Can white win?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderator: Ras

peter
Posts: 3472
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Can white win?

Post by peter »

Hobacle wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 3:02 pm Well, the following pgn file is easier to understand:
[pgn][Result "1-0"]
[FEN "N5bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1PK/8 w - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

1. Kg1 Kd3 2. Nb6 Ke2 3. Nd5 Ke1 4. Nc7 Ke2 5. Nb5 Ke1 6. Nd4 Kd1 7. Kf1 Kd2 8.
Nb5 Kd1 9. Nd6 Kd2 10. Kf2 Kd3 11. Ne4 Kc2 12. Ke2 Kc1 13. Nc3 Kc2 14. Nb5 Kb3
15. Kd3 Kb2 16. Kd2 Kb3 17. Nd6 Kb4 18. Kd3 Ka3 19. Kc3 Ka2 20. Nc4 Ka1 21. Kd2
Kb1 22. Kd1 Ka1 23. Kc1 Ka2 24. Kc2 Ka1 25. Na5 Ka2 26. Nb3 (26. Nc6 $2 26...
Ka3 27. Kc3 Ka4 28. Ne7 Kb5 29. Kd4 Kb4 30. Nxg8 Kb3 31. Kd3 Kb2 32. Ne7 Kc1
33. Ke2 Kc2 34. Nd5 Kb3 35. Kd2 Kc4 36. Nc3 Kb4 37. Nd1 Kc4 38. Nb2+ Kd4 39.
Nd3 Kc4 40. Nc1 Kd4 41. Nb3+ Kc4 42. Kc2 Kb4 43. Nd2 Ka4 44. Kc3 Ka3 45. Nb3
Ka2 46. Kc2 Ka3 47. Nc1 Ka4 48. Na2 Ka3 49. Nc3 Kb4 50. Nb1 Kc4 51. Na3+ Kb4
52. Kb2 Ka4 53. Nc2 Kb5 54. Kb3 Kc5 55. Kc3 Kb5 56. Kd4 Ka5 57. Kc5 Ka4 58. Kc4
Ka5 59. Nd4 Ka6 60. Nb5 Kb6 61. Nc3 Kc6 62. Nd5 Kd6 63. Nb4 Ke5 64. Kd3 Kd6 65.
Kd4 Kc7 66. Kc5 Kb7 67. Nd5 Ka7 68. Nb6 Kb7 69. Nc4 Kc7 70. Nd6 Kd7 71. Nb5 Kc8
72. Kb6 Kb8 73. Nd6 Ka8 74. Ne4 Kb8 75. Kc6 Kc8 76. Kd6 Kd8 77. Nc5 Ke8 78. Nb7
Kf8 79. Kd7 Kg8 80. Nd6 $11) 26... Ka3 27. Nc1 Ka4 28. Na2 Ka3 29. Nc3 Kb4 30.
Nb1 Kc4 31. Na3+ Kb4 32. Kb2 Ka4 33. Nc2 Kb5 34. Kb3 Kc5 35. Kc3 Kb5 36. Kd4
Ka5 37. Kc5 Ka4 38. Kc4 Ka5 39. Nd4 Ka4 40. Nb5 Ka5 41. Nc3 Kb6 42. Kd5 Ka6
(42... Kb7 43. Kc5 Kc7 44. Nd5+ Kd7 45. Nb4 Kc8 46. Nc6 Kd7 47. Kd5 Kc7 48. Ne7
Kb6 49. Kc4 (49. Nxg8 $2 49... Kb5 $11) 49... Ka5 50. Nxg8 $18) 43. Kc6 Ka5 44.
Kc5 Ka6 45. Nd5 Ka5 46. Ne7 Ka4 47. Kc4 Ka3 48. Kc3 Ka2 49. Nxg8 Kb1 50. Kd2
Kb2 51. Ne7 Kb3 52. Nd5 Kc4 53. Nc3 Kb4 54. Nd1 Kc4 55. Nb2+ Kd4 56. Nd3 Kc4
57. Nc1 Kd4 58. Nb3+ Kc4 59. Kc2 Kb4 60. Nd2 Ka4 61. Kc3 Ka3 62. Nb3 Ka2 63.
Kc2 Ka3 64. Nc1 Ka4 65. Na2 Ka3 66. Nc3 Kb4 67. Nb1 Kc4 68. Na3+ Kb4 69. Kb2
Ka4 70. Nc2 Kb5 71. Kb3 Kc5 72. Kc3 Kb5 73. Kd4 Ka5 74. Kc5 Ka4 75. Kc4 Ka5 76.
Nd4 Ka6 77. Nb5 Kb6 78. Nc3 Kc6 79. Nd5 Kd6 80. Nb4 Ke5 81. Kd3 Kd6 82. Kd4 Kc7
83. Kc5 Kb7 84. Nd5 Ka7 85. Nb6 Kb7 86. Nc4 Kc7 87. Nd6 Kd7 88. Nb5 Kc8 89. Kb6
Kb8 90. Nd6 Ka8 91. Ne4 Kb8 92. Kc6 Ka7 (92... Kc8 93. Kd6 Kd8 94. Nc5 Kc8
(94... Ke8 95. Nb7 Kf8 96. Kd7 Kg8 97. Nd6 Kf8 98. Nc8 Kg8 99. h4 Kf8 100. h5
Kg8 101. Nb6 Kf8 102. Kd8 Kg8 103. g3 Kf8 104. Nd7+ Kg8 105. Ke8 fxg3 106. Nb8
g2 107. Nc6 g1=Q 108. Ne7#) 95. Ke7 Kc7 96. Kf8 Kd6 97. Ne4+ Kd5 98. Kg8 Kd4
99. Kxh7 $18) 93. Kd7 Kb6 94. Ke7 Kb5 95. Kf8 Kc4 96. Kg8 Kd3 97. Kxh7 $18
97... Ke2 98. Kxh8 Kf1 99. Nd6 Kxg2 100. Nxf7 Kxf3 101. fxg6 Kg3 102. Nxh6 f3
103. Kxg7 f2 104. Kh8 f1=Q 105. g7 Qxh3 106. Kh7 Kf4 107. g8=Q Qd3+ 108. Kh8
Qc3 109. Qf7 Kg3 110. Kh7 Qe5 111. Qc4 Kh4 112. Nf5+ Kh3 113. Kg6 Qe8+ 114.
Kxf6 Qd8+ 115. Kg6 Qe8+ 116. Kxg5 Qd8+ 117. Kg6 Qe8+ 118. Kh7 Qe5 119. Nh6 Qe7+
120. Kg6 Qe8+ 121. Nf7 Qg8+ 122. Kh5 Qh7+ 123. Nh6 Qe7 124. Qf1+ Kh2 125. g5
Qe8+ 126. g6 Qe5+ 127. Qf5 Qh8 128. g7 Qe8+ 129. Kg5 Qd8+ 130. Qf6 Qa5+ 131.
Kg6 Qd5 132. g8=Q Qg2+ 133. Kh5 Qf3+ 134. Kg5 Qe3+ 135. Qf4+ Qg3+ 136. Kf5
Qxf4+ 137. Kxf4 Kh1 138. Kf3 Kh2 139. Qg2# 1-0
[/pgn]
How about this?

