ICC for CCT11

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Rolf
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Re: ICC for CCT11

Post by Rolf »

bob wrote: It wasnt a "fake" since it obviously existed, and beat the jerk in front of a lot of people. This was a major development project. It was completed _just_ prior to the 1997 match. it would be hard to play games with something that doesn't yet exist. We won the 1983 WCCC with a new parallel program, on a prototype parallel machine (Cray XMP), and while I was driving to NYC from Hattiesburg MS (A 24 hour drive) Harry was in Mendota Heights at Cray trying to get the program to work correctly as we had found a problem in Cray's multitasking library that was causing us to hang. We played round 1 of that tournament, never having played a complete game with that hardware/software. DB2 was completed within a couple of weeks of playing Kasparov. It would have been a headache to play games and get them to him. Not that they should have done that. I doubt Kasparov sent them information that might reveal part of _his_ preparation for the match either..

This is all crap. Coming from your head.
Bob, are you now completely resistent against facts? First you identify yourself with a machine, now you offer your own life data as proof for the honesty of your IBM friends.

GM Benjamin the official member of the DB2 team has promissed on stage in 1997 during the match, that he would give us all the games for example he had played against the machine. What have you to say in his defence when it's a fact that he didnt give us what he had promised?

What has Harry and what he did to do with anything in the 1997 show event?

Talk about this topic and simply show up with your defense and stop insulting people whose arguments you want to ignore. Simply behave as a role model in computerchess.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
bob
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Re: ICC for CCT11

Post by bob »

Rolf wrote:
bob wrote: It wasnt a "fake" since it obviously existed, and beat the jerk in front of a lot of people. This was a major development project. It was completed _just_ prior to the 1997 match. it would be hard to play games with something that doesn't yet exist. We won the 1983 WCCC with a new parallel program, on a prototype parallel machine (Cray XMP), and while I was driving to NYC from Hattiesburg MS (A 24 hour drive) Harry was in Mendota Heights at Cray trying to get the program to work correctly as we had found a problem in Cray's multitasking library that was causing us to hang. We played round 1 of that tournament, never having played a complete game with that hardware/software. DB2 was completed within a couple of weeks of playing Kasparov. It would have been a headache to play games and get them to him. Not that they should have done that. I doubt Kasparov sent them information that might reveal part of _his_ preparation for the match either..

This is all crap. Coming from your head.
Bob, are you now completely resistent against facts? First you identify yourself with a machine, now you offer your own life data as proof for the honesty of your IBM friends.
As is usual in these cases, I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't "identify myself with a machine". I don't live vicariously through a chess program. I've known the DB guys since 1985, and yes I believe in their honesty.


GM Benjamin the official member of the DB2 team has promissed on stage in 1997 during the match, that he would give us all the games for example he had played against the machine. What have you to say in his defence when it's a fact that he didnt give us what he had promised?
What would be the point? The genie was out of the bottle. The "jerk" had already made his nonsensical claims. Why would _anybody_ at IBM give him _anything_ after the ugly statements he made? Why would any of them bother to pee on him if he was on fire???


What has Harry and what he did to do with anything in the 1997 show event?

Talk about this topic and simply show up with your defense and stop insulting people whose arguments you want to ignore. Simply behave as a role model in computerchess.
There's nothing to say. Kasparov lost against deep blue. Then he lost again by showing the world he was a jerk. End of story and everyone's moved on. Or everyone except you it would seem...
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Rolf
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Re: ICC for CCT11

Post by Rolf »

bob wrote: What would be the point? The genie was out of the bottle. The "jerk" had already made his nonsensical claims. Why would _anybody_ at IBM give him _anything_ after the ugly statements he made? Why would any of them bother to pee on him if he was on fire???
Close every opening that could let pass the information and play dumb. The point is that I accuse Benjamin of having lied to the public, not Kasparov alone. This is just a symbolic proof for dishonesty.

The greatest dishonesty however was and still is the unexcused and unexcusable mean manner the team had treated Kasparov with.

Let me give the readers an easy example. Say sicentists want to find out in a project if their creation can do better than a certain human expert and they invite the guy and have everything under control. Of course also the guy gets his bonusses because it all rolls on in public.

Suddenly the client gets disturbed and he utters some outlandish theories. All understandable and caused by the situation as such and NOT the guy's warfare against his hosts!

This is the crucial moment where every scientist, team no matter how being payed by companies, would do everything the client gets back into normal mode, because, reflect it yourself, if they cant succeed in calming him down, what is the whole exihibition worth?? No matter what they would find out would that speak for the class of their creation that they wanted to test? Of course not. This is such a basic in science and in logic too BTW that this cant be denied or ignored.

Fact is the IBM team mistreated Kasparov with impoliteness so that he, justified or not, lost his stamina. So that the end results are in vain.

Period.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
bob
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Re: ICC for CCT11

Post by bob »

Rolf wrote:
bob wrote: What would be the point? The genie was out of the bottle. The "jerk" had already made his nonsensical claims. Why would _anybody_ at IBM give him _anything_ after the ugly statements he made? Why would any of them bother to pee on him if he was on fire???
Close every opening that could let pass the information and play dumb. The point is that I accuse Benjamin of having lied to the public, not Kasparov alone. This is just a symbolic proof for dishonesty.

