On escaping copyright by rewriting everything

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Terry McCracken
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Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything

Post by Terry McCracken »

Graham Banks wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
kranium wrote:I repeat my question:

if Stelka is known to be a clone of Rybka, (stated as such in Wikipedia, confirmed by Vas himself, w/ apparent agreement by CEGT and CCRL)

and Strelka is known to have so much Fruit code in it...
isn't it logical, fair, and correct to question the legitimacy of both programs?

and if it is logical, fair, and correct to do so...
why have Christophe T., Bob H., Zach W., myself and others come under such harsh attack for doing so?
Primarily because of the way you've conducted your investigation as has been explained several times previously.
This is the place for such things, open and honest!
You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.
More mindless ad hominems! One get's the impression you can't do better!

AFAIC, many IQ's are in the maximum state of entropy!
That's an intelligent response. :lol:
Yeah, you don't get it.... :roll:
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GenoM
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Full name: Evgenii Manev

Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything

Post by GenoM »

Graham Banks wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
kranium wrote:I repeat my question:

if Stelka is known to be a clone of Rybka, (stated as such in Wikipedia, confirmed by Vas himself, w/ apparent agreement by CEGT and CCRL)

and Strelka is known to have so much Fruit code in it...
isn't it logical, fair, and correct to question the legitimacy of both programs?

and if it is logical, fair, and correct to do so...
why have Christophe T., Bob H., Zach W., myself and others come under such harsh attack for doing so?
Primarily because of the way you've conducted your investigation as has been explained several times previously.
This is the place for such things, open and honest!
You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.
No girl is drown, Graham, open your eyes.
take it easy :)
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Graham Banks
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Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything

Post by Graham Banks »

GenoM wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
kranium wrote:I repeat my question:

if Stelka is known to be a clone of Rybka, (stated as such in Wikipedia, confirmed by Vas himself, w/ apparent agreement by CEGT and CCRL)

and Strelka is known to have so much Fruit code in it...
isn't it logical, fair, and correct to question the legitimacy of both programs?

and if it is logical, fair, and correct to do so...
why have Christophe T., Bob H., Zach W., myself and others come under such harsh attack for doing so?
Primarily because of the way you've conducted your investigation as has been explained several times previously.
This is the place for such things, open and honest!
You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.
No girl is drown, Graham, open your eyes.
:shock: Is that wide enough?
gbanksnz at gmail.com
Terry McCracken
Posts: 16465
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:16 am
Location: Canada

Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything

Post by Terry McCracken »

GenoM wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
kranium wrote:I repeat my question:

if Stelka is known to be a clone of Rybka, (stated as such in Wikipedia, confirmed by Vas himself, w/ apparent agreement by CEGT and CCRL)

and Strelka is known to have so much Fruit code in it...
isn't it logical, fair, and correct to question the legitimacy of both programs?

and if it is logical, fair, and correct to do so...
why have Christophe T., Bob H., Zach W., myself and others come under such harsh attack for doing so?
Primarily because of the way you've conducted your investigation as has been explained several times previously.
This is the place for such things, open and honest!
You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.
No girl is drawn, Graham, open your eyes.
He's blinded with all that wool in his eyes.
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Zach Wegner
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Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything

Post by Zach Wegner »

Graham Banks wrote:You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.
Then why do you say that people have "irreparably damaged" reputations? You say that we are burning our bridges, when you don't even know all the facts.
Terry McCracken
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Location: Canada

Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything

Post by Terry McCracken »

Graham Banks wrote:
GenoM wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
kranium wrote:I repeat my question:

if Stelka is known to be a clone of Rybka, (stated as such in Wikipedia, confirmed by Vas himself, w/ apparent agreement by CEGT and CCRL)

and Strelka is known to have so much Fruit code in it...
isn't it logical, fair, and correct to question the legitimacy of both programs?