[pgn]
[Event "Chest"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2023.05.28"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Hobacle, Knight"]
[Black "Only, Second"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "N5bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1PK/8 w - -"]

1. Kg1 Kd3 2. Nb6 Kd4 3. Kf1 Kc5 4. Na4+ Kc4 5. Nb2+ Kc5
6. Ke2 Kc6 7. Nd1 Kb7 8. Kd3 Kc6 9. Kc4 Kd6 10. Nc3 Kc6
11. Nd5 Kd6 12. Nb4 Ke5 13. Kc3 Kd6 14. Kd4 Kc7 15. Kc5 Kb7
16. Nd5 Ka6 17. Kb4 Ka7 18. Kb5 Kb7 19. Nc3 Kc7 20. Ne4 Kb7
21. Nd6+ Kc7 22. Kc5 Kd7 23. Nb5 Kc8 24. Kb6 Kd8 25. Kc6
Kc8 26. Nc7 Kd8 27. Na6 Kc8 28. Kb6 Kd8 29. Kb5 Kd7 30. Kc5
Kd8 31. Kd6 Kc8 32. Kc6 Kd8 33. Nb8 Kc8 34. Nd7 Kd8 35. Nb6
Ke8 36. Kc7 Ke7 37. Nc8+ Kf8 38. Kc6 Ke8 39. Kd6 Kf8
40. Ne7 Ke8 41. Nxg8 Kf8 42. Ne7 Ke8 43. Nc6 Kf8 44. Kd7
Kg8 45. Nb8 Kf8 46. Kd8 Kg8 47. g3 Kf8 48. Nd7+ Kg8 49. Ke8
fxg3 50. Nb8 g2 51. Nc6 g1=Q 52. Ne7# 1-0
[/pgn]

From 9th move onwards it's from Chest,

FEN: 6bn/5ppr/3k1prb/5Pp1/2K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/3N4 w - - (7+11)
Stellungs-Analyse: C0/R0/K6/P1/X5 W:5/13
Suche nach 1. Spezial-Matt [C2/R0/K0/P2/X5] in 60 ... (Hash=2044MB)
43.05 0:13 +M43 10.Sc3 2142
Suche abgeschlossen ... (Zeit=13.91s)
Matt in 43 gefunden ! (1. Lösung in 00:13)
43/43 0:13 +M43 10.Sc3 Kc6 11.Sd5 Kd6 12.Sb4 Ke5 13.Kc3 Kd6 14.Kd4 Kc7 15.Kc5 Kb7 16.Sd5 Ka6 17.Kb4 Ka7 18.Kb5 Kb7 19.Sc3 Kc7 20.Se4 Kb7 21.Sd6+ Kc7 22.Kc5 Kd7 23.Sb5 2147
Bester Zug: Sd1-c3 Zeit: 0:31.703 min K/s: 2.147.816 Knoten: 29.882.571

Pity further Backward isn't provable (easily with those parameters).
So first moves still could well be not the best, yet maybe that's not easy to prove as for reaching 50 moves boundary with taking the Bishop at g8 just some later than here, regards
Last edited by peter on Mon May 29, 2023 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Peter.
Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Can white win?

Post by Hobacle »

peter wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:41 pm How about this?

[pgn]
[Event "Chest"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2023.05.28"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Hobacle, Knight"]
[Black "Only, Second"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "N5bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1PK/8 w - -"]

1. Kg1 Kd3 2. Nb6 Kd4 3. Kf1 Kc5 4. Na4+ Kc4 5. Nb2+ Kc5
6. Ke2 Kc6 7. Nd1 Kb7 8. Kd3 Kc6 9. Kc4 Kd6 10. Nc3 Kc6
11. Nd5 Kd6 12. Nb4 Ke5 13. Kc3 Kd6 14. Kd4 Kc7 15. Kc5 Kb7
16. Nd5 Ka6 17. Kb4 Ka7 18. Kb5 Kb7 19. Nc3 Kc7 20. Ne4 Kb7
21. Nd6+ Kc7 22. Kc5 Kd7 23. Nb5 Kc8 24. Kb6 Kd8 25. Kc6
Kc8 26. Nc7 Kd8 27. Na6 Kc8 28. Kb6 Kd8 29. Kb5 Kd7 30. Kc5
Kd8 31. Kd6 Kc8 32. Kc6 Kd8 33. Nb8 Kc8 34. Nd7 Kd8 35. Nb6
Ke8 36. Kc7 Ke7 37. Nc8+ Kf8 38. Kc6 Ke8 39. Kd6 Kf8
40. Ne7 Ke8 41. Nxg8 Kf8 42. Ne7 Ke8 43. Nc6 Kf8 44. Kd7
Kg8 45. Nb8 Kf8 46. Kd8 Kg8 47. g3 Kf8 48. Nd7+ Kg8 49. Ke8
fxg3 50. Nb8 g2 51. Nc6 g1=Q 52. Ne7# 1-0
[/pgn]

Till 9th move it's from Chest,

FEN: 6bn/5ppr/3k1prb/5Pp1/2K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/3N4 w - - (7+11)
Stellungs-Analyse: C0/R0/K6/P1/X5 W:5/13
Suche nach 1. Spezial-Matt [C2/R0/K0/P2/X5] in 60 ... (Hash=2044MB)
43.05 0:13 +M43 10.Sc3 2142
Suche abgeschlossen ... (Zeit=13.91s)
Matt in 43 gefunden ! (1. Lösung in 00:13)
43/43 0:13 +M43 10.Sc3 Kc6 11.Sd5 Kd6 12.Sb4 Ke5 13.Kc3 Kd6 14.Kd4 Kc7 15.Kc5 Kb7 16.Sd5 Ka6 17.Kb4 Ka7 18.Kb5 Kb7 19.Sc3 Kc7 20.Se4 Kb7 21.Sd6+ Kc7 22.Kc5 Kd7 23.Sb5 2147
Bester Zug: Sd1-c3 Zeit: 0:31.703 min K/s: 2.147.816 Knoten: 29.882.571

Pity further Backward isn't provable (easily with those parameters).
So first moves still could well be not the best, yet maybe that's not easy to prove neither, is it?
Yes it's easy. Why 2...Kd4 and 5...Kc5 and 6...Kc6 and so on... They are clearly bad moves...
peter
Posts: 3472
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Can white win?

Post by peter »

Hobacle wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:46 pm
peter wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:41 pm How about this?

[pgn]
[Event "Chest"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2023.05.28"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Hobacle, Knight"]
[Black "Only, Second"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "N5bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1PK/8 w - -"]

1. Kg1 Kd3 2. Nb6 Kd4 3. Kf1 Kc5 4. Na4+ Kc4 5. Nb2+ Kc5
6. Ke2 Kc6 7. Nd1 Kb7 8. Kd3 Kc6 9. Kc4 Kd6 10. Nc3 Kc6
11. Nd5 Kd6 12. Nb4 Ke5 13. Kc3 Kd6 14. Kd4 Kc7 15. Kc5 Kb7
16. Nd5 Ka6 17. Kb4 Ka7 18. Kb5 Kb7 19. Nc3 Kc7 20. Ne4 Kb7
21. Nd6+ Kc7 22. Kc5 Kd7 23. Nb5 Kc8 24. Kb6 Kd8 25. Kc6
Kc8 26. Nc7 Kd8 27. Na6 Kc8 28. Kb6 Kd8 29. Kb5 Kd7 30. Kc5
Kd8 31. Kd6 Kc8 32. Kc6 Kd8 33. Nb8 Kc8 34. Nd7 Kd8 35. Nb6
Ke8 36. Kc7 Ke7 37. Nc8+ Kf8 38. Kc6 Ke8 39. Kd6 Kf8
40. Ne7 Ke8 41. Nxg8 Kf8 42. Ne7 Ke8 43. Nc6 Kf8 44. Kd7
Kg8 45. Nb8 Kf8 46. Kd8 Kg8 47. g3 Kf8 48. Nd7+ Kg8 49. Ke8
fxg3 50. Nb8 g2 51. Nc6 g1=Q 52. Ne7# 1-0
[/pgn]

Till 9th move it's from Chest,

FEN: 6bn/5ppr/3k1prb/5Pp1/2K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/3N4 w - - (7+11)
Stellungs-Analyse: C0/R0/K6/P1/X5 W:5/13
Suche nach 1. Spezial-Matt [C2/R0/K0/P2/X5] in 60 ... (Hash=2044MB)
43.05 0:13 +M43 10.Sc3 2142
Suche abgeschlossen ... (Zeit=13.91s)
Matt in 43 gefunden ! (1. Lösung in 00:13)
43/43 0:13 +M43 10.Sc3 Kc6 11.Sd5 Kd6 12.Sb4 Ke5 13.Kc3 Kd6 14.Kd4 Kc7 15.Kc5 Kb7 16.Sd5 Ka6 17.Kb4 Ka7 18.Kb5 Kb7 19.Sc3 Kc7 20.Se4 Kb7 21.Sd6+ Kc7 22.Kc5 Kd7 23.Sb5 2147
Bester Zug: Sd1-c3 Zeit: 0:31.703 min K/s: 2.147.816 Knoten: 29.882.571

Pity further Backward isn't provable (easily with those parameters).
So first moves still could well be not the best, yet maybe that's not easy to prove neither, is it?
Yes it's easy. Why 2...Kd4 and 5...Kc5 and 6...Kc6 and so on... They are clearly bad moves...
Ok, maybe they are, but can you prove to make DTM so much longer again with exchange of one or all of the first 9 ones from Black's side only, that White won't make it with a single one adjourn (Nxg8) of 50 moves, e.g, not at 41st as here but as latest 50th, that would still be # 61 then, wouldn't it?
Peter.
peter
Posts: 3472
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Can white win?

