Yeah, you don't get it....Graham Banks wrote:That's an intelligent response.Terry McCracken wrote:More mindless ad hominems! One get's the impression you can't do better!Graham Banks wrote:You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.Terry McCracken wrote:This is the place for such things, open and honest!Graham Banks wrote:Primarily because of the way you've conducted your investigation as has been explained several times previously.kranium wrote:I repeat my question:
if Stelka is known to be a clone of Rybka, (stated as such in Wikipedia, confirmed by Vas himself, w/ apparent agreement by CEGT and CCRL)
and Strelka is known to have so much Fruit code in it...
isn't it logical, fair, and correct to question the legitimacy of both programs?
and if it is logical, fair, and correct to do so...
why have Christophe T., Bob H., Zach W., myself and others come under such harsh attack for doing so?
AFAIC, many IQ's are in the maximum state of entropy!
On escaping copyright by rewriting everything
Moderator: Ras
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Terry McCracken
- Posts: 16465
- Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:16 am
- Location: Canada
Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything
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GenoM
- Posts: 914
- Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:46 pm
- Location: Plovdiv, Bulgaria
- Full name: Evgenii Manev
Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything
No girl is drown, Graham, open your eyes.Graham Banks wrote:You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.Terry McCracken wrote:This is the place for such things, open and honest!Graham Banks wrote:Primarily because of the way you've conducted your investigation as has been explained several times previously.kranium wrote:I repeat my question:
if Stelka is known to be a clone of Rybka, (stated as such in Wikipedia, confirmed by Vas himself, w/ apparent agreement by CEGT and CCRL)
and Strelka is known to have so much Fruit code in it...
isn't it logical, fair, and correct to question the legitimacy of both programs?
and if it is logical, fair, and correct to do so...
why have Christophe T., Bob H., Zach W., myself and others come under such harsh attack for doing so?
take it easy 
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Graham Banks
- Posts: 44914
- Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:52 am
- Location: Auckland, NZ
Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything
GenoM wrote:No girl is drown, Graham, open your eyes.Graham Banks wrote:You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.Terry McCracken wrote:This is the place for such things, open and honest!Graham Banks wrote:Primarily because of the way you've conducted your investigation as has been explained several times previously.kranium wrote:I repeat my question:
if Stelka is known to be a clone of Rybka, (stated as such in Wikipedia, confirmed by Vas himself, w/ apparent agreement by CEGT and CCRL)
and Strelka is known to have so much Fruit code in it...
isn't it logical, fair, and correct to question the legitimacy of both programs?
and if it is logical, fair, and correct to do so...
why have Christophe T., Bob H., Zach W., myself and others come under such harsh attack for doing so?
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Terry McCracken
- Posts: 16465
- Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:16 am
- Location: Canada
Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything
He's blinded with all that wool in his eyes.GenoM wrote:No girl is drawn, Graham, open your eyes.Graham Banks wrote:You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.Terry McCracken wrote:This is the place for such things, open and honest!Graham Banks wrote:Primarily because of the way you've conducted your investigation as has been explained several times previously.kranium wrote:I repeat my question:
if Stelka is known to be a clone of Rybka, (stated as such in Wikipedia, confirmed by Vas himself, w/ apparent agreement by CEGT and CCRL)
and Strelka is known to have so much Fruit code in it...
isn't it logical, fair, and correct to question the legitimacy of both programs?
and if it is logical, fair, and correct to do so...
why have Christophe T., Bob H., Zach W., myself and others come under such harsh attack for doing so?
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Zach Wegner
- Posts: 1922
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:51 am
- Location: Earth
Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything
Then why do you say that people have "irreparably damaged" reputations? You say that we are burning our bridges, when you don't even know all the facts.Graham Banks wrote:You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.
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Terry McCracken
- Posts: 16465
- Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:16 am
- Location: Canada
Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/entropyGraham Banks wrote:GenoM wrote:No girl is drown, Graham, open your eyes.Graham Banks wrote:You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.Terry McCracken wrote:This is the place for such things, open and honest!Graham Banks wrote:Primarily because of the way you've conducted your investigation as has been explained several times previously.kranium wrote:I repeat my question:
if Stelka is known to be a clone of Rybka, (stated as such in Wikipedia, confirmed by Vas himself, w/ apparent agreement by CEGT and CCRL)
and Strelka is known to have so much Fruit code in it...
isn't it logical, fair, and correct to question the legitimacy of both programs?
and if it is logical, fair, and correct to do so...
why have Christophe T., Bob H., Zach W., myself and others come under such harsh attack for doing so?Is that wide enough?
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Terry McCracken
- Posts: 16465
- Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:16 am
- Location: Canada
Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything
Well said!Zach Wegner wrote:Then why do you say that people have "irreparably damaged" reputations? You say that we are burning our bridges, when you don't even know all the facts.Graham Banks wrote:You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.