The greatest dishonesty however was and still is the unexcused and unexcusable mean manner the team had treated Kasparov with.

Let me give the readers an easy example. Say sicentists want to find out in a project if their creation can do better than a certain human expert and they invite the guy and have everything under control. Of course also the guy gets his bonusses because it all rolls on in public.

Suddenly the client gets disturbed and he utters some outlandish theories. All understandable and caused by the situation as such and NOT the guy's warfare against his hosts!

This is the crucial moment where every scientist, team no matter how being payed by companies, would do everything the client gets back into normal mode, because, reflect it yourself, if they cant succeed in calming him down, what is the whole exihibition worth?? No matter what they would find out would that speak for the class of their creation that they wanted to test? Of course not. This is such a basic in science and in logic too BTW that this cant be denied or ignored.

Fact is the IBM team mistreated Kasparov with impoliteness so that he, justified or not, lost his stamina. So that the end results are in vain.

Period.
Again, actual course of events.

kasparov lost

kasparov acted like a jerk

To expect IBM to bend over and grab their ankles to appease him asks far too much. Kasparov made a fortune from IBM playing both matches. It's not like he was dragged to the board, screaming Nooooo! and made to play the match...
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Rolf
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Re: ICC for CCT11

Post by Rolf »

bob wrote:Again, actual course of events.

kasparov lost

kasparov acted like a jerk

To expect IBM to bend over and grab their ankles to appease him asks far too much. Kasparov made a fortune from IBM playing both matches. It's not like he was dragged to the board, screaming Nooooo! and made to play the match...
And how this does look like in the real world (of chess) outside provincial USA is absolutely uninteresting for the average insensible American. But to the outside, the small rest of this world, this looks different and this is why the USA is seen in offside. Why should I even care for a moment. Ridiculous.

BTW, Bob, you are focussed on money. Honor is more important worldwide. Of course you can win dirtty, but you lose it otherwise.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
bob
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Re: ICC for CCT11

Post by bob »

Rolf wrote:
bob wrote:Again, actual course of events.

kasparov lost

kasparov acted like a jerk

To expect IBM to bend over and grab their ankles to appease him asks far too much. Kasparov made a fortune from IBM playing both matches. It's not like he was dragged to the board, screaming Nooooo! and made to play the match...
And how this does look like in the real world (of chess) outside provincial USA is absolutely uninteresting for the average insensible American. But to the outside, the small rest of this world, this looks different and this is why the USA is seen in offside. Why should I even care for a moment. Ridiculous.

BTW, Bob, you are focussed on money. Honor is more important worldwide. Of course you can win dirtty, but you lose it otherwise.
I am focused on "money"? When money has not been mentioned one time anywhere in this discussion?

I am more focused on the fact that you need some sort of medication change to get you back out of your imaginary world and into the real one. Nobody won anything "dirty". The only "dirty" thing in the 1997 Kasparov-DB match was Kasparov's behaviour.
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Rolf
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Re: ICC for CCT11

Post by Rolf »

bob wrote:
Rolf wrote:
bob wrote:Again, actual course of events.

kasparov lost

kasparov acted like a jerk

To expect IBM to bend over and grab their ankles to appease him asks far too much. Kasparov made a fortune from IBM playing both matches. It's not like he was dragged to the board, screaming Nooooo! and made to play the match...
And how this does look like in the real world (of chess) outside provincial USA is absolutely uninteresting for the average insensible American. But to the outside, the small rest of this world, this looks different and this is why the USA is seen in offside. Why should I even care for a moment. Ridiculous.

BTW, Bob, you are focussed on money. Honor is more important worldwide. Of course you can win dirtty, but you lose it otherwise.
I am focused on "money"? When money has not been mentioned one time anywhere in this discussion?

I am more focused on the fact that you need some sort of medication change to get you back out of your imaginary world and into the real one. Nobody won anything "dirty". The only "dirty" thing in the 1997 Kasparov-DB match was Kasparov's behaviour.
Why else should the IBM guys have played dirty to win this Prize? Your memory sucks. You have mentioned the big bucks Kasparov should have won through the encounter with IBM.

But for your memory as such: you are a smart technician while Kasparov is a genius in chess. You aint no chess master in any respect, you are a patzer like almost all here in CC, me included. Kasparov is cultured and very educated while you are bound to your American English alone and you are also very impolite in your manners. So, just dont try to figure out what Kasparov is like. As to your science. You dont even understand where the team should have mistreated their client. But that's not your fault since you've never learned what scientific mistreating of your client in an experimental setting really means. I just mentioned it for our readers.

Just because Kasparov is as a genius still a human being and not a robot, and because he also has faults caused by his hot blooded temper plus his funny superstition (like many chessplayers), therefore you think you are entitled to call this genius asshole and jerk. But that speaks more about your lack of good breeding or whatever too much American temper. And that speaks against practically the whole DB2 team.

