A problem CC community has

[chrisw]

I know David for 25+ years and I am confident he will go all the way the programmers want him to go. The problem is not David nor the ICGA (=David) but its programmers and the ongoing boycott of Rybka as lastly demonstrated when Peter Skinner was in favor to allow Rybka in his CCT tournament.

Everybody knows Rybka 3 is above suspicion (even Ken Thompson said so) and yet the boycott continues. Until then the problem remains. First something has to change between the ears of some programmers before the CC community can move on. It has been long enough by now.

Then why not ask Vas to talk to the ICGA and the case can be reopened. he could perhaps show the R3 code to ken who I think would be trusted by all sides.

The offer is appreciated but I think you first need to check some of the programmers else you will go the CSVN way.

I believe we all have said the same thing. Should he show that the current Rybka is clean, there would be no problem letting it compete. The only issue would be the current ban for past (very) bad behavior...

if anyone should be banned for "very bad behaviour" it should be one Robert Hyatt for false and malicious allegations against an entirely innocent competitor whose program he was unable to either beat or understand. Repeated and unjustified accusations of theft, appeals to, and actual disassembley of, and illegal publication of the internals of that program and then further participation in multiple libels and bullying via the world's press. I would doubt that there has ever been a more disgusting case of abuse in computer chess than that perpetrated by Hyatt here.

+6 - There is really no plus figure that will do justice to what you said. The numbers don't exist. You have given the best, most accurate synopsis of the situation I have ever heard.

IMHO Hyatt has almost ruined computer chess with his mouth and his actions.


george

Thank you George, I salute you too for your indefatigable gut-based opposition to the crime. Good guts, keep following them.

[JuLieN]

[moderation]
To Chris and Terry: your tone is escalating, and we will not accept that this thread degenerate into a street fight. You, especially, Terry, just made insults, which is prohibited by the forum's charter. You certainly don't want to get some early summer holidays...
[/moderation]

[chrisw]

[moderation]
To Chris and Terry: your tone is escalating, and we will not accept that this thread degenerate into a street fight. You, especially, Terry, just made insults, which is prohibited by the forum's charter. You certainly don't want to get some early summer holidays...
[/moderation]

What exactly is my name doing in this post? I suspect you know perfectly well that if Hyatt were prevented from his gratuitous insulting and McCracken were kept firmly under control that this forum would be relatively polite and peaceful. Most people here, me included believe it or not, are actually quite reasonable and polite people. You may resist the proposition, but the lead for aggressive language here comes almost entirely from Bob. Always has done.
As Amir Ban once said, rudeness drips from his tongue as if the most natural thing in the world, and as one time lead alpha here, he sets the tone. You know perfectly well, as mods here, that the only way to improve this forum is to directly deal with that specific problem.

[Terry McCracken]

[moderation]
To Chris and Terry: your tone is escalating, and we will not accept that this thread degenerate into a street fight. You, especially, Terry, just made insults, which is prohibited by the forum's charter. You certainly don't want to get some early summer holidays...
[/moderation]

What exactly is my name doing in this post? I suspect you know perfectly well that if Hyatt were prevented from his gratuitous insulting and McCracken were kept firmly under control that this forum would be relatively polite and peaceful. Most people here, me included believe it or not, are actually quite reasonable and polite people. You may resist the proposition, but the lead for aggressive language here comes almost entirely from Bob. Always has done.
As Amir Ban once said, rudeness drips from his tongue as if the most natural thing in the world, and as one time lead alpha here, he sets the tone. You know perfectly well, as mods here, that the only way to improve this forum is to directly deal with that specific problem.

You are full of yourself and you are lying, once again.

[JuLieN]

[moderation]
To Chris and Terry: your tone is escalating, and we will not accept that this thread degenerate into a street fight. You, especially, Terry, just made insults, which is prohibited by the forum's charter. You certainly don't want to get some early summer holidays...
[/moderation]

What exactly is my name doing in this post? I suspect you know perfectly well that if Hyatt were prevented from his gratuitous insulting and McCracken were kept firmly under control that this forum would be relatively polite and peaceful. Most people here, me included believe it or not, are actually quite reasonable and polite people. You may resist the proposition, but the lead for aggressive language here comes almost entirely from Bob. Always has done.
As Amir Ban once said, rudeness drips from his tongue as if the most natural thing in the world, and as one time lead alpha here, he sets the tone. You know perfectly well, as mods here, that the only way to improve this forum is to directly deal with that specific problem.

Chris, Hyatt IS prevented from his irony, and got several warnings/post erased previously. Terry's insults were triggered by your irony. So what Hyatt can't do, you can't do either. Dura lex sed lex. Just don't (everybody!) get into escalating discussions where you throw insults and irony to each-others.