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Graham Banks
- Posts: 44914
- Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:52 am
- Location: Auckland, NZ
Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything
Hi Zach,Zach Wegner wrote:Then why do you say that people have "irreparably damaged" reputations? You say that we are burning our bridges, when you don't even know all the facts.Graham Banks wrote:You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.
I think that it's the way this whole thing has been done that has upset many people.
You're right in that you've not published your full conclusions yet, but strong insinuations were made early, before you had a watertight case to back it up.
Vas's reputation plus his engine have been unnecessarily sullied by doing so.
That's what I meant by my reference to "not drowning the girl before you've determined she's a witch".
The other point I've made is that despite such noises being made about other top engines well before this case (and not by me as I've also said), Rybka seems to have been singled out for the special attention.
Other circumstances such as the timing of the investigation (Rybka now being so far clear at the top plus the free release of Rybka 2.2), the comments made implying that the later commercial versions of Rybka probably also need to be picked apart, not ruling out calls for bans from tournaments, etc may well have nothing to do with the whole issue, but these things add up to give an impression.
However, I have no doubt that you're doing what you see is right. I hope that it's all worth it.
And I'll be among the first to eat humble pie and congratulate you if you come up with 100% proof of your claims.
Good luck, Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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Michael Sherwin
- Posts: 3196
- Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 3:00 am
- Location: WY, USA
- Full name: Michael Sherwin
Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything
Hi Graham,Graham Banks wrote:You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.Terry McCracken wrote:This is the place for such things, open and honest!Graham Banks wrote:Primarily because of the way you've conducted your investigation as has been explained several times previously.kranium wrote:I repeat my question:
if Stelka is known to be a clone of Rybka, (stated as such in Wikipedia, confirmed by Vas himself, w/ apparent agreement by CEGT and CCRL)
and Strelka is known to have so much Fruit code in it...
isn't it logical, fair, and correct to question the legitimacy of both programs?
and if it is logical, fair, and correct to do so...
why have Christophe T., Bob H., Zach W., myself and others come under such harsh attack for doing so?
Not to be picky, but,
If you are on a sidewalk and the covid goes beep beep
Just step aside or you might have a bit of heat
Covid covid runs through the town all day
Can the people ever change their ways
Sherwin the covid's after you
Sherwin if it catches you you're through
Just step aside or you might have a bit of heat
Covid covid runs through the town all day
Can the people ever change their ways
Sherwin the covid's after you
Sherwin if it catches you you're through
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ozziejoe
- Posts: 811
- Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:07 pm
Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything
Graham, I agree with your position here, and I am glad you are stating it.
I am sure Zach and other folks are busily gathering evidence, and I look forward to a presentation of this evidence.
If, as someone else suggested, only about .1% of code looks similar to fruit, then i would not think that automatically warrents the term "plagerism" or justifies suggesting Vas is a plagerist. It depends on the importance of the code to playing performance, the exactness of the match, and the extent the other 99.9% of the code is plagerized.
say a university student submitted a piece of work that was absolutely brilliant. If 1 in 1000 lines were not properly cited or were taken from another source, I would not automatically classify the work as plaggerism . I would want to know the importance of the copied line (is it e= mc2, for example), its centrality to the quality of the thesis, etc.
I'd probably tell the student, "look you shouldn't copy this line, you should paraphrase it and cite it. however, overall your work has much that is original and brilliant in it"
As a university lecturer, I would not be allowed to say a student had plaggerized until i had built a very clear case and this case was put through various channels for evaluation. I would be sued if I accused someone of plagirism before I had built a case. Actually, I am aware of one academic colleague who did accuse a student of plagerism and is now being sued for ti.
So the plagerism charge is very serious. The case needs to be made before the term "plagerism" is used, not after.
Anyway, I look forward to the evidence Zach and others are putting together. I am very curious to see rybka crosses the boundary into plagerism
best
Joseph
I am sure Zach and other folks are busily gathering evidence, and I look forward to a presentation of this evidence.
If, as someone else suggested, only about .1% of code looks similar to fruit, then i would not think that automatically warrents the term "plagerism" or justifies suggesting Vas is a plagerist. It depends on the importance of the code to playing performance, the exactness of the match, and the extent the other 99.9% of the code is plagerized.
say a university student submitted a piece of work that was absolutely brilliant. If 1 in 1000 lines were not properly cited or were taken from another source, I would not automatically classify the work as plaggerism . I would want to know the importance of the copied line (is it e= mc2, for example), its centrality to the quality of the thesis, etc.
I'd probably tell the student, "look you shouldn't copy this line, you should paraphrase it and cite it. however, overall your work has much that is original and brilliant in it"
As a university lecturer, I would not be allowed to say a student had plaggerized until i had built a very clear case and this case was put through various channels for evaluation. I would be sued if I accused someone of plagirism before I had built a case. Actually, I am aware of one academic colleague who did accuse a student of plagerism and is now being sued for ti.
So the plagerism charge is very serious. The case needs to be made before the term "plagerism" is used, not after.
Anyway, I look forward to the evidence Zach and others are putting together. I am very curious to see rybka crosses the boundary into plagerism
best
Joseph