mmt Vs. Ovyron (G4 D5 BG2)

[jp]

OK, you might as well just quit. Zenmastur's certainly made his point, that you would benefit tremendously from a hardware upgrade.

As he has pointed out, this challenge has everything to do with playing chess. If it takes you days to find an optimal line of play in this setting, things can only be worse in "typical" positions, where engine evaluations are not clear-cut mate scores.

I'm less convinced now that Zenmastur's test is qualitatively the same and therefore makes his point.

If you want to prove White mates in N, you are (in most circumstances) forced to go through all of Black's defences. If you hypothetically have some special skill for pruning, it won't help you other than to find White's moves.

And while it seems to me better hardware will always be good, the question doesn't seem interesting, because there must be millions of people in the world who simply cannot upgrade hardware, whether or not Ovyron can.

[zullil]

OK, you might as well just quit. Zenmastur's certainly made his point, that you would benefit tremendously from a hardware upgrade.

As he has pointed out, this challenge has everything to do with playing chess. If it takes you days to find an optimal line of play in this setting, things can only be worse in "typical" positions, where engine evaluations are not clear-cut mate scores.

I'm less convinced now that Zenmastur's test is qualitatively the same and therefore makes his point.

If you want to prove White mates in N, you are (in most circumstances) forced to go through all of Black's defences. If you hypothetically have some special skill for pruning, it won't help you other than to find White's moves.

And while it seems to me better hardware will always be good, the question doesn't seem interesting, because there must be millions of people in the world who simply cannot upgrade hardware, whether or not Ovyron can.

To find a best line of play, one always needs to consider all possible defenses by the opponent. Zenmastur's test simply has the advantage of giving a very clear meaning to "best" (i.e., mating in a minimal number of moves) and also allowing for precise evaluations of all leaf positions (as mate-in-N).Why would some "special skill for pruning" not also apply here?

[Ovyron]

To find a best line of play, one always needs to consider all possible defenses by the opponent.

I checked all defenses of the opponent in 1.5 days, leading to a mate in 35 that black couldn't delay further, in a normal game that would have been enough. In the test white can mate faster so I have to try different white moves that could mate faster, and check for all possible defenses on those, even though in a normal game, once you have found a win, you don't care how fast it is ("fast" in number of moves, since reducing them takes time.)

BTW, I could afford better hardware, sure. I have to because I don't know how long my CPU will last, it's getting 10 years old this year, and there's no way I'm going back to my single CPU 32bit. But I'll make the jump because I'll have no other alternative, not because I want to. And if it lasts another 10 years, well, there's things I don't have yet that I'm considering buying instead (such as... giants speakers? Yeah, my neighbors sometimes are very noisy with theirs, though apparently they rent them for parties. Something I can't do with my hardware is listening to music at that level, or listening to movies at the level of cinema's speakers, so it'd make sense to upgrade those.)

[Ovyron]

1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4 3. c4 c6 4. Qb3 e6 5. Qxb7 Nd7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. cxd5 exd5 8. d4 Rb8 9. Qa6 Rb6 10. Qd3 Ng6 11. h3 Be6 12. Nf3 Bd6 13. h4 h5 14. b3 Nf6 15. Bg5 O-O 16. e3 Re8 17. Kf1 Bg4 18. Ne1 Bb4 19. Na4 Rb8 20. Nc2 Be7 21. f3 Be6 22. Nc5 Bc8 23. Kf2 Nd7 24. Ne6 Qa5 25. Bxe7 Rxe7 26. b4 Qb6 27. Ng5 Ba6 28. Qa3 Rbe8 29. Bf1 Bxf1 30. Raxf1 Qc7 31. Qd3

Now on the -2.40s

And I agree with Uri, from the human perspective these positions don't seem won for black, and the positions on my game against Harvey didn't look won for black, that's a reason I believed I could save 1.g4...

