ICGA response to ChessBase 4-part article

[Thomas Mayer]

Hi Kai,

Ippo issue is almost solved. Vas said that IPPOLIT seems to him not to be original, because it doesn't seem typed manually. Still, he has to prove that it is a clone of Rybka. RobboLito IS original, as Vas said, (therefore all other Ippos), because it was typed by hand. Why did you not read his important statements? Basically, Ippos are cleared, only about the initial, and rarely used IPPOLIT, Vas has to prove it to be a clone of Rybka, other Ippos were typed by hand, therefore original, as he explicitly said.

Besides that, something is illegal when proved not to be legal, right?

of course this is complete nonsense, either Vas has no idea what copyright means or he simply wants us to believe that he has no idea. How can a clone of clone result in no clone ? I mean Robbolito is simply a bugfixed Ippolit where a tremendous work was spent on changing the strange parts in Ippolit (which might be the result of RE) to something readable. Of course some additions were made, but overall Robolito is 99% Ippolit, simple translation to something readable doesn't mean you create something new, not by copyright law and of course not according rule 2 of ICGA.
If Ippolit is a direct Clone of Rybka it might even be illegal, even when Rybka itself might be illegal. And so all versions following Ippolit might be illegal as well (Robolitto, Houdini etc.). So when Ippolit is illegal, all follow ups are illegal.
Of course "because Vas says so" is not enough, to me all Ippolits are completely legal until proven different. Again, as Roger already pointed out, only Vas could stop all those fruitless discussions, but as long he answers on everything "that is a private question which I do not want to answer" we will never have any light in that discussion. I have no idea why Vas acts this way since the beginning of all this, I mean it's about his business, his reputation and he isn't interested ? Or would the answer be even worser for him ?

Greets, Thomas

[natasha]

Hi Kai,

Ippo issue is almost solved. Vas said that IPPOLIT seems to him not to be original, because it doesn't seem typed manually. Still, he has to prove that it is a clone of Rybka. RobboLito IS original, as Vas said, (therefore all other Ippos), because it was typed by hand. Why did you not read his important statements? Basically, Ippos are cleared, only about the initial, and rarely used IPPOLIT, Vas has to prove it to be a clone of Rybka, other Ippos were typed by hand, therefore original, as he explicitly said.

Besides that, something is illegal when proved not to be legal, right?

of course this is complete nonsense, either Vas has no idea what copyright means or he simply wants us to believe that he has no idea. How can a clone of clone result in no clone ? I mean Robbolito is simply a bugfixed Ippolit where a tremendous work was spent on changing the strange parts in Ippolit (which might be the result of RE) to something readable. Of course some additions were made, but overall Robolito is 99% Ippolit, simple translation to something readable doesn't mean you create something new, not by copyright law and of course not according rule 2 of ICGA.
If Ippolit is a direct Clone of Rybka it might even be illegal, even when Rybka itself might be illegal. And so all versions following Ippolit might be illegal as well (Robolitto, Houdini etc.). So when Ippolit is illegal, all follow ups are illegal.
Of course "because Vas says so" is not enough, to me all Ippolits are completely legal until proven different. Again, as Roger already pointed out, only Vas could stop all those fruitless discussions, but as long he answers on everything "that is a private question which I do not want to answer" we will never have any light in that discussion. I have no idea why Vas acts this way since the beginning of all this, I mean it's about his business, his reputation and he isn't interested ? Or would the answer be even worser for him ?

Greets, Thomas

+1

[Sven]

Hi Kai,

Ippo issue is almost solved. Vas said that IPPOLIT seems to him not to be original, because it doesn't seem typed manually. Still, he has to prove that it is a clone of Rybka. RobboLito IS original, as Vas said, (therefore all other Ippos), because it was typed by hand. Why did you not read his important statements? Basically, Ippos are cleared, only about the initial, and rarely used IPPOLIT, Vas has to prove it to be a clone of Rybka, other Ippos were typed by hand, therefore original, as he explicitly said.

Besides that, something is illegal when proved not to be legal, right?

[...] I mean Robbolito is simply a bugfixed Ippolit where a tremendous work was spent on changing the strange parts in Ippolit (which might be the result of RE) to something readable. Of course some additions were made, but overall Robolito is 99% Ippolit, simple translation to something readable doesn't mean you create something new, not by copyright law and of course not according rule 2 of ICGA.
If Ippolit is a direct Clone of Rybka it might even be illegal, even when Rybka itself might be illegal. And so all versions following Ippolit might be illegal as well (Robolitto, Houdini etc.). So when Ippolit is illegal, all follow ups are illegal.
Of course "because Vas says so" is not enough, to me all Ippolits are completely legal until proven different.

