Stockfish: Our lawsuit against ChessBase

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towforce
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Re: Stockfish: Our lawsuit against ChessBase

Post by towforce »

This is a very good post - thank you for the effort - but there are a couple of points which don't look quite right to me...
syzygy wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:35 pmLet's consider a program that uses an NN to generate an image in response to a textual prompt.

The following persons might try to claim a copyright:
- the programmer;
- the person training the NN;
- the artists on whose works the NN is trained;
- the operator who enters the textual prompt.

And the claimed copyright might cover the following things:
- the source code;
- the NN weights;
- the generated images.

My answer:

* the source code and the NN weights belong to the programmer (or the person/company who commissioned the programmer's work).

* the generated images belong to the person/company that commissioned them (assuming they're using the software legally)

* the artist on whose work the NN was trained has no rights to anything unless the system produces a work of art that is similar to one of his own works. Under British law (don't know the rest of the world - sorry), the similarity between the original work and the derived work would have to be strong

Only the programmer will have a copyright on the source code he writes (and this extends to the compiled object code).

The NN weights are not copyrighted. Just numbers not encoding any expression.

The numbers are parameters in an expression - and constant parameters are part of the program.

The generated images presumably do not contain any expression coming from the programmer.
As far as I understand, typical AI image generators produce images that do not contain any expression contained in the training material.

Would be a very interesting case if it happened! :)

So the programmer, the person training the net, and the artists have no copyright on the generated images.

The operator MIGHT be able to claim a copyright on the generated image, namely if he is able to control the expression in the image (not its abstract content) through the textual prompt. In this case, the operator is an author using the AI as a tool. But the AI image generators I have been reading about do not seem to work as a tool but independently come up with expression of the more abstract concept/idea represented by the textual input, in which case there is no copyright of the operator.

I don't agree with this: if a rich man's instructions to a hired artist were, "Paint something that will look good on that wall", he's still commissioning the art, and he's still the owner of it and its copyright.

If there were doubt, he need only make a tiny change to the work of art to remove that doubt.

E.g. a photographer will typically have a copyright on a photo he takes because he uses his camera as a tool and is able to control at least some of the expression in the photo. However, if he has the original idea to give his camera to a monkey and let the monkey take a picture, then this original idea does not control the expression in the picture, and he won't have a copyright.

Hmmm... if he rewards the monkey with bananas for good work, then isn't he then commissioning the photograph? :)

This is different in the UK. According to s. 9(3) of the UK Copyright Act, "In the case of a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work which is computer-generated, the author shall be taken to be the person by whom the arrangements necessary for the creation of the work are undertaken". According to s. 178, a "computer-generated” work is "generated by computer in circumstances such that there is no human author of the work". It is not entirely clear to me who is the person "by whom the arrangements necessary for the creation of the work are undertaken", but I would guess it is the operator. So if an AI-generated image shows at least a tiny bit of originality, then the operator would seem to have a copyright on it, in the UK. (However, this provision might be in violation of the Berne Convention. I don't know if it has been tested in court.)

Good old Britain - ahead of the game (sometimes!). 8-)
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towforce
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Re: Stockfish: Our lawsuit against ChessBase

Post by towforce »

Maybe there's a business opportunity here: a product that converts NN weight files into methods/functions of popular computer languages, so that they end up fully embedded in the program. 8-)
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smatovic
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Re: Stockfish: Our lawsuit against ChessBase

Post by smatovic »

syzygy wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:17 pm ...
Thx for all the answers.

--
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Re: Stockfish: Our lawsuit against ChessBase

Post by dkappe »

towforce wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:42 pm Maybe there's a business opportunity here: a product that converts NN weight files into methods/functions of popular computer languages, so that they end up fully embedded in the program. 8-)
Anyone who has studied computer science (recursive function theory, for example) knows that data and code are interchangeable. But you can read the nn code (provided you have access to the source) and extract the weights without violating the copyright. Given the money involved in proprietary pretrained models, I think we’ll see new IP laws that protect them.
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Re: Stockfish: Our lawsuit against ChessBase

Post by noobpwnftw »

As programming languages getting to higher levels, sometimes you can prompt in natural languages and it compiles into a binary, now the binary is not copyrightable because the involvement of human creativity is not sufficient? Or it is a mathematical function too much?