This is the only explanation I'll give, so answering this message is useless.

[michiguel]

[moderation]
To Chris and Terry: your tone is escalating, and we will not accept that this thread degenerate into a street fight. You, especially, Terry, just made insults, which is prohibited by the forum's charter. You certainly don't want to get some early summer holidays...
[/moderation]

What exactly is my name doing in this post? I suspect you know perfectly well that if Hyatt were prevented from his gratuitous insulting and McCracken were kept firmly under control that this forum would be relatively polite and peaceful. Most people here, me included believe it or not, are actually quite reasonable and polite people. You may resist the proposition, but the lead for aggressive language here comes almost entirely from Bob. Always has done.
As Amir Ban once said, rudeness drips from his tongue as if the most natural thing in the world, and as one time lead alpha here, he sets the tone. You know perfectly well, as mods here, that the only way to improve this forum is to directly deal with that specific problem.

Chris, Hyatt IS prevented from his irony, and got several warnings/post erased previously. Terry's insults were triggered by your irony. So what Hyatt can't do, you can't do either. Dura lex sed lex. Just don't (everybody!) get into escalating discussions where you throw insults and irony to each-others.

This is the only explanation I'll give, so answering this message is useless.

[MODERATION]
I just locked the thread for a brief moment, so the mods can discuss a couple of things.

Miguel
EDIT: unlocked thread now. Topics like "Is/isn't engine X a clone?" belong to EO. We tolerate off-topic (small) branches of a thread as long as they do not swamp the original topic, and that is valid for almost everything. Here, it is becoming quite big. It it continues this way, it is ok, but we may move it. Fights with not substance are not allowed anywhere, particularly if they are one-liners. No productive info come out of that.

Let's move on.

[Norm Pollock]

I no longer have my prescriptions filled generically. I want the original product, not a clone. I'm sure all the anti-cloners here do the same.

[rodolfoleoni]

It seems many posts go out topic with this clone war.

The original concept is: why don't try to improve ICGA from inside? And about my possible membership, I'm seriously considering it. Tough, I think programmers must rule (in democratic mean), while non-programmers as I am could be kind of external support.

[Uri Blass]

I'd be very curious to know Tord viewpoint, as he posted Fabien open letter here. I've got the impression he's gone from Stockfish project, maybe because of disagreements with you about ICGA, clones, etc. But, being this one only an impression, I'd like to hear from you how things are inside the Team. With the hope to not offend you.

No offence at all. We have never discussed about ICGA (that I discovered only recently) nor clones or tournaments. All our discussion have been on strictly technical points.

Actually my first discussion about tournaments and ICGA was the monster thread that I started few days ago. I have to admit I was never interested in this topic (I was and still I am not interested in tournaments) and I also knew almost nothing of ICGA until few weeks ago.

I've my own interpretation of everything happened in these years.

- Rybka affair: just after the first appearance of R1 I remember several posts on talkchess. Several people claimed R1 had "stolen" something from Fruit. Not based on RE or hex reading, but only by comparing engines output.

I do not remember several people making serious claims that R1 stole something from fruit based on comparing engines output before reverese engineering of Rybka.

Note that if somebody claims something like this then the same person needs to show the relevant output if he wants me to take him seriously.

If somebody thinks that he has some evidence that Rybka is based on Fruit based on engine output without reverse engineering then
I would like to see the evidence in a different thread in the relevant forum.

[Rebel]

It seems many posts go out topic with this clone war.

The original concept is: why don't try to improve ICGA from inside? And about my possible membership, I'm seriously considering it. Tough, I think programmers must rule (in democratic mean), while non-programmers as I am could be kind of external support.

The programmers DO rule the ICGA.

And in this specific case they boycott the strongest entity on the planet, Rybka cluster. They have seen the Ippolit source code (alleged illegal Rybka 3 hack, a punishable crime), discovered nothing Fruity and yet some (many?) plunder its secrets to make progress themselves in the meantime denying the father of their progress the right to play. To make the situation even worse some of them actively manipulate (non) ICGA tournaments to exclude Rybka cluster from participation.

There is always something in CC but I can not remember a time in CC I have seen so much self serving hypocrisy.

So there goes my popularity level among chess programmers and I can not care less, the truth must be said.

The ICGA in all of this has been a slave of the programmers. When the Fabien letter dropped into David's mailbox he had no choice then to act else the WCCC would be dead. It's the same with Harvey's generous proposal in this thread echoed by Bob. I contacted Harvey privately, he asked for my patience in order to check with x,y,z and reported a no go.

So now you know who controls the ICGA.

A convenient elimination of a competitor.

How self-serving.