Post by peter »

Hobacle wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:46 pm
peter wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:41 pm How about this?

[pgn]
[Event "Chest"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2023.05.28"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Hobacle, Knight"]
[Black "Only, Second"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "N5bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1PK/8 w - -"]

1. Kg1 Kd3 2. Nb6 Kd4 3. Kf1 Kc5 4. Na4+ Kc4 5. Nb2+ Kc5
6. Ke2 Kc6 7. Nd1 Kb7 8. Kd3 Kc6 9. Kc4 Kd6 10. Nc3 Kc6
11. Nd5 Kd6 12. Nb4 Ke5 13. Kc3 Kd6 14. Kd4 Kc7 15. Kc5 Kb7
16. Nd5 Ka6 17. Kb4 Ka7 18. Kb5 Kb7 19. Nc3 Kc7 20. Ne4 Kb7
21. Nd6+ Kc7 22. Kc5 Kd7 23. Nb5 Kc8 24. Kb6 Kd8 25. Kc6
Kc8 26. Nc7 Kd8 27. Na6 Kc8 28. Kb6 Kd8 29. Kb5 Kd7 30. Kc5
Kd8 31. Kd6 Kc8 32. Kc6 Kd8 33. Nb8 Kc8 34. Nd7 Kd8 35. Nb6
Ke8 36. Kc7 Ke7 37. Nc8+ Kf8 38. Kc6 Ke8 39. Kd6 Kf8
40. Ne7 Ke8 41. Nxg8 Kf8 42. Ne7 Ke8 43. Nc6 Kf8 44. Kd7
Kg8 45. Nb8 Kf8 46. Kd8 Kg8 47. g3 Kf8 48. Nd7+ Kg8 49. Ke8
fxg3 50. Nb8 g2 51. Nc6 g1=Q 52. Ne7# 1-0
[/pgn]

Till 9th move it's from Chest,

FEN: 6bn/5ppr/3k1prb/5Pp1/2K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/3N4 w - - (7+11)
Stellungs-Analyse: C0/R0/K6/P1/X5 W:5/13
Suche nach 1. Spezial-Matt [C2/R0/K0/P2/X5] in 60 ... (Hash=2044MB)
43.05 0:13 +M43 10.Sc3 2142
Suche abgeschlossen ... (Zeit=13.91s)
Matt in 43 gefunden ! (1. Lösung in 00:13)
43/43 0:13 +M43 10.Sc3 Kc6 11.Sd5 Kd6 12.Sb4 Ke5 13.Kc3 Kd6 14.Kd4 Kc7 15.Kc5 Kb7 16.Sd5 Ka6 17.Kb4 Ka7 18.Kb5 Kb7 19.Sc3 Kc7 20.Se4 Kb7 21.Sd6+ Kc7 22.Kc5 Kd7 23.Sb5 2147
Bester Zug: Sd1-c3 Zeit: 0:31.703 min K/s: 2.147.816 Knoten: 29.882.571

Pity further Backward isn't provable (easily with those parameters).
So first moves still could well be not the best, yet maybe that's not easy to prove neither, is it?
Yes it's easy. Why 2...Kd4 and 5...Kc5 and 6...Kc6 and so on... They are clearly bad moves...
Then how about this?

[pgn]
[Event "Stellung ausspielen HekaStockfish"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2023.05.28"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Hobacle, Knight"]
[Black "Only, Second"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "N5bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1PK/8 w - -"]

1. Kg1 Ke3 2. Kf1 Kd2 3. Nb6 Kd3 4. Nc8 Kc2 5. Ke2 Kc3
6. Nd6 Kd4 7. Kd2 Kc5 8. Ne4+ Kd4 9. Nd6 Kd5 10. Ne4 Kd4
11. Nc3 Kc4 12. Nd1 Kb3 13. Kd3 Ka2 14. Kc2 Ka3 15. Nb2 Kb4
16. Kd3 Kb3 17. Nc4 Kb4 18. Nd2 Ka3 19. Kc3 Ka4 20. Ne4 Ka3
21. Nc5 Ka2 22. Nd3 Ka1 23. Kc2 Ka2 24. Nb4+ Ka3 25. Kc3
Ka4 26. Nc2 Kb5 27. Kd4 Kb6 28. Kc4 Ka5 29. Nd4 Ka4 30. Nb5
Ka5 31. Nc3 Kb6 32. Kd5 Ka5 33. Kc5 Ka6 34. Kb4 Kb7 35. Nd5
Ka6 36. Ka4 Kb7 37. Kb5 Ka7 38. Nc7 Kb7 39. Ne8 Kb8 40. Kc6
Ka8 41. Kb6 Kb8 42. Nd6 Ka8 43. Nc8 Kb8 44. Ne7 Ka8
45. Nxg8 Kb8 46. Ne7 Ka8 47. Nd5 Kb8 48. Nc7 Kc8 49. Na6
Kd8 50. Kb5 Kd7 51. Kc5 Kd8 52. Kd6 Kc8 53. Kc6 Kd8 54. Nc5
Ke8 55. Kc7 Ke7 56. Na6 Ke8 57. Nb4 Ke7 58. Nc6+ Ke8
59. Kc8 Kf8 60. Kd7 Kg8 61. Kd8 Kf8 62. Nb8 Kg8 63. g3 Kf8
64. Nd7+ Kg8 65. Ke8 fxg3 66. Nb8 g2 67. Nc6 g1=Q 68. Ne7#
1-0
[/pgn]
Peter.
Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Can white win?

Post by Hobacle »

peter wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:53 pm
Hobacle wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:46 pm
peter wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:41 pm How about this?

[pgn]
[Event "Chest"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2023.05.28"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Hobacle, Knight"]
[Black "Only, Second"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "N5bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1PK/8 w - -"]

1. Kg1 Kd3 2. Nb6 Kd4 3. Kf1 Kc5 4. Na4+ Kc4 5. Nb2+ Kc5
6. Ke2 Kc6 7. Nd1 Kb7 8. Kd3 Kc6 9. Kc4 Kd6 10. Nc3 Kc6
11. Nd5 Kd6 12. Nb4 Ke5 13. Kc3 Kd6 14. Kd4 Kc7 15. Kc5 Kb7
16. Nd5 Ka6 17. Kb4 Ka7 18. Kb5 Kb7 19. Nc3 Kc7 20. Ne4 Kb7
21. Nd6+ Kc7 22. Kc5 Kd7 23. Nb5 Kc8 24. Kb6 Kd8 25. Kc6
Kc8 26. Nc7 Kd8 27. Na6 Kc8 28. Kb6 Kd8 29. Kb5 Kd7 30. Kc5
Kd8 31. Kd6 Kc8 32. Kc6 Kd8 33. Nb8 Kc8 34. Nd7 Kd8 35. Nb6
Ke8 36. Kc7 Ke7 37. Nc8+ Kf8 38. Kc6 Ke8 39. Kd6 Kf8
40. Ne7 Ke8 41. Nxg8 Kf8 42. Ne7 Ke8 43. Nc6 Kf8 44. Kd7
Kg8 45. Nb8 Kf8 46. Kd8 Kg8 47. g3 Kf8 48. Nd7+ Kg8 49. Ke8
fxg3 50. Nb8 g2 51. Nc6 g1=Q 52. Ne7# 1-0
[/pgn]