I fully agree to that part (EDIT: except for what I excluded by "[...]"), and would like to add that currently I see all engines of the "Ippolit" family as "legal" for the reason you gave but that it is still unknown whether they are "original", and whether that "legal" state will stay forever.

Again, as Roger already pointed out, only Vas could stop all those fruitless discussions, but as long he answers on everything "that is a private question which I do not want to answer" we will never have any light in that discussion. I have no idea why Vas acts this way since the beginning of all this, I mean it's about his business, his reputation and he isn't interested ? Or would the answer be even worser for him ?

I think that solving the open questions around the "Ippolit" engine family will, and must, be possible without the help of Vasik Rajlich. The document of Mark Watkins comparing Ippolit to R3 was a starting point upon which improvements might be possible as soon as we know which exact Rybka version to take for comparison.

Sven

[Rolf]

of course this is complete nonsense, either Vas has no idea what copyright means or he simply wants us to believe that he has no idea

Are you one of the few who finally voted against Vas in the panel? If yes, it would explain at least for me you tone in the message above. Fact is you dont have the programs Vas has written nor the education. Vas has passed the examins in famous US universities, so why talking in such a tome about him?

Since I am certainly a bigger ignorant than you in CC let me shortly rehash. For me it looks as if Vasik's whole programming style, his creativity, is something new for the more traditional programmers. That's why these only see the split either or in the many questions of did he or not. Are you personally absolutely sure that there isnt a better solution to all these questions that could also better explain why we had so many hate and misunderstanding?

If that unknown for now third solution could appear that would make my day because it would re-unite many members of the community who actually are certain that they must hate or dissent each other.

Why not giving this a thought. You might not be able to write a World Champion prog but perhaps you have the mind frame for such a third style explanation of the actual split in two camps.

Of course I have the fate of almost smelling the third in the air, so that Vas to me is absolutely innocent looking although many smart opponents call him a cheat.

[Sven]

Ippo issue is almost solved. Vas said that IPPOLIT seems to him not to be original, because it doesn't seem typed manually. Still, he has to prove that it is a clone of Rybka. RobboLito IS original, as Vas said, (therefore all other Ippos), because it was typed by hand. Why did you not read his important statements? Basically, Ippos are cleared, only about the initial, and rarely used IPPOLIT, Vas has to prove it to be a clone of Rybka, other Ippos were typed by hand, therefore original, as he explicitly said.

Besides that, something is illegal when proved not to be legal, right?

I disagree on "Robbolito was typed by hand", this is certainly wrong, it evolved from Ippolit via translating, editing, splitting into separate source files, possibly fixing bugs, and making some improvements.

Sven

It was Vas statement. First, no one accuses anymore RobboLito (therefore the following Ippos) of anything. Second, something is illegal when proved not to be legal. Fine? You guys have some elementary notions of Roman law, beginning from the Twelve Tables (~440 BC)? Funny folks.

Kai

See my reply to Thomas, also about "no one accuses". In my post above I commented on the "typed by hand" point, not on "legal until proven illegal" which is of course also my view of the law. No need for rhetoric here

Sven

[Laskos]

Ippo issue is almost solved. Vas said that IPPOLIT seems to him not to be original, because it doesn't seem typed manually. Still, he has to prove that it is a clone of Rybka. RobboLito IS original, as Vas said, (therefore all other Ippos), because it was typed by hand. Why did you not read his important statements? Basically, Ippos are cleared, only about the initial, and rarely used IPPOLIT, Vas has to prove it to be a clone of Rybka, other Ippos were typed by hand, therefore original, as he explicitly said.

Besides that, something is illegal when proved not to be legal, right?

I disagree on "Robbolito was typed by hand", this is certainly wrong, it evolved from Ippolit via translating, editing, splitting into separate source files, possibly fixing bugs, and making some improvements.

Sven

It was Vas statement. First, no one accuses anymore RobboLito (therefore the following Ippos) of anything. Second, something is illegal when proved not to be legal. Fine? You guys have some elementary notions of Roman law, beginning from the Twelve Tables (~440 BC)? Funny folks.

Kai

See my reply to Thomas, also about "no one accuses". In my post above I commented on the "typed by hand" point, not on "legal until proven illegal" which is of course also my view of the law. No need for rhetoric here

Sven

It's not my rhetoric, I am actually the FIRST to mention Roman law, ok? What ALL the involved forums are doing, you personally and most folks, is basically mob justice, either adulation or lynching, or weighing between these two options. Isn't it you who praised Adam Hair (a smart guy otherwise) uncultured Americanism of mob justice to have "all available material" for us to judge Rybka here? Rybka is judged by ICGA, as a private organization, if one wants to participate in its stupid tourneys, or, most importantly, legally. What's this crap justice here (or some other forums)?