and if it is logical, fair, and correct to do so...
why have Christophe T., Bob H., Zach W., myself and others come under such harsh attack for doing so?
Primarily because of the way you've conducted your investigation as has been explained several times previously.
This is the place for such things, open and honest!
You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.
No girl is drown, Graham, open your eyes.
:shock: Is that wide enough?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/entropy
Terry McCracken
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Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything

Post by Terry McCracken »

Zach Wegner wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.
Then why do you say that people have "irreparably damaged" reputations? You say that we are burning our bridges, when you don't even know all the facts.
Well said!
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Graham Banks
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Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything

Post by Graham Banks »

Zach Wegner wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.
Then why do you say that people have "irreparably damaged" reputations? You say that we are burning our bridges, when you don't even know all the facts.
Hi Zach,

I think that it's the way this whole thing has been done that has upset many people.

You're right in that you've not published your full conclusions yet, but strong insinuations were made early, before you had a watertight case to back it up.
Vas's reputation plus his engine have been unnecessarily sullied by doing so.
That's what I meant by my reference to "not drowning the girl before you've determined she's a witch".

The other point I've made is that despite such noises being made about other top engines well before this case (and not by me as I've also said), Rybka seems to have been singled out for the special attention.
Other circumstances such as the timing of the investigation (Rybka now being so far clear at the top plus the free release of Rybka 2.2), the comments made implying that the later commercial versions of Rybka probably also need to be picked apart, not ruling out calls for bans from tournaments, etc may well have nothing to do with the whole issue, but these things add up to give an impression.

However, I have no doubt that you're doing what you see is right. I hope that it's all worth it.
And I'll be among the first to eat humble pie and congratulate you if you come up with 100% proof of your claims.

Good luck, Graham.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
Michael Sherwin
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Full name: Michael Sherwin

Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything

Post by Michael Sherwin »

Graham Banks wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
kranium wrote:I repeat my question:

if Stelka is known to be a clone of Rybka, (stated as such in Wikipedia, confirmed by Vas himself, w/ apparent agreement by CEGT and CCRL)

and Strelka is known to have so much Fruit code in it...
isn't it logical, fair, and correct to question the legitimacy of both programs?

and if it is logical, fair, and correct to do so...
why have Christophe T., Bob H., Zach W., myself and others come under such harsh attack for doing so?
Primarily because of the way you've conducted your investigation as has been explained several times previously.
This is the place for such things, open and honest!
You don't drown the girl before it's determined she's a witch.
Hi Graham,

Not to be picky, but, :arrow: the girl is drown to prove that she is not a witch. If she rises to the top, because of her witch powers, then she is burned. Either way, the girl is dead! :twisted:
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ozziejoe
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Re: On escaping copyright by rewriting everything

Post by ozziejoe »

Graham, I agree with your position here, and I am glad you are stating it.

I am sure Zach and other folks are busily gathering evidence, and I look forward to a presentation of this evidence.

If, as someone else suggested, only about .1% of code looks similar to fruit, then i would not think that automatically warrents the term "plagerism" or justifies suggesting Vas is a plagerist. It depends on the importance of the code to playing performance, the exactness of the match, and the extent the other 99.9% of the code is plagerized.

say a university student submitted a piece of work that was absolutely brilliant. If 1 in 1000 lines were not properly cited or were taken from another source, I would not automatically classify the work as plaggerism . I would want to know the importance of the copied line (is it e= mc2, for example), its centrality to the quality of the thesis, etc.

I'd probably tell the student, "look you shouldn't copy this line, you should paraphrase it and cite it. however, overall your work has much that is original and brilliant in it"

As a university lecturer, I would not be allowed to say a student had plaggerized until i had built a very clear case and this case was put through various channels for evaluation. I would be sued if I accused someone of plagirism before I had built a case. Actually, I am aware of one academic colleague who did accuse a student of plagerism and is now being sued for ti.

So the plagerism charge is very serious. The case needs to be made before the term "plagerism" is used, not after.


Anyway, I look forward to the evidence Zach and others are putting together. I am very curious to see rybka crosses the boundary into plagerism

best
Joseph