Till 9th move it's from Chest,

FEN: 6bn/5ppr/3k1prb/5Pp1/2K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/3N4 w - - (7+11)
Stellungs-Analyse: C0/R0/K6/P1/X5 W:5/13
Suche nach 1. Spezial-Matt [C2/R0/K0/P2/X5] in 60 ... (Hash=2044MB)
43.05 0:13 +M43 10.Sc3 2142
Suche abgeschlossen ... (Zeit=13.91s)
Matt in 43 gefunden ! (1. Lösung in 00:13)
43/43 0:13 +M43 10.Sc3 Kc6 11.Sd5 Kd6 12.Sb4 Ke5 13.Kc3 Kd6 14.Kd4 Kc7 15.Kc5 Kb7 16.Sd5 Ka6 17.Kb4 Ka7 18.Kb5 Kb7 19.Sc3 Kc7 20.Se4 Kb7 21.Sd6+ Kc7 22.Kc5 Kd7 23.Sb5 2147
Bester Zug: Sd1-c3 Zeit: 0:31.703 min K/s: 2.147.816 Knoten: 29.882.571

Pity further Backward isn't provable (easily with those parameters).
So first moves still could well be not the best, yet maybe that's not easy to prove neither, is it?
Yes it's easy. Why 2...Kd4 and 5...Kc5 and 6...Kc6 and so on... They are clearly bad moves...
Ok, maybe they are, but can you prove to make DTM so much longer again with exchange of one or all of the first 9 ones from Black's side only, that White won't make it with a single one adjourn (Nxg8) of 50 moves, e.g, not at 41st as here but as latest 50th, that would still be # 61 then, wouldn't it?
Yes, I can.


[fen]N5bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1P1/7K w - - 0 1[/fen]
Let this position be Position O.

In Position O, there're 3 possible methods for white to win.
1) Nxg8, then drive the bK to f8, after that, mate;
2) Nxg8, then drive the bK to the a8 corner, after that, Kxh7;
3) drive the bK to the a8 corner, then Kxh7.
We can try the 3rd method first.

Let the following position be Position A:

[fen]7n/5ppr/5prb/2k2Pp1/5pP1/2K2P1P/2N3P1/8 b - -[/fen]

Mention this:
[pgn][Event "ChestUCI Ver.5.2"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "#78"]
[Black "C10/R0/K0/P2/X8"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "N6n/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1P1/7K w - -"]
[PlyCount "155"]

{N6n/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1P1/7K w - - bm #78; 08:00 @ C10/R0/K0/P2/X8;}
1.Kg1 Kd3 2.Nb6 Ke2 3.Na4 Ke1 4.Nc5 Ke2 5.Nb3 Ke1 6.Nd4 Kd1 7.Kf1 Kd2 8.Nb5
Kd1 9.Nd6 Kd2 10.Kf2 Kd3 11.Ne4 Kc2 12.Ke2 Kc1 13.Nc3 Kc2 14.Nb5 Kb3 15.Kd2
Kb4 16.Nc3 Kc4 17.Nd1 Kb4 18.Nb2 Kb3 19.Nd3 Kc4 20.Nc1 Kd4 21.Nb3+ Kc4 22.Kc2
Kb4 23.Nd2 Ka4 24.Kc3 Ka3 25.Nb3 Ka4 26.Nc1 Ka3 27.Kc2 Ka4 28.Na2 Ka3 29.Nc3
Kb4 30.Nb1 Kc4 31.Na3+ Kb4 32.Kb2 Ka4 33.Nc2 Kb5 34.Kb3 Kc5 35.Kc3 Kb5 36.Kd4
Ka5 37.Kc5 Ka4 38.Kc4 Ka5 39.Na3 Ka6 40.Nb5 Kb6 41.Nc3 Kc6 42.Nd5 Kd6 43.Nb4
Ke5 44.Kc3 Kd6 45.Kd4 Kc7 46.Kc5 Kb7 47.Nd5 Ka6 48.Kb4 Ka7 49.Kb5 Kb7 50.Nc3
Kc7 51.Ne4 Kb7 52.Nd6+ Kc7 53.Kc5 Kd7 54.Nb5 Kc8 55.Kb6 Kd8 56.Kc6 Kc8 57.Nc7
Kd8 58.Na6 Kc8 59.Kb6 Kd8 60.Kb5 Kd7 61.Kc5 Kd8 62.Kd6 Kc8 63.Kc6 Kd8 64.Nb8
Kc8 65.Nd7 Kd8 66.Nb6 Ke8 67.Nc8 Kd8 68.Nd6 Ke7 69.Kc7 Kf8 70.Kd8 Kg8 71.Nc8
Kf8 72.Nb6 Kg8 73.g3 Kf8 74.Nd7+ Kg8 75.Ke8 fxg3 76.Nb8 g2 77.Nc6 g1Q 78.Ne7#
1-0[/pgn]
This line shows the shortest way for white to drive the bK to f8 and mate then in Position O without the bB at g8, and Position A without the bB at g8 appears after white's 35nd move, so we can prove that the shortest way for white to force Position O to Position A or some position that is not better than Position A for bK to avoid being driven to f8 is 34.5 moves in length(if black plays accurately). It's clearly that any position that is not better than Position A for bK to avoid being driven to f8 is not better than Position A for bK to avoid being driven to the a8 corner, so the shortest way for white to force Position O to Position A or some position that is not better than Position A for bK to avoid being driven to the a8 corner is 34.5 moves in length. We can let the first 34.5 moves in this line be the first 34.5 moves of our line implementing the 3rd method:
[pgn][FEN "N6n/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1P1/7K w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "69"]

1. Kg1 Kd3 2. Nb6 Ke2 3. Na4 Ke1 4. Nc5 Ke2 5. Nb3 Ke1 6. Nd4 Kd1 7. Kf1 Kd2 8.
Nb5 Kd1 9. Nd6 Kd2 10. Kf2 Kd3 11. Ne4 Kc2 12. Ke2 Kc1 13. Nc3 Kc2 14. Nb5 Kb3
15. Kd2 Kb4 16. Nc3 Kc4 17. Nd1 Kb4 18. Nb2 Kb3 19. Nd3 Kc4 20. Nc1 Kd4 21.
Nb3+ Kc4 22. Kc2 Kb4 23. Nd2 Ka4 24. Kc3 Ka3 25. Nb3 Ka4 26. Nc1 Ka3 27. Kc2
Ka4 28. Na2 Ka3 29. Nc3 Kb4 30. Nb1 Kc4 31. Na3+ Kb4 32. Kb2 Ka4 33. Nc2 Kb5
34. Kb3 Kc5 35. Kc3[/pgn]
And then, it's easy for me to calculate out the left moves of the line implementing the 3rd method while resetting the 50-move counter as soon as possible:
[pgn][FEN "N5bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1P1/7K w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "121"]

1. Kg1 Kd3 2. Nb6 Ke2 3. Na4 Ke1 4. Nc5 Ke2 5. Nb3 Ke1 6. Nd4 Kd1 7. Kf1 Kd2 8.
Nb5 Kd1 9. Nd6 Kd2 10. Kf2 Kd3 11. Ne4 Kc2 12. Ke2 Kc1 13. Nc3 Kc2 14. Nb5 Kb3
15. Kd2 Kb4 16. Nc3 Kc4 17. Nd1 Kb4 18. Nb2 Kb3 19. Nd3 Kc4 20. Nc1 Kd4 21.
Nb3+ Kc4 22. Kc2 Kb4 23. Nd2 Ka4 24. Kc3 Ka3 25. Nb3 Ka4 26. Nc1 Ka3 27. Kc2
Ka4 28. Na2 Ka3 29. Nc3 Kb4 30. Nb1 Kc4 31. Na3+ Kb4 32. Kb2 Ka4 33. Nc2 Kb5
34. Kb3 Kc5 35. Kc3 Kb6 36. Kd4 Ka5 37. Kc5 Ka4 38. Kc4 Ka5 39. Nd4 Ka6 40. Kc5
Ka5 41. Nb5 Ka4 42. Kc4 Ka5 43. Nc3 Ka6 44. Kd5 Kb6 45. Kd6 Ka6 46. Kc6 Ka5 47.
Kc5 Ka6 48. Nd5 Ka7 49. Nb6 Kb7 50. Nc4 Kc7 {50} 51. Nd6 Kd7 52. Nb5 Kc8 53.
Kb6 Kb8 54. Nd6 Ka8 55. Ne4 Kb8 56. Kc6 Ka7 (56... Kc8 57. Kd6 Kd8 58. Nc3 Ke8
(58... Kc8 59. Ke7 Kc7 60. Kf8 Kd6 61. Kxg8 Kc5 62. Kxh7) 59. Nd5 Kf8 60. Ne7
Ke8 61. Nxg8 {then mate}) 57. Kd7 Kb6 58. Ke7 Kb5 59. Kf8 Kc4 60. Kxg8 Kd3 61.
Kxh7[/pgn]
Of course it draws by the 50-move rule after 50...Kb8, so the 3rd method can be excluded.