1. g4 d5 2. Bg2 Bxg4 3. c4 c6 4. Qb3 e6 5. Qxb7 Nd7 6. Nc3 Ne7 7. cxd5 exd5 8. d4 Rb8 9. Qa6 Rb6 10. Qd3 Ng6 11. h3 Be6 12. Nf3 Bd6 13. h4 h5 14. b3 Nf6 15. Bg5 O-O 16. e3 Re8 17. Kf1 Bg4 18. Ne1 Bb4 19. Na4 Rb8 20. Nc2 Be7 21. f3 Be6 22. Nc5 Bc8 23. Kf2 Nd7 24. Ne6 Qa5 25. Bxe7 Rxe7 26. b4 Qb6 27. Ng5 Ba6 28. Qa3 Rbe8 29. Bf1 Bxf1 30. Raxf1 Qc7 31. Qd3 a5

[d]4r1k1/2qnrpp1/2p3n1/p2p2Np/1P1P3P/3QPP2/P1N2K2/5R1R w - -

[zullil]

To find a best line of play, one always needs to consider all possible defenses by the opponent.

I checked all defenses of the opponent in 1.5 days, leading to a mate in 35 that black couldn't delay further

OK, please post your mate-in-35 line so it can be checked for correctness. You can do this while still working to meet Zenmastur's challenge.

[Ovyron]

It has since been overwritten with better lines

Oh but these aren't empty claims, I have DAT files from the learning engine that show what the engine has learned, the engine checks the mates for correctness and writes them to the files, I only need to play the lines into it.

If you can read DAT files I can share the files so you see the mates I have solved (that would be shown by the engine immediately). What I can't do is sharing the engine that uses these files, because it's a Stockfish derivative, and I don't have the source, so sharing it would violate its GPL. But if you convince them to change their license then I have no problems sharing the engine either (though I'd still ask the programmer what they think about this.)

[Uri Blass]

It has since been overwritten with better lines

Oh but these aren't empty claims, I have DAT files from the learning engine that show what the engine has learned, the engine checks the mates for correctness and writes them to the files, I only need to play the lines into it.

If you can read DAT files I can share the files so you see the mates I have solved (that would be shown by the engine immediately). What I can't do is sharing the engine that uses these files, because it's a Stockfish derivative, and I don't have the source, so sharing it would violate its GPL. But if you convince them to change their license then I have no problems sharing the engine either (though I'd still ask the programmer what they think about this.)

I do not understand why you need to post dat files for what zulil asked you.

Some line like 1.Rh8+ Kf7 2.Rf1+ Qf5 3.Rxf5 mate is enough in case of mate in 3 and you do not need to show that white has also mate next move after 2...Qf6 that is also possible.

Of course it is not mate in 3 so 3.Rxf5 is not mate but the idea is simply to post a single line when white may have faster mate but if black does not follow the single line you then white can also mate in at most 35 moves.

[Alayan]

I guess that black is winning because I trust better engines but
the question is not for the reason that komodo's evaluation is low but for the reason that Ethereal's evaluation or stockfish's evaluation is so high.

When I was surprised by Komodo's eval, it was from an engine perspective. Ethereal is weaker but hated white's position right away and stuck with this assessment after billions of nodes. And both SF and Leela are beyond -2 too.

I had a look at the Stockfish Evaluation Guide ; as SF's static eval was also below -2. There are some small things, like the rooks on open file, there is a PSQT bonus because black pieces are on what are usually better squares, and there is a big penalty coming from the white king being more exposed with an open g-file.

Obviously, what drives the assessment of a position at depth 30 or 40 depends on the leaf nodes, but white's worse king safety and more awkward piece placements are the key issues.

Of course from a human perspective, I would have no idea what to do as black to convert what looks like a minor advantage only to my eye.

[Ovyron]

Of course it is not mate in 3 so 3.Rxf5 is not mate but the idea is simply to post a single line when white may have faster mate but if black does not follow the single line you then white can also mate in at most 35 moves.

But I didn't save the line, and it has been overwritten to a mate in 34 already. Some other mate in 35 line wouldn't work because Zullil wants to see the one that I found in 1.5 days, this mate in 34 was found after 17 days. And, anyway, I'm checking these lines for correctness myself, their correctness is irrelevant because the only correctness that matters is from the line I'll send for the challenge. Zullil kind of spoiled the challenge after announcing a mate in 28 (so I know what not to send), but I have not found a line to send anyway (all the lines I've seen could be improved trivially. Who knows if I'll make it to 28.)

[Ovyron]

Of course from a human perspective, I would have no idea what to do as black to convert what looks like a minor advantage only to my eye.

Yes, and that applies all the way to this position:

1. g4 d5

[d]rnbqkbnr/ppp1pppp/8/3p4/6P1/8/PPPPPP1P/RNBQKBNR w KQkq -

Where black's minor advantage seems to be enough to win for all white's defenses. Incredible!