 5253390} 24. a5 c5+ {M-7/106 1943
11594002} 25. Kb5 c4 {M-7/123 9664 23661297} 26. dxc4 Kd7 {M-6/245 2155 6941619}
27. a6 h3 {M-5/245 10 1210757} 28. a7 Kd8 {M-4/245 10 218911} 29. a8=Q+ Kc7
{M-3/245 10 17944} 30. f7 Kd7 {M-2/245 10 8077} 31. f8=Q Kc7 {M-1/245 10 741}
32. Qe7# 1-0
[/pgn]

The next game is against Berserk, taking the g7 pawn.
Greetings.

[Chessqueen]

The f7 and the f3 pawn is like taking two pawn odds, but instead play as Black taking the f3 pawn against any top 4 engines, at least you are giving the engine the first move

Hi.

If you refer to a "pure" pawn ending challenge, I do not see why the f7 or f2 pawn is twice as valuable.

With all the pieces, yes; because in the initial position a missing f-pawn means weakness for the king.

Greetings.

It is not twice as valuable, but there is a big difference weather you play the White side with the f7 pawn odds missing for the engine or you let the engine play the White side with the f2 pawn missing, the difference is only +2.75 if you play the Black side versus +2.84 for you if you play with the White side . At least you are giving the engine the first move, that is what I meant. Play your next game as Black and see if you can get at least a draw ?

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.12.27"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish-windows-2022-x86-64-avx2"]
[Black "Garcia Ruvalcaba, Jose de Jesus"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[Time "07:21:12"]
[WhiteElo "3650"]
[TimeControl "900+0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP1PP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "1"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. Kf2 {(Ke1-f2 f7-f5 b2-b4 Ke8-f7 Kf2-g3 Kf7-f6 e2-e3 e7-e5 d2-d3 g7-g6
Kg3-f2 Kf6-e6 Kf2-f3 h7-h6 Kf3-g3 d7-d5 c2-c3 g6-g5 d3-d4 h6-h5 Kg3-f3
e5-e4+ Kf3-g3 Ke6-f6 Kg3-f2) -2.76/30 66} *[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

The f7 and the f3 pawn is like taking two pawn odds, but instead play as Black taking the f3 pawn against any top 4 engines, at least you are giving the engine the first move

Hi.

If you refer to a "pure" pawn ending challenge, I do not see why the f7 or f2 pawn is twice as valuable.

With all the pieces, yes; because in the initial position a missing f-pawn means weakness for the king.

Greetings.

It is not twice as valuable, but there is a big difference weather you play the White side with the f7 pawn odds missing for the engine or you let the engine play the White side with the f2 pawn missing, the difference is only +2.75 if you play the Black side versus +2.84 for you if you play with the White side . At least you are giving the engine the first move, that is what I meant. Play your next game as Black and see if you can get at least a draw ?

Note: I decided to play a 2nd game as Black, but it was too easy to beat Stockfish without the f2 pawn, even with Stockfish having the 1st move, that is the reason why you should add both Queens to make it more challenging, and by adding both Queens there should not be too many tactics either

[pgn][Event "Pawn endings"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.12.27"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish-windows-2022-x86-64-avx2"]
[Black "ChessQueen"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[Time "11:27:12"]
[WhiteElo "3650"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP1PP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]


1. Kf2 f5 2. b4 Kf7 3. Kg3 Kf6 4. Kf3 e5 5. Kg3 d5 6. c3 g5 7. Kf2 b5 8.
Ke3 h5 9. Kd3 f4 10. Kc2 g4 11. Kd1 Kf5 12. a3 Ke4 13. Ke1 d4 14. c4 bxc4
15. b5 g3 16. h3 c3 17. dxc3 dxc3 18. Kd1 Kd4 19. Kc2 e4 20. Kb1 f3 21.
exf3 exf3 22. a4 fxg2 23. Kc2 g1=Q 24. a5 g2 25. h4 {White resigns} *[/pgn]

[pepechuy]

It is not twice as valuable, but there is a big difference weather you play the White side with the f7 pawn odds missing for the engine or you let the engine play the White side with the f2 pawn missing, the difference is only +2.75 if you play the Black side versus +2.84 for you if you play with the White side . At least you are giving the engine the first move, that is what I meant. Play your next game as Black and see if you can get at least a draw ?

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.12.27"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish-windows-2022-x86-64-avx2"]
[Black "Garcia Ruvalcaba, Jose de Jesus"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[Time "07:21:12"]
[WhiteElo "3650"]
[TimeControl "900+0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPP1PP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "1"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. Kf2 {(Ke1-f2 f7-f5 b2-b4 Ke8-f7 Kf2-g3 Kf7-f6 e2-e3 e7-e5 d2-d3 g7-g6
Kg3-f2 Kf6-e6 Kf2-f3 h7-h6 Kf3-g3 d7-d5 c2-c3 g6-g5 d3-d4 h6-h5 Kg3-f3
e5-e4+ Kf3-g3 Ke6-f6 Kg3-f2) -2.76/30 66} *[/pgn]

Hi.

About this challenge I am playing, but with reversed colours (white 7 pawns, black 8 pawns, human plays black); I do not think there is any essential difference. The player with the missing pawn can not do much with an extra tempo.

About adding queens. That would be a Queen ending challenge, something very different. While I have nothing against it, there are many other endgame challenges that I would be more interested in playing first (like a rook ending challenge, or a bishop vs knight ending challenge).

And there are also big material odds challenges (with almost all the pieces on the board), and...

Greetings.