Then we can try the 1st and the 2nd method. The key to both of them is when to play Nxg8. To win, the 50-move counter must be reset in not more than 50 moves after Nxg8. It's clearly that the 2nd method is faster in resetting the 50-move counter.
Let's observe some positions.



[fen]6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/2k2pP1/5P1P/2K3P1/8 w - - 0[/fen]
This draws.




[fen]6Nn/5ppr/5prb/2k2Pp1/5pP1/2K2P1P/6P1/8 w - - 0[/fen]
This draws.



[fen]6Nn/5ppr/1k3prb/3K1Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0[/fen]
This draws.




[fen]4k1Nn/5ppr/3K1prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0[/fen]
White is winning.




[fen]6Nn/5ppr/1k3prb/5Pp1/1K3pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0[/fen]
White is winning.




[fen]6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/1k1K1pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0[/fen]
In the way we excluded the 3rd method, we can get this line:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/1k1K1pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "100"]

1... Kb3 2. Kd3 Kb2 3. Ne7 Kc1 4. Ke2 Kc2 5. Nd5 Kb3 6. Kd2 Kc4 7. Nc3 Kb4 8.
Nd1 Kc4 9. Nb2+ Kd4 10. Nd3 Kc4 11. Nc1 Kd4 12. Nb3+ Kc4 13. Kc2 Kb4 14. Nd2
Ka4 15. Kc3 Ka3 16. Nb3 Ka2 17. Kc2 Ka3 18. Nc1 Ka4 19. Na2 Ka3 20. Nc3 Kb4 21.
Nb1 Kc4 22. Na3+ Kb4 23. Kb2 Ka4 24. Nc2 Kb5 25. Kb3 Kc5 26. Kc3 Kb5 27. Kd4
Ka5 28. Kc5 Ka4 29. Kc4 Ka5 30. Nd4 Ka6 31. Nb5 Kb6 32. Nc3 Kc6 33. Nd5 Kd6 34.
Nb4 Ke5 35. Kd3 Kd6 36. Kd4 Kc7 37. Kc5 Kb7 38. Nd5 Ka7 39. Nb6 Kb7 40. Nc4 Kc7
41. Nd6 Kd7 42. Nb5 Kc8 43. Kb6 Kb8 44. Nd6 Ka8 45. Ne4 Kb8 46. Kc6 Kc8 47. Kd6
Kd8 48. Nc5 Kc8 49. Ke7 Kc7 50. Kf8 Kc6 51. Ne4[/pgn]
So it draws by the 50-move rule.




[fen]6Nn/5ppr/5prb/k4Pp1/2K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0[/fen]
In the way we excluded the 3rd method, we can get this line:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/k4Pp1/2K2pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "97"]

1... Ka4 2. Ne7 Ka3 3. Kc3 Ka2 4. Kc2 Ka3 5. Nc6 Ka2 6. Nb4+ Ka1 7. Nd3 Ka2 8.
Nc1+ Ka1 9. Kc3 Kb1 10. Nb3 Ka2 11. Kc2 Ka3 12. Nc1 Ka4 13. Na2 Ka3 14. Nc3 Kb4
15. Nb1 Kc4 16. Na3+ Kb4 17. Kb2 Ka4 18. Nc2 Kb5 19. Kb3 Kc5 20. Kc3 Kb5 21.
Kd4 Ka5 22. Kc5 Ka4 23. Kc4 Ka5 24. Nd4 Ka6 25. Nb5 Kb6 26. Nc3 Kc6 27. Nd5 Kd6
28. Nb4 Ke5 29. Kd3 Kd6 30. Kd4 Kc7 31. Kc5 Kb7 32. Nd5 Ka7 33. Nb6 Kb7 34. Nc4
Kc7 35. Nd6 Kd7 36. Nb5 Kc8 37. Kb6 Kb8 38. Nd6 Ka8 39. Ne4 Kb8 40. Kc6 Kc8
(40... Ka7 41. Kd7 Kb6 42. Ke7 Kb5 43. Kf8 Kc4 44. Kg8 Kd3 45. Kxh7) 41. Kd6
Kd8 42. Nc5 Kc8 (42... Ke8 43. Nb7 Kf8 44. Kd7 Kg8 45. Nd6 Kf8 46. Nc8 Kg8 47.
h4 Kf8 48. h5 Kg8 49. Nb6 Kf8 50. Kd8 Kg8 51. g3 Kf8 52. Nd7+ Kg8 53. Ke8 fxg3
54. Nb8 g2 55. Nc6 g1=Q 56. Ne7#) 43. Ke7 Kc7 44. Kf8 Kc6 45. Ne4 Kd5 46. Kg8
Kd4 47. Kxh7[/pgn]
So white is winning under the 50-move rule, but only when using the 2nd method.




[fen]6Nn/5ppr/k4prb/2K2Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0[/fen]
In the way we excluded the 3rd method, we can get this line:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/k4prb/2K2Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/6P1/8 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "97"]

1... Ka5 2. Ne7 Ka4 3. Kc4 Ka3 4. Kc3 Ka2 5. Kc2 Ka3 6. Nc6 Ka2 7. Nb4+ Ka1 8.
Nd3 Ka2 9. Nc1+ Ka1 10. Kc3 Kb1 11. Nb3 Ka2 12. Kc2 Ka3 13. Nc1 Ka4 14. Na2 Ka3
15. Nc3 Kb4 16. Nb1 Kc4 17. Na3+ Kb4 18. Kb2 Ka4 19. Nc2 Kb5 20. Kb3 Kc5 21.
Kc3 Kb5 22. Kd4 Ka5 23. Kc5 Ka4 24. Kc4 Ka5 25. Nd4 Ka6 26. Nb5 Kb6 27. Nc3 Kc6
28. Nd5 Kd6 29. Nb4 Ke5 30. Kd3 Kd6 31. Kd4 Kc7 32. Kc5 Kb7 33. Nd5 Ka7 34. Nb6
Kb7 35. Nc4 Kc7 36. Nd6 Kd7 37. Nb5 Kc8 38. Kb6 Kb8 39. Nd6 Ka8 40. Ne4 Kb8 41.
Kc6 Kc8 (41... Ka7 42. Kd7 Kb6 43. Ke7 Kb5 44. Kf8 Kc4 45. Kg8 Kd3 46. Kxh7)
42. Kd6 Kd8 43. Nc5 Kc8 (43... Ke8 44. Nb7 Kf8 45. Kd7 Kg8 46. Nd6 Kf8 47. Nc8
Kg8 48. h4 Kf8 49. h5 Kg8 50. Nb6 Kf8 51. Kd8 Kg8 52. g3 Kf8 53. Nd7+ Kg8 54.
Ke8 fxg3 55. Nb8 g2 56. Nc6 g1=Q 57. Ne7#) 44. Ke7 Kc7 45. Kf8 Kc6 46. Ne4 Kd5
47. Kg8 Kd4 48. Kxh7[/pgn]
So white is winning under the 50-move rule, but only when using the 2nd method.




