Komodo 8 Announcement

[S.Taylor]

BTW, here is my opinion about new commercial engine releases which are weaker than Stockfish or playing at near Elo level:
I can change my mind about allowing commercial engines in SCCT,
If the commercial authors will give as present their engines + paying my hardware electricity bills!

There will be exception only in case, I mean: I can pay and test their commercial engines,
If there will be available X commercial engine which will be at least +100 Elo stronger than free available engine (currently Stockfish)
Then it does not matter the price...I am ready to pay 100 Euro, 200 Euro or even more...

Otherwise...I can't see any reason to buy it...

In other words my dear friend, it all depends on you )
And I believe that you will make the right decision !!



Greetings,
Sedat

We will normally give a free copy of Komodo on request to any respected individual or group who tests engines and provides a rating list that is well known. We would be glad to do so for you if you decide to test all top commercial engines who do the same. But you ruled that out by asking for money for your electric bill, which of course neither Komodo nor any other commercial engine would offer, as we would have to do the same for all the testing groups and then they would have their neutrality questioned. As long as you don't have to pay for an engine yourself, why should you test freeware but not commercial software? For many people the cost of engines like Komodo is rather insignificant. If someone spends thousands of dollars to get a good computer for chess, another $60 for the engine is hardly a consideration. I realize that for many people $60 is not a trivial sum, but that shouldn't be an issue for a tester.

Best regards, Larry

Quite surprising to my understanding.
Is testing engines a fetish or opiate for some people who have nothing better to do?
It would seem to me that the $60 should be a non issue in comparison to the return favor of so many hours of human time and heart, and computer time.

[S.Taylor]

Komodo 8 will be released within the next two weeks, both by ChessBase and on komodochess.com. They will have the same engine, but the ChessBase version will include their own GUI and their own opening book, plus PlayChess membership. Our release will include Windows 64 bit and 32 bit versions plus Mac and Linux versions. We anticipate that our price will remain the same as for Komodo 7, and that Komodo 7 purchasers will get the same discount as Komodo 6 purchasers received when buying Komodo 7. Our exact release date is not yet decided but we will post an announcement here when it is.
Komodo 8 uses the same code as development version 1288.00, but due to a better choice of compiler it runs 4% faster. As has been reported here by Graham Banks, version 1288.00 (without the 4% speedup) defeated Houdini 4 by 16 wins to 4 (with 30 draws), and as reported here by Ingo Bauer it finished 9 elo ahead of Stockfish 5 in his 3000+ game rating test, without either the speedup or the use of Syzygy tablebases!
In my own testing at 2' + 1" Komodo 8 defeated Houdini 4 by 30 to 43 elo points on one, two, and four threads (each match a thousand games), despite Houdini's well-known strength at blitz. Against Stockfish 5 at this same time limit, results were very close, seven elo plus on one thread, seven elo minus on 2, 4, and 8 threads (combined results). Based on the results of outside testers, it appears that Komodo gains much more from more thinking time than Houdini, and perhaps slightly more than Stockfish. There is little doubt that Komodo 8 will be the top rated commercial engine; whether it will outrate Stockfish will depend on test conditions and on whether or not the latest dev. version of Stockfish is used.
How much is the elo gain from Komodo 7? Based on results against other engines on one thread it appears to be about 40 points, both according to Ingo (IPON) and to my own 2' + 1" tests. Based on a direct match on one thread Komodo 8 beat Komodo 7a by 50 elo in two thousand games at that time control; on two threads it won by 57 elo, and on four it leads by 502 to 348 (+63 elo) at this writing. We have improved MP performance in Komodo 8 (beyond the general improvements), and these results confirm that this is the case. Bear in mind that direct matches of related engines tend to overstated rating differences by 20-25%, so I think the most accurate estimate for elo gain against other engines is about forty on one thread and about fifty on four, at time limits in the five minute ballpark.

Wouldn't it be nice to call it the "Don Daily" version/edition/module?

Mr. Fernando always wanted to have him remembered by something.