Reminds me of some OISC machines where there is this one instruction that does it all, so all programs unless handwritten in that situation is not copyrightable or what?
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towforce
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Re: Stockfish: Our lawsuit against ChessBase

Post by towforce »

noobpwnftw wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 10:08 pm As programming languages getting to higher levels, sometimes you can prompt in natural languages and it compiles into a binary, now the binary is not copyrightable because the involvement of human creativity is not sufficient? Or it is a mathematical function too much?

Reminds me of some OISC machines where there is this one instruction that does it all, so all programs unless handwritten in that situation is not copyrightable or what?

There are two basic ways to do low code and no code:

* for no coding at all (assume the customer cannot code), the main approach is to choose and apply pre-written templates, maybe having a way to amend them in specified ways

* for customers who either can code and want to be more productive, or customers who can code a bit but don't know enough to complete a project, the best approach is probably to write the code for them, with the customer in overall control, and the software patiently working with them (maybe in a question and answer session) to get the code to do what the customer wants

In my opinion, ownership of the software written either way will still reside with the customer.
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Re: Stockfish: Our lawsuit against ChessBase

Post by noobpwnftw »

Like it or not, lawyers deal with such "immoral" things for a living. The definition of right and wrong varies with different laws, so I'm not sure whether it is relevant. I was suggesting that in certain situations people wish to get rid of their copyrights but can't really do it, while we are here discussing how certain things are not copyrightable of which I think they rightfully should be.
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Re: Stockfish: Our lawsuit against ChessBase

Post by Albert Silver »

noobpwnftw wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 4:20 am No, neural nets are not just weights, there is not a "the neural net" or a "the NNUE" that you could take for granted. The designs, the tooling, the driving code and the precise set of numbers that made it to work are all creative work therefore subject to copyrights. And it is implementation specific and not a mathematical theorem or ground truth, there are endless instances of them offering specific characteristics and/or performance.

In this forum, there are people who would like to argue that search function is also "solved", there exists only one right way to do it and therefore it is free for all to copy paste.

Claiming NNUE nets are not copyrightable IMO is similar to claiming Blues music are not copyrightable, ymmv.
Thank you
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Re: Stockfish: Our lawsuit against ChessBase

Post by noobpwnftw »

Albert Silver wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:26 pm
noobpwnftw wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 4:20 am No, neural nets are not just weights, there is not a "the neural net" or a "the NNUE" that you could take for granted. The designs, the tooling, the driving code and the precise set of numbers that made it to work are all creative work therefore subject to copyrights. And it is implementation specific and not a mathematical theorem or ground truth, there are endless instances of them offering specific characteristics and/or performance.

In this forum, there are people who would like to argue that search function is also "solved", there exists only one right way to do it and therefore it is free for all to copy paste.

Claiming NNUE nets are not copyrightable IMO is similar to claiming Blues music are not copyrightable, ymmv.
Thank you
You are welcome. With the lawsuit concluded, I would assume that you would now make your derivative work GPL compatible?

ChessBase took down your product, which I'd rather prefer they didn't.
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Re: Stockfish: Our lawsuit against ChessBase

Post by hgm »

syzygy wrote: Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:35 pmThe NN weights are not copyrighted. Just numbers not encoding any expression.
This seems questionable to me. Conventional object code also is just an ordered collection of numbers. So by this logic binaries of computer programs are not subject to copyright, and all of the GPL is just bollocks. A text stored in an electronic medium is just a collection of numbers. Or a JPEG encoded movie. But when you start to make those available for free download, I don't think you will get away in court with the argument that all you did was copy a collection of numbers. An NN is just a particular type of computer, and the collection of weights represents the program it executes. NNs can be used to store images (and then recall a particular one by showing it only a part of it). In this case it seems obvious to me that the NN weights would not have been able to shed off the copyright of the original image they can be asked to display. While all that was done is training the net on the images that it has learned to reproduce.