[fen]6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/2K2P1P/k5P1/8 b - - 0[/fen]
In the way we excluded the 3rd method, we can get this line:
[pgn][FEN "6Nn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/2K2P1P/k5P1/8 b - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "100"]

1... Kb1 2. Kd2 Kb2 3. Ne7 Kb3 4. Nd5 Kc4 5. Nc3 Kb4 6. Nd1 Kc4 7. Nb2+ Kd4 8.
Nd3 Kc4 9. Nc1 Kd4 10. Nb3+ Kc4 11. Kc2 Kb4 12. Nd2 Ka4 13. Kc3 Ka3 14. Nb3 Ka2
15. Kc2 Ka3 16. Nc1 Ka4 17. Na2 Ka3 18. Nc3 Kb4 19. Nb1 Kc4 20. Na3+ Kb4 21.
Kb2 Ka4 22. Nc2 Kb5 23. Kb3 Kc5 24. Kc3 Kb5 25. Kd4 Ka5 26. Kc5 Ka4 27. Kc4 Ka5
28. Nd4 Ka6 29. Nb5 Kb6 30. Nc3 Kc6 31. Nd5 Kd6 32. Nb4 Ke5 33. Kd3 Kd6 34. Kd4
Kc7 35. Kc5 Kb7 36. Nd5 Ka7 37. Nb6 Kb7 38. Nc4 Kc7 39. Nd6 Kd7 40. Nb5 Kc8 41.
Kb6 Kb8 42. Nd6 Ka8 43. Ne4 Kb8 44. Kc6 Kc8 45. Kd6 Kd8 46. Nc5 Kc8 (46... Ke8
47. Nb7 Kf8 48. Kd7 Kg8 49. Nd6 Kf8 50. Nc8 Kg8 51. h4 Kf8 52. h5 Kg8 53. Nb6
Kf8 54. Kd8 Kg8 55. g3 Kf8 56. Nd7+ Kg8 57. Ke8 fxg3 58. Nb8 g2 59. Nc6 g1=Q
60. Ne7#) 47. Ke7 Kc7 48. Kf8 Kc6 49. Ne4 Kd5 50. Kg8 Kd4 51. Kxh7[/pgn]
So white is winning under the 50-move rule, but only when using the 2nd method.




So we get all those winning positions. It can be proven that the shortest way for white to force Position O to Position A or some position that is not better than Position A for bK to avoid being driven to those winning positions is 34.5 moves in length, so, we get this again:
[pgn][FEN "N5bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1P1/7K w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "69"]

1. Kg1 Kd3 2. Nb6 Ke2 3. Na4 Ke1 4. Nc5 Ke2 5. Nb3 Ke1 6. Nd4 Kd1 7. Kf1 Kd2 8.
Nb5 Kd1 9. Nd6 Kd2 10. Kf2 Kd3 11. Ne4 Kc2 12. Ke2 Kc1 13. Nc3 Kc2 14. Nb5 Kb3
15. Kd2 Kb4 16. Nc3 Kc4 17. Nd1 Kb4 18. Nb2 Kb3 19. Nd3 Kc4 20. Nc1 Kd4 21.
Nb3+ Kc4 22. Kc2 Kb4 23. Nd2 Ka4 24. Kc3 Ka3 25. Nb3 Ka4 26. Nc1 Ka3 27. Kc2
Ka4 28. Na2 Ka3 29. Nc3 Kb4 30. Nb1 Kc4 31. Na3+ Kb4 32. Kb2 Ka4 33. Nc2 Kb5
34. Kb3 Kc5 35. Kc3[/pgn]
Then, it's easy for me to calculate out the left moves of the line forcing to those winning positions while resetting the 50-move counter as soon as possible:
[pgn][FEN "N5bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1P1/7K w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "97"]

1. Kg1 Kd3 2. Nb6 Ke2 3. Na4 Ke1 4. Nc5 Ke2 5. Nb3 Ke1 6. Nd4 Kd1 7. Kf1 Kd2 8.
Nb5 Kd1 9. Nd6 Kd2 10. Kf2 Kd3 11. Ne4 Kc2 12. Ke2 Kc1 13. Nc3 Kc2 14. Nb5 Kb3
15. Kd2 Kb4 16. Nc3 Kc4 17. Nd1 Kb4 18. Nb2 Kb3 19. Nd3 Kc4 20. Nc1 Kd4 21.
Nb3+ Kc4 22. Kc2 Kb4 23. Nd2 Ka4 24. Kc3 Ka3 25. Nb3 Ka4 26. Nc1 Ka3 27. Kc2
Ka4 28. Na2 Ka3 29. Nc3 Kb4 30. Nb1 Kc4 31. Na3+ Kb4 32. Kb2 Ka4 33. Nc2 Kb5
34. Kb3 Kc5 35. Kc3 Kb5 36. Kd4 Ka5 37. Kc5 Ka4 38. Kc4 Ka5 39. Nd4 Ka4 40. Nb5
Ka5 41. Nc3 Kb6 42. Kd5 Ka6 (42... Kb7 43. Kc5 Kc7 44. Nd5+ Kd7 45. Nb4 Kc8 46.
Nc6 Kd7 47. Kd5 Kc7 48. Ne7 Kb6 49. Kc4 Ka5 50. Nxg8) 43. Kc6 Ka5 44. Kc5 Ka6
45. Nd5 Ka5 46. Ne7 Ka4 47. Kc4 Ka3 48. Kc3 Ka2 49. Nxg8[/pgn]
So only the 2nd method works, and eventually, we can get the left moves for white to win:
Hobacle wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 3:59 pm [pgn][Result "1-0"]
[FEN "N5bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1PK/8 w - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