Kai

[Sven]

It's not my rhetoric, I am actually the FIRST to mention Roman law, ok? What ALL the involved forums are doing, you personally and most folks, is basically mob justice, either adulation or lynching, or weighing between these two options. Isn't it you who praised Adam Hair (a smart guy otherwise) uncultured Americanism of mob justice to have "all available material" for us judge Rybka here? Rybka is judged by ICGA, as a private organization, or legally. What's this crap justice here (or some other forums)?

Kai, you are definitely mixing me up with someone else, no idea where you took this from. Nowhere did I "praise" Adam for such things, and I never wrote that the Rybka case shall be "judged here". I applauded to him taking an unbiased role and giving a survey that includes both views of the story.

Sven

[Laskos]

It's not my rhetoric, I am actually the FIRST to mention Roman law, ok? What ALL the involved forums are doing, you personally and most folks, is basically mob justice, either adulation or lynching, or weighing between these two options. Isn't it you who praised Adam Hair (a smart guy otherwise) uncultured Americanism of mob justice to have "all available material" for us judge Rybka here? Rybka is judged by ICGA, as a private organization, or legally. What's this crap justice here (or some other forums)?

Kai, you are definitely mixing me up with someone else, no idea where you took this from. Nowhere did I "praise" Adam for such things, and I never wrote that the Rybka case shall be "judged here". I applauded to him taking an unbiased role and giving a survey that includes both views of the story.

Sven

Ok, you didn't "praised" him, you "applauded" his "objectivity" in the middle between lynching and adulation. Good.

Kai

[Laskos]

It's not my rhetoric, I am actually the FIRST to mention Roman law, ok? What ALL the involved forums are doing, you personally and most folks, is basically mob justice, either adulation or lynching, or weighing between these two options. Isn't it you who praised Adam Hair (a smart guy otherwise) uncultured Americanism of mob justice to have "all available material" for us judge Rybka here? Rybka is judged by ICGA, as a private organization, or legally. What's this crap justice here (or some other forums)?

Kai, you are definitely mixing me up with someone else, no idea where you took this from. Nowhere did I "praise" Adam for such things, and I never wrote that the Rybka case shall be "judged here". I applauded to him taking an unbiased role and giving a survey that includes both views of the story.

Sven

Ok, you didn't "praised" him, you "applauded" his "objectivity" in the middle between lynching and adulation. Good.

Kai

No one reacted to this "objective" outrage written by Peter Skinner:

Code: Select all

On the subject of Houdini participating: 

I will leave this up to the _registered_ participants of CCT14. 

If the majority of the participants welcome Rybka into the event, and Vasik chooses to participate, it will. 

Peter Skinner 
CCT TD

AFAIK CCT is acting under ICGA rules. AFAIK Rybka is banned permanently under ICGA. Houdini is not banned at all, but could be banned if examined according to ICGA rules.

What the hell is Skinner writing here? In fact, most folks on these issues on all involved forums.

Kai

[natasha]

It's not my rhetoric, I am actually the FIRST to mention Roman law, ok? What ALL the involved forums are doing, you personally and most folks, is basically mob justice, either adulation or lynching, or weighing between these two options. Isn't it you who praised Adam Hair (a smart guy otherwise) uncultured Americanism of mob justice to have "all available material" for us judge Rybka here? Rybka is judged by ICGA, as a private organization, or legally. What's this crap justice here (or some other forums)?

Kai, you are definitely mixing me up with someone else, no idea where you took this from. Nowhere did I "praise" Adam for such things, and I never wrote that the Rybka case shall be "judged here". I applauded to him taking an unbiased role and giving a survey that includes both views of the story.

Sven

Ok, you didn't "praised" him, you "applauded" his "objectivity" in the middle between lynching and adulation. Good.

Kai

No one reacted to this "objective" outrage written by Peter Skinner:

Code: Select all

On the subject of Houdini participating: 

I will leave this up to the _registered_ participants of CCT14. 

If the majority of the participants welcome Rybka into the event, and Vasik chooses to participate, it will. 

Peter Skinner 
CCT TD

AFAIK CCT is acting under ICGA rules. AFAIK Rybka is banned permanently under ICGA. Houdini is not banned at all, but could be banned if examined according to ICGA rules.

What the hell is Skinner writing here? In fact, most folks on these issues on all involved forums.

Kai

we objected

he later posted rybka would not be entered