[Modern Times]

But if you are just trying to determine as quickly as possible whether a small program change is an elo gainer or not, the margin of error for a given number of games is smaller if the opponent is about equal, so it would take more games against a weaker opponent like Houdini than against an equal opponent like Stockfish. It's true that some changes might work better against one than against the other, but that is only rarely the case. For most changes, the main thing is to minimize the error bar. Actually, playing the older version of your own program does this most efficiently, but there are some problems with such self-play, so we use both methods.
It also seems that for unknown reasons we have more trouble against SF than against Houdini even after allowing for the margin by which SF beats Houdini. So apparently we have more trouble with SF style, so it makes sense to focus on our most difficult opponent.

Yes, this looks like a logical approach.

[lkaufman]

BTW, here is my opinion about new commercial engine releases which are weaker than Stockfish or playing at near Elo level:
I can change my mind about allowing commercial engines in SCCT,
If the commercial authors will give as present their engines + paying my hardware electricity bills!

There will be exception only in case, I mean: I can pay and test their commercial engines,
If there will be available X commercial engine which will be at least +100 Elo stronger than free available engine (currently Stockfish)
Then it does not matter the price...I am ready to pay 100 Euro, 200 Euro or even more...

Otherwise...I can't see any reason to buy it...

In other words my dear friend, it all depends on you )
And I believe that you will make the right decision !!



Greetings,
Sedat

We will normally give a free copy of Komodo on request to any respected individual or group who tests engines and provides a rating list that is well known. We would be glad to do so for you if you decide to test all top commercial engines who do the same. But you ruled that out by asking for money for your electric bill, which of course neither Komodo nor any other commercial engine would offer, as we would have to do the same for all the testing groups and then they would have their neutrality questioned. As long as you don't have to pay for an engine yourself, why should you test freeware but not commercial software? For many people the cost of engines like Komodo is rather insignificant. If someone spends thousands of dollars to get a good computer for chess, another $60 for the engine is hardly a consideration. I realize that for many people $60 is not a trivial sum, but that shouldn't be an issue for a tester.

Best regards, Larry

Quite surprising to my understanding.
Is testing engines a fetish or opiate for some people who have nothing better to do?
It would seem to me that the $60 should be a non issue in comparison to the return favor of so many hours of human time and heart, and computer time.

It seems you misunderstood my reply. We are glad to provide a free copy to recognized rating groups/individuals, but not to pay their electric bills (!). I'm just pointing out that if we provide a free copy, we should get equal treatment with the free engines; a tester shouldn't be concerned with how much someone else has to pay for the engine.

[S.Taylor]

Yes, right. Sorry for not seeing whole story.

[lkaufman]

Komodo 8 will be released within the next two weeks, both by ChessBase and on komodochess.com. They will have the same engine, but the ChessBase version will include their own GUI and their own opening book, plus PlayChess membership. Our release will include Windows 64 bit and 32 bit versions plus Mac and Linux versions. We anticipate that our price will remain the same as for Komodo 7, and that Komodo 7 purchasers will get the same discount as Komodo 6 purchasers received when buying Komodo 7. Our exact release date is not yet decided but we will post an announcement here when it is.
Komodo 8 uses the same code as development version 1288.00, but due to a better choice of compiler it runs 4% faster. As has been reported here by Graham Banks, version 1288.00 (without the 4% speedup) defeated Houdini 4 by 16 wins to 4 (with 30 draws), and as reported here by Ingo Bauer it finished 9 elo ahead of Stockfish 5 in his 3000+ game rating test, without either the speedup or the use of Syzygy tablebases!
In my own testing at 2' + 1" Komodo 8 defeated Houdini 4 by 30 to 43 elo points on one, two, and four threads (each match a thousand games), despite Houdini's well-known strength at blitz. Against Stockfish 5 at this same time limit, results were very close, seven elo plus on one thread, seven elo minus on 2, 4, and 8 threads (combined results). Based on the results of outside testers, it appears that Komodo gains much more from more thinking time than Houdini, and perhaps slightly more than Stockfish. There is little doubt that Komodo 8 will be the top rated commercial engine; whether it will outrate Stockfish will depend on test conditions and on whether or not the latest dev. version of Stockfish is used.
How much is the elo gain from Komodo 7? Based on results against other engines on one thread it appears to be about 40 points, both according to Ingo (IPON) and to my own 2' + 1" tests. Based on a direct match on one thread Komodo 8 beat Komodo 7a by 50 elo in two thousand games at that time control; on two threads it won by 57 elo, and on four it leads by 502 to 348 (+63 elo) at this writing. We have improved MP performance in Komodo 8 (beyond the general improvements), and these results confirm that this is the case. Bear in mind that direct matches of related engines tend to overstated rating differences by 20-25%, so I think the most accurate estimate for elo gain against other engines is about forty on one thread and about fifty on four, at time limits in the five minute ballpark.