1. Kg1 Kd3 2. Nb6 Ke2 3. Nd5 Ke1 4. Nc7 Ke2 5. Nb5 Ke1 6. Nd4 Kd1 7. Kf1 Kd2 8.
Nb5 Kd1 9. Nd6 Kd2 10. Kf2 Kd3 11. Ne4 Kc2 12. Ke2 Kc1 13. Nc3 Kc2 14. Nb5 Kb3
15. Kd3 Kb2 16. Kd2 Kb3 17. Nd6 Kb4 18. Kd3 Ka3 19. Kc3 Ka2 20. Nc4 Ka1 21. Kd2
Kb1 22. Kd1 Ka1 23. Kc1 Ka2 24. Kc2 Ka1 25. Na5 Ka2 26. Nb3 (26. Nc6 $2 26...
Ka3 27. Kc3 Ka4 28. Ne7 Kb5 29. Kd4 Kb4 30. Nxg8 Kb3 31. Kd3 Kb2 32. Ne7 Kc1
33. Ke2 Kc2 34. Nd5 Kb3 35. Kd2 {a} 35... Kc4 $11) 26... Ka3 27. Nc1 Ka4 28.
Na2 Ka3 29. Nc3 Kb4 30. Nb1 Kc4 31. Na3+ Kb4 (31... Kd4 32. Kd2 Kd5 (32... Kc5
33. Kc3 Kd5 34. Nc2 {B} 34... Kc5 35. Nd4 Kd5 36. Nb3 Kc6 (36... Kd6 37. Kc4
{D}) 37. Kc4 Kd6 (37... Kb6 38. Nd4 Kb7 (38... Ka5 39. Nc6+ Ka4 40. Ne7 {I})
39. Kc5 {G}) 38. Na5 Ke5 39. Kd3 Kd6 40. Kd4 Kd7 41. Kc5 {H}) (32... Ke5 33.
Kc3 Kd5 34. Nc2 {B}) 33. Kc3 Kc5 34. Nc2 {A}) 32. Kb2 Ka4 (32... Kc5 33. Kc3
Kd5 34. Nc2 {B}) 33. Nc2 Kb5 34. Kb3 Kc5 35. Kc3 {A} 35... Kb5 (35... Kd5 36.
Kb4 Kd6 (36... Ke5 37. Kc4 Kd6 38. Nb4 {E} 38... Ke5 39. Kd3 Kd6 40. Kd4 Kd7
41. Kc5 {I}) (36... Kc6 37. Kc4 {C} 37... Kd6 (37... Kb6 38. Nd4 Kb7 (38... Ka5
39. Nc6+ Ka4 (39... Kb6 40. Ne7 {X}) 40. Ne7 {V}) 39. Kc5 {G}) 38. Nb4 {E}) 37.
Kc4 Kc6 38. Nd4+ {D} 38... Kd6 (38... Kb6 39. Kb4 {F}) 39. Nb3 {D} 39... Kc6
40. Na5+ Kb6 (40... Kd6 41. Kd4 Kd7 42. Kc5 {H} 42... Kc8 43. Nc6 {J}) 41. Kb4
Kc7 (41... Ka6 42. Nc6 Kb7 43. Ne7 Kb6 44. Nxg8 {Y}) 42. Kc5 Kc8 43. Nc6 {J})
36. Kd4 Ka5 (36... Kb6 37. Kc4 Kc6 38. Nd4+ {D}) (36... Kc6 37. Kc4 {C}) 37.
Kc5 Ka4 38. Kc4 Ka5 39. Nd4 Ka4 (39... Ka6 40. Nc6 Kb6 41. Ne7 {X}) (39... Kb6
40. Kb4 {F} 40... Kb7 (40... Kc7 41. Kc5 Kc8 42. Nc6 {J}) (40... Ka6 41. Nc6
Kb7 42. Ne7 Kb6 43. Nxg8 {Y}) 41. Kc5 {G} 41... Kc8 (41... Ka6 42. Nc6 Kb7 43.
Ne7 Ka6 44. Kb4 Kb6 45. Nxg8 {Y}) 42. Nc6 {J}) 40. Nb5 Ka5 41. Nc3 Kb6 42. Kd5
Ka6 (42... Kb7 43. Kc5 Kc7 44. Nd5+ Kd7 45. Nb4 {I} 45... Kc8 46. Nc6 {J} 46...
Kd7 (46... Kb7 47. Ne7 Ka6 48. Nxg8 {W}) 47. Kd5 Kc7 (47... Ke8 48. Kd6 Kf8 49.
Ne7 {Z} 49... Ke8 50. Nxg8 $18) 48. Ne7 Kb6 49. Kc4 {X} 49... Ka5 50. Nxg8 Ka4
51. Ne7 Ka3 52. Kc3 Ka2 53. Kc2 Ka3 54. Nc6 Ka2 55. Nb4+ Ka1 56. Nd3 Ka2 57.
Nc1+ Ka1 58. Kc3 Kb1 59. Nb3 Ka2 60. Kc2 $18 {b}) (42... Kc7 43. Kc5 Kd7 (43...
Kb7 44. Nd5 Ka6 45. Kb4 Kb7 46. Ne7 Kb6 47. Nxg8 $18 {Y}) 44. Nd5 Kd8 (44...
Ke8 45. Kd6 Kf8 46. Ne7 {Z}) 45. Kc6 Ke8 46. Kd6 Kf8 47. Ne7 {Z}) 43. Kc6 Ka5
44. Kc5 Ka6 45. Nd5 Ka5 46. Ne7 Ka4 47. Kc4 {V} 47... Ka3 48. Kc3 Ka2 49. Nxg8
Kb1 50. Kd2 Kb2 51. Ne7 Kb3 52. Nd5 {a} 52... Kc4 53. Nc3 Kb4 54. Nd1 Kc4 55.
Nb2+ Kd4 56. Nd3 Kc4 57. Nc1 Kd4 58. Nb3+ Kc4 59. Kc2 Kb4 60. Nd2 Ka4 61. Kc3
Ka3 62. Nb3 Ka2 63. Kc2 {b} 63... Ka3 64. Nc1 Ka4 65. Na2 Ka3 66. Nc3 Kb4 67.
Nb1 Kc4 68. Na3+ Kb4 (68... Kd4 69. Kd2 Kd5 (69... Kc5 70. Kc3 Kd5 71. Nc2 Kc5
72. Nd4 Kd5 73. Nb3 Ke5 74. Kc4 Kd6 75. Na5 Ke5 76. Nc6+ Kd6 77. Nb4 {d}) 70.
Kc3 Kc5 71. Nc2 {c}) 69. Kb2 Ka4 70. Nc2 Kb5 71. Kb3 Kc5 72. Kc3 {c} 72... Kb5
(72... Kd5 73. Kb4 Kc6 74. Kc4 Kd6 (74... Kb6 75. Nd4 Ka5 76. Kb3 Ka6 77. Ka4
Kb6 78. Kb4 Ka6 79. Nc6 Kb6 80. Na5 Ka6 (80... Kc7 81. Kc5 Kd7 82. Nc4 Kc7 83.
Nd6 {g}) (80... Ka7 81. Kc5 Ka6 82. Nc4 Ka7 83. Kd6 {i}) 81. Nc4 Kb7 82. Kc5
{f}) 75. Nd4 Ke5 76. Nc6+ Kd6 77. Nb4 {d}) 73. Kd4 Ka5 74. Kc5 Ka4 75. Kc4 Ka5
76. Nd4 Ka6 77. Nb5 Kb6 (77... Ka5 78. Nc3 Kb6 79. Kd5 Ka6 80. Kc6 Ka5 81. Kc5
Ka6 82. Nd5 Ka7 (82... Kb7 83. Kb5 {h}) 83. Nb6 {e}) 78. Nc3 Kc6 79. Nd5 Kd6
80. Nb4 {d} 80... Ke5 81. Kd3 Kd6 82. Kd4 Kc7 83. Kc5 Kb7 84. Nd5 Ka7 (84...
Ka6 85. Kb4 Ka7 86. Ka5 Kb7 87. Kb5 {h} 87... Ka7 88. Nc7 Kb7 89. Na6 Kc8
(89... Ka7 90. Nc5 Kb8 91. Kc6 Kc8 92. Ne4 Kd8 93. Nd6 Ke7 94. Kc7 Kf8 95. Kd8
Kg8 96. Nc8 Kf8 97. Nb6 Kg8 98. g3) 90. Kc6 Kd8 91. Kd6 Ke8 92. Nc5 Kd8 93. Ne4
Ke8 94. Kc7 Ke7 (94... Kf8 95. Kd7 Kg8 96. Nd6 Kf8 97. Nc8 Kg8 98. h4) 95. Nd6
Kf8 96. Kd8 Kg8 97. Nc8 Kf8 98. Nb6 Kg8 99. g3) 85. Nb6 {e} 85... Kb7 86. Nc4
{f} 86... Kc7 (86... Ka7 87. Kd6 {i} 87... Kb7 88. Kd7 Ka6 89. Kc6 Ka7 90. Nd6
Ka6 91. Nb7 Ka7 92. Nc5 Kb8 93. Kd7 Ka7 94. Ke7 Kb6 95. Ne4 Kb5 96. Kf8 Kc4 97.
Kg8 Kd3 98. Kxh7) 87. Nd6 {g} 87... Kd7 88. Nb5 Kc8 89. Kb6 Kb8 90. Nd6 Ka8 91.
Ne4 Kb8 92. Kc6 Ka7 (92... Kc8 93. Kd6 Kd8 94. Nc5 Kc8 (94... Ke8 95. Nb7 Kf8
96. Kd7 Kg8 97. Nd6 Kf8 98. Nc8 Kg8 99. h4 Kf8 100. h5 Kg8 101. Nb6 Kf8 102.
Kd8 Kg8 103. g3 Kf8 104. Nd7+ Kg8 105. Ke8 fxg3 106. Nb8 g2 107. Nc6 g1=Q 108.
Ne7#) 95. Ke7 Kc7 96. Kf8 Kd6 97. Ne4+ Kd5 98. Kg8 Kd4 99. Kxh7) 93. Kd7 Kb6
94. Ke7 Kb5 95. Kf8 Kc4 96. Kg8 Kd3 97.Kxh7 1-0
[/pgn]
peter
Posts: 3472
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Can white win?

Post by peter »

Hobacle wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:18 pm Yes, I can.
Thanks for the big efforts, dear Hobacle, but forgive me not to check all these lines, the piece is just too complicated for me, regards
Peter.
Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Can white win?