That is so basic and it still will be analysed and discussed in future centuries. Tenor will be that the mistreatment of Kasparov by the IBM teamsters caused the players of human chess to avoid too much contact with the screwy tech guys who constantly confused their importance with the power of their hardware. It's insulting mother nature herself if engineers of cars disrespect the beauty of a tiger or if programmers in chess disrespect the human brain of chess masters.
-Popper and Lakatos are good but I'm stuck on Leibowitz
bob
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Re: ICC for CCT11

Post by bob »

Rolf wrote:
bob wrote:
Rolf wrote:
bob wrote:Again, actual course of events.

kasparov lost

kasparov acted like a jerk

To expect IBM to bend over and grab their ankles to appease him asks far too much. Kasparov made a fortune from IBM playing both matches. It's not like he was dragged to the board, screaming Nooooo! and made to play the match...
And how this does look like in the real world (of chess) outside provincial USA is absolutely uninteresting for the average insensible American. But to the outside, the small rest of this world, this looks different and this is why the USA is seen in offside. Why should I even care for a moment. Ridiculous.

BTW, Bob, you are focussed on money. Honor is more important worldwide. Of course you can win dirtty, but you lose it otherwise.
I am focused on "money"? When money has not been mentioned one time anywhere in this discussion?

I am more focused on the fact that you need some sort of medication change to get you back out of your imaginary world and into the real one. Nobody won anything "dirty". The only "dirty" thing in the 1997 Kasparov-DB match was Kasparov's behaviour.
Why else should the IBM guys have played dirty to win this Prize? Your memory sucks. You have mentioned the big bucks Kasparov should have won through the encounter with IBM.
"Should have?" He _did_ win big bucks. First in 1996, and then again in 1997. He didn't win the match in 1997, but he made more money in a week than most of us make in 5 years... So he didn't exactly "get cheated".


But for your memory as such: you are a smart technician while Kasparov is a genius in chess. You aint no chess master in any respect, you are a patzer like almost all here in CC, me included. Kasparov is cultured and very educated while you are bound to your American English alone and you are also very impolite in your manners. So, just dont try to figure out what Kasparov is like.
I don't have to "try to figure out what Kasparov is like." He got up on a stage and showed the _entire world_ what he is. A jerk. A big one.

As to your science. You dont even understand where the team should have mistreated their client. But that's not your fault since you've never learned what scientific mistreating of your client in an experimental setting really means. I just mentioned it for our readers.
Your imagination is fertile, I give you credit for that. But your reasoning is badly flawed. And has been for over 10 years now on this topic.



Just because Kasparov is as a genius still a human being and not a robot, and because he also has faults caused by his hot blooded temper plus his funny superstition (like many chessplayers), therefore you think you are entitled to call this genius asshole and jerk. But that speaks more about your lack of good breeding or whatever too much American temper. And that speaks against practically the whole DB2 team.
Only in Rolf-land. Not in the real world. Anyone that has ever met any of the deep blue team, and there are _many_ of us, can verify that they are all class acts, highly intelligent, well-mannered, and personable. I've always been quite happy to call them "friends" even if we have not talked in several years now.


That is so basic and it still will be analysed and discussed in future centuries. Tenor will be that the mistreatment of Kasparov by the IBM teamsters caused the players of human chess to avoid too much contact with the screwy tech guys who constantly confused their importance with the power of their hardware. It's insulting mother nature herself if engineers of cars disrespect the beauty of a tiger or if programmers in chess disrespect the human brain of chess masters.
This is not even talked about any longer _today_ much less in future centuries. Nobody cares. Old news. Water under the bridge. History.

Etc.

I only see one person on the planet continually bringing this up. I suspect a medication change would end the subject forever since _nobody_ (emphasis on NOBODY) cares...
Uri Blass
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Re: ICC for CCT11

Post by Uri Blass »

<snipped>
bob wrote:
Rolf wrote:
GM Benjamin the official member of the DB2 team has promissed on stage in 1997 during the match, that he would give us all the games for example he had played against the machine. What have you to say in his defence when it's a fact that he didnt give us what he had promised?
What would be the point? The genie was out of the bottle. The "jerk" had already made his nonsensical claims. Why would _anybody_ at IBM give him _anything_ after the ugly statements he made? Why would any of them bother to pee on him if he was on fire???
The point is that if you promise something you need to keep the promise.
The behaviour of kasparov is not relevant to it.

Uri
bob
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Re: ICC for CCT11

Post by bob »

Uri Blass wrote:<snipped>
bob wrote:
Rolf wrote:
GM Benjamin the official member of the DB2 team has promissed on stage in 1997 during the match, that he would give us all the games for example he had played against the machine. What have you to say in his defence when it's a fact that he didnt give us what he had promised?
What would be the point? The genie was out of the bottle. The "jerk" had already made his nonsensical claims. Why would _anybody_ at IBM give him _anything_ after the ugly statements he made? Why would any of them bother to pee on him if he was on fire???
The point is that if you promise something you need to keep the promise.
The behaviour of kasparov is not relevant to it.

Uri
Certainly it was relevant. I tell you I will help you do something. You return the favor by accusing me of cheating? You can _bet_ I am still going to be willing to help you...