Wouldn't it be nice to call it the "Don Daily" version/edition/module?

Mr. Fernando always wanted to have him remembered by something.

I think that would be misleading for this version, as Don died long before even Komodo 7. Perhaps we can rename Komodo 6 after him (that being the last version before Mark became involved), or Komodo TCEC (that being the last one Don contributed to).

[S.Taylor]

I don't think it HAS to be one which what Don did a lot of work on. And also there COULD exist an ideology of anniversary of death. But these are just ideas. Far be it from me to mix in, in a way which would not make sense to, or offend, others!

[Werewolf]

Are there specific areas K8 has improved in (aside from multi threaded use you've already mentioned), or is it just lots of tweaks here and there?

[Tomcass]

I have not had the opportunity to test Komodo 8. According to my available information, my guess is that Komodo 8 will be close to the top but 10 to 20 Elo Points below the top leading compile SF250814MZ x64 SSE4.2, under my testing -4 and 6 cores- conditions. This Am0s' compile is around 80 Elo Points better than Komodo 7, 60 Elo Points better than Houdini 4 and 20 Elo Points better than Stockfish 5.

Needless to say that I will be delighted to buy this new version of Komodo as soon as it appears. Tank you very much, Larry -and team- for your great work. It is not easy at all to follow the impressive pace of Stockfish and -if my guess is right- your Komodo 8 will be very close to the strongest compile of this wonderful engine.

Best regards from Barcelona.

Tom.

... by the way, the pricing of the new Komodo 8, having into account the discount for old customers seems to me very reasonable.

[Sedat Canbaz]

Hi Sedat,

but what is to do ...
Blocked now Komodo too?
Normely no interest on it because Komodo was a flagship in the past. But go do a Company with selling clones and announcements in comparing with clones isn't in my interest!

On the other Hand: Junior, Zappa, Hiarcs, Shredder are available from ChessBase too. The Company try to make Profit only, that is OK ... not easy Situation. I can't understand that programmers build a Group for selling.

Bad is if clones are Commercial available.
Bad for the complete community.

And programmers can building a Group ...
We all know that if we are thinking on the bad open letters.

For myself clearer ... Komodo Team supported clones if I read the messages. Can't build an other opinion so far!

Not normely that the Team gave beta Version to People that have the complete Rating list full of clones and to compare results with clone software.

What do you do now?

Perhaps we should blocked such things too?
I have nothing again Komodo but the Publicity is bad and I have no longer interest to Support things around clones!

Give me a hint ...
Your opinion is important for myself!

At the moment the only clear commercial engine is Chiron.

Best
Frank

All I will say to you Frank (and Sedat) is that even the programmers seem to be divided over the Fruit/Rybka issue.
Likewise, there is no clear agreement over the Rybka/Ippolit issue.

From what I understand, both of you were absent from the computer chess scene while all of this stuff was being bashed to death in the forums and elsewhere.
Most of us have moved on.

With all due respect, I don't think that either of you should be coming back trying to tell others what to do, or what/who is right or wrong.
Each person should get their enjoyment out of our hobby through doing what interests them.

Graham.

Dear Graham,

First of all,
I never tried to tell others what to do, or who is right or wrong
Give me any example...and correct me please if I am wrong
Exception sometimes I tried to help to people about start Elo calculations
Also sometimes I found weakness in some opening books, but believe me I just wanted to help
In other words, just for ComputerChess's progress


BTW,
And If we will talk about injustices and double standards please...
Really I don't want to talk about this issue, otherwise it will take days,months about double standards over me...
And believe me you will suffer too, I still remember your mistakes, when you was as Talkchess moderator

But however, once more I say Sorry (if I have any mistakes) ...
and I forgive all chess friends...because chess is building bridge of friendships, right ?)

Finely,
It's ok my friend...relax I have nothing against your tournaments and your books
And sorry again that sometimes I found weakness in your books, but believe me I just wanted to help
Note also my books have weakness too...

Keep up the good work,

Best,
Sedat