Post by Hobacle »

peter wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:32 pm
Hobacle wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:18 pm Yes, I can.
Thanks for the big efforts, dear Hobacle, but forgive me not to check all these lines, the piece is just too complicated for me, regards
To reduce the calculation I used dear Chest, so it's not so complicated as it originally was. If I posted my own calculation, the length would be shorter, but I wouldn't know how to explain it in words.

BTW, I thought it's a mate in at most 139. I posted a line before:
Hobacle wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 3:02 pm [pgn][Result "1-0"]
[FEN "N5bn/5ppr/5prb/5Pp1/5pP1/5P1P/4k1PK/8 w - - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

1. Kg1 Kd3 2. Nb6 Ke2 3. Nd5 Ke1 4. Nc7 Ke2 5. Nb5 Ke1 6. Nd4 Kd1 7. Kf1 Kd2 8.
Nb5 Kd1 9. Nd6 Kd2 10. Kf2 Kd3 11. Ne4 Kc2 12. Ke2 Kc1 13. Nc3 Kc2 14. Nb5 Kb3
15. Kd3 Kb2 16. Kd2 Kb3 17. Nd6 Kb4 18. Kd3 Ka3 19. Kc3 Ka2 20. Nc4 Ka1 21. Kd2
Kb1 22. Kd1 Ka1 23. Kc1 Ka2 24. Kc2 Ka1 25. Na5 Ka2 26. Nb3 (26. Nc6 $2 26...
Ka3 27. Kc3 Ka4 28. Ne7 Kb5 29. Kd4 Kb4 30. Nxg8 Kb3 31. Kd3 Kb2 32. Ne7 Kc1
33. Ke2 Kc2 34. Nd5 Kb3 35. Kd2 Kc4 36. Nc3 Kb4 37. Nd1 Kc4 38. Nb2+ Kd4 39.
Nd3 Kc4 40. Nc1 Kd4 41. Nb3+ Kc4 42. Kc2 Kb4 43. Nd2 Ka4 44. Kc3 Ka3 45. Nb3
Ka2 46. Kc2 Ka3 47. Nc1 Ka4 48. Na2 Ka3 49. Nc3 Kb4 50. Nb1 Kc4 51. Na3+ Kb4
52. Kb2 Ka4 53. Nc2 Kb5 54. Kb3 Kc5 55. Kc3 Kb5 56. Kd4 Ka5 57. Kc5 Ka4 58. Kc4
Ka5 59. Nd4 Ka6 60. Nb5 Kb6 61. Nc3 Kc6 62. Nd5 Kd6 63. Nb4 Ke5 64. Kd3 Kd6 65.
Kd4 Kc7 66. Kc5 Kb7 67. Nd5 Ka7 68. Nb6 Kb7 69. Nc4 Kc7 70. Nd6 Kd7 71. Nb5 Kc8
72. Kb6 Kb8 73. Nd6 Ka8 74. Ne4 Kb8 75. Kc6 Kc8 76. Kd6 Kd8 77. Nc5 Ke8 78. Nb7
Kf8 79. Kd7 Kg8 80. Nd6 $11) 26... Ka3 27. Nc1 Ka4 28. Na2 Ka3 29. Nc3 Kb4 30.
Nb1 Kc4 31. Na3+ Kb4 32. Kb2 Ka4 33. Nc2 Kb5 34. Kb3 Kc5 35. Kc3 Kb5 36. Kd4
Ka5 37. Kc5 Ka4 38. Kc4 Ka5 39. Nd4 Ka4 40. Nb5 Ka5 41. Nc3 Kb6 42. Kd5 Ka6
(42... Kb7 43. Kc5 Kc7 44. Nd5+ Kd7 45. Nb4 Kc8 46. Nc6 Kd7 47. Kd5 Kc7 48. Ne7
Kb6 49. Kc4 (49. Nxg8 $2 49... Kb5 $11) 49... Ka5 50. Nxg8 $18) 43. Kc6 Ka5 44.
Kc5 Ka6 45. Nd5 Ka5 46. Ne7 Ka4 47. Kc4 Ka3 48. Kc3 Ka2 49. Nxg8 Kb1 50. Kd2
Kb2 51. Ne7 Kb3 52. Nd5 Kc4 53. Nc3 Kb4 54. Nd1 Kc4 55. Nb2+ Kd4 56. Nd3 Kc4
57. Nc1 Kd4 58. Nb3+ Kc4 59. Kc2 Kb4 60. Nd2 Ka4 61. Kc3 Ka3 62. Nb3 Ka2 63.
Kc2 Ka3 64. Nc1 Ka4 65. Na2 Ka3 66. Nc3 Kb4 67. Nb1 Kc4 68. Na3+ Kb4 69. Kb2
Ka4 70. Nc2 Kb5 71. Kb3 Kc5 72. Kc3 Kb5 73. Kd4 Ka5 74. Kc5 Ka4 75. Kc4 Ka5 76.
Nd4 Ka6 77. Nb5 Kb6 78. Nc3 Kc6 79. Nd5 Kd6 80. Nb4 Ke5 81. Kd3 Kd6 82. Kd4 Kc7
83. Kc5 Kb7 84. Nd5 Ka7 85. Nb6 Kb7 86. Nc4 Kc7 87. Nd6 Kd7 88. Nb5 Kc8 89. Kb6
Kb8 90. Nd6 Ka8 91. Ne4 Kb8 92. Kc6 Ka7 (92... Kc8 93. Kd6 Kd8 94. Nc5 Kc8
(94... Ke8 95. Nb7 Kf8 96. Kd7 Kg8 97. Nd6 Kf8 98. Nc8 Kg8 99. h4 Kf8 100. h5
Kg8 101. Nb6 Kf8 102. Kd8 Kg8 103. g3 Kf8 104. Nd7+ Kg8 105. Ke8 fxg3 106. Nb8
g2 107. Nc6 g1=Q 108. Ne7#) 95. Ke7 Kc7 96. Kf8 Kd6 97. Ne4+ Kd5 98. Kg8 Kd4
99. Kxh7 $18) 93. Kd7 Kb6 94. Ke7 Kb5 95. Kf8 Kc4 96. Kg8 Kd3 97. Kxh7 $18
97... Ke2 98. Kxh8 Kf1 99. Nd6 Kxg2 100. Nxf7 Kxf3 101. fxg6 Kg3 102. Nxh6 f3
103. Kxg7 f2 104. Kh8 f1=Q 105. g7 Qxh3 106. Kh7 Kf4 107. g8=Q Qd3+ 108. Kh8
Qc3 109. Qf7 Kg3 110. Kh7 Qe5 111. Qc4 Kh4 112. Nf5+ Kh3 113. Kg6 Qe8+ 114.
Kxf6 Qd8+ 115. Kg6 Qe8+ 116. Kxg5 Qd8+ 117. Kg6 Qe8+ 118. Kh7 Qe5 119. Nh6 Qe7+
120. Kg6 Qe8+ 121. Nf7 Qg8+ 122. Kh5 Qh7+ 123. Nh6 Qe7 124. Qf1+ Kh2 125. g5
Qe8+ 126. g6 Qe5+ 127. Qf5 Qh8 128. g7 Qe8+ 129. Kg5 Qd8+ 130. Qf6 Qa5+ 131.
Kg6 Qd5 132. g8=Q Qg2+ 133. Kh5 Qf3+ 134. Kg5 Qe3+ 135. Qf4+ Qg3+ 136. Kf5
Qxf4+ 137. Kxf4 Kh1 138. Kf3 Kh2 139. Qg2# 1-0
[/pgn]
Hobacle
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:57 pm
Full name: Nott Q Suree

Re: Can white win?

Post by Hobacle »

Well, well. Though, well.
Thank you, TalkChess, for making my dream come true.
DmitriyFrosty
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:29 pm
Full name: Dmitry Frosty

Re: Can white win?

Post by DmitriyFrosty »

Hobacle wrote: Thu May 11, 2023 12:15 pm [fen]4n2n/5ppr/5prb/1N3Pp1/5pP1/5P2/3Pk1PP/4N1K1 w - - 0 1[/fen]
First question would be: is this position equal?