On Opening books in 2015

[zullil]

That is why, with perfect play, e4 should be better than d4

Surely with perfect play these are exactly equal in value. Both lead to the same outcome, right? Almost surely a draw.

Not quite.

On e4, black simply does not have a line that equalises fully, some Sicilian lines give fair chances, but are few and far between.

Petrov does not equalise, mainstream Caro-Kann also not, the Ruy Lopez gives white steady advantage, Philidor is a pain, etc.

On d4, most lines favour white, for example, the Queen's Indian Defence, whatever engines might think, most lines of the QGD and QGA, most lines of the Slav, the Nimzo-Indian is also bad for black, etc.
But, a single opening holds perfectly, providing full equality: the KID.

That is why, e4 is better with perfect play, while d4 scores better in a wider range of openings, but not with perfect play.

Fischer and Kasparov were no fools, and also Carlsen, they all like finachhetoeing their king bishops, whether with white or black, and the first 2 players had the KID as a staple of their opening repertoire.

Both Fischer and Kasparov preferred e4, and those are the 2 strongest players in history until the appearance of Carlsen.

OK, I give up. We are not speaking the same language.

[Ron Langeveld]

I even do not know what organization ICCF is, but, it should have suspended its existence the day powerful computers appeared.

Would you care to explain this statement ?

...and please try to give it some thought before posting more 'nuanced' thoughts or treating all correspondence players alike for that matter.

[jefk]

[quote="Lyudmil Tsvetkov"]
I wonder, without book, how many engines will choose Ba4 instead?[/quote]

depends how much you value the bishop pair,
or rather, give a penalty for losing it; with SF6 i
find it a pity some of these parameters can't
be tuned by the user anymore.

same with the Slav Moscow, after ...h6 the move Bxf6 is
preferred by Stockfish, but if Black defends accurately, often
with a move as ...g6 after a while the positions become equal.

NB similar with the Sicilian Najdorf against your preferred 1.e4 btw
Provided again you play it accurately, no fancy moves as a5 or h5 against
the English attack, nope, a bit different. Result is fully equal, although
Komodo tended to give White a slight advantage; an evaluation which didn't
seem right to me, because the games never were won by White.

maybe i should give an example later, i'll see what i can do.
Problem for humans are the many difficult Najdorf variations
after moves as h3 Adams attack, Bg5 main line (incl poisoned pawn)
and so on. My comp has no problems with such lines though.

[lucasart]

Let's be specific.

Two Knight's Defence:

[d]r1bqkb1r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/4p1N1/2B1P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq - 0 4

Which side favours that one?

Because, according to my SF, in the main line after d5 and Na5, the position is fully equal, or even black has some advantage.

According to Fischer however, white is close to winning, or straightforward wins this.

Who is right?

I bet that Fischer.
Fischer analysed that at home some 40 moves ahead. Engines will not be able to go 40 moves ahead/80 plies under whatever conditions in the current computer chess state.

Same with countless other opening positions. Engines simply lack the necessary depth of search to come up with the right results.

If anyone proves that indeed on the above diagram black is better, or the position is equal, I would be very happy.

Unfortunately, I am very much afraid white has substantial advantage above, in the range of at least 60cps, so winning or close to winning.

Fischer vs. SF in this position: 0-1

[Dann Corbit]

That is why, with perfect play, e4 should be better than d4

Surely with perfect play these are exactly equal in value. Both lead to the same outcome, right? Almost surely a draw.

Not quite.

On e4, black simply does not have a line that equalises fully, some Sicilian lines give fair chances, but are few and far between.

Petrov does not equalise, mainstream Caro-Kann also not, the Ruy Lopez gives white steady advantage, Philidor is a pain, etc.

On d4, most lines favour white, for example, the Queen's Indian Defence, whatever engines might think, most lines of the QGD and QGA, most lines of the Slav, the Nimzo-Indian is also bad for black, etc.
But, a single opening holds perfectly, providing full equality: the KID.

That is why, e4 is better with perfect play, while d4 scores better in a wider range of openings, but not with perfect play.

Fischer and Kasparov were no fools, and also Carlsen, they all like finachhetoeing their king bishops, whether with white or black, and the first 2 players had the KID as a staple of their opening repertoire.

Both Fischer and Kasparov preferred e4, and those are the 2 strongest players in history until the appearance of Carlsen.

Hans Berliner, correspondence world champion 1965 - 1968, was strongly in favor of 1.d4. (See his book: "The System: A World Champion's Approach to Chess")

He won an incredible 87.5 % of the points in his world championship matches. No one else has ever scored that high. Second best scoring goes to Cecil J S Purdy with 80.8% followed by Gert Timmerman, with 80%.

So I do not think that the case is closed for 1.e4.

[Dann Corbit]

Another one.

[d]r1bqkbnr/1ppp1ppp/p1n5/1B2p3/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 0 4

Ruy Lopez, Morphy Defence/a6

Which is the best move here?

As, according to my SF, Bc6, the Exchange Variation, is the best continuation, with Ba4 ranking many centipawns behind.

So, if I have to trust SF in the opening, I have to play Bc6 every single time.

Those positions have been analysed extensively by humans, and it is proven beyond any doubt that Ba4 is better than Bc6, much better indeed.

How do you want me to trust SF here?

I know where to trust SF: in open middlegames and endgames with abundant tactics; there the engine excels.

However, I do not trust SF in closed positions, specific theoretical endgames, as well as in a large bunch of openings.
The search depth and understanding of engines for such positions is simply too low.

On my machine, SF picks Ba4 in about 2 minutes and sticks with it.

Code: Select all

Searching: r1bqkbnr/1ppp1ppp/p1n5/1B2p3/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 0 1
infinite: 0 ponder: 0 time: 0 increment: 0 moves to go: 0

 1   +0.44   00:00     107  Bxc6 dxc6 
 2   +0.44   00:00     152  Bxc6 dxc6 
 3   +0.44   00:00     194  Bxc6 dxc6 Nxe5 
 4   +0.64   00:00     259  Bxc6 dxc6 Nxe5 a5 
 5   +0.58   00:00     429  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 f6 O-O 
 6   +0.78   00:00     985  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 f6 O-O c5 
 7   +0.65   00:00    2723  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bg4 O-O Bxf3 Qxf3 
 8   +0.78   00:00    3731  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bg4 O-O Bxf3 Qxf3 Qd4 
 9   +0.76   00:00   12738  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bg4 O-O Ne7 Nbd2 Ng6 h3 
10   +0.33   00:00   38913  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 O-O Nf6 Bg5 O-O Nbd2 Bg4 h3 
11   +0.19   00:00   70629  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 O-O Ne7 Be3 O-O Nbd2 f6 h3 Be6 a3 Ng6 
12   +0.35   00:00   83553  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 O-O Ne7 Be3 O-O Nbd2 f6 c4 Bg4 
13   +0.36   00:00  109771  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 O-O Ne7 Be3 O-O Nbd2 Bg4 c4 h6 c5 Bxf3 Qxf3 
14   +0.22   00:00  416514  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 O-O Ne7 Be3 O-O a3 f6 c4 b6 Nc3 Be6 h3 Ng6 
15   +0.27   00:00  651414  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Qc4 Ne7 a4 b5 Qa2 Bg4 Nbd2 Bc5 h3 
16   +0.27   00:00  848947  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Qc3 O-O Nc4 b5 Nxd6 cxd6 Rfe1 
17   +0.34   00:00   1091K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Qc3 O-O Nc4 Qd7 Rfd1 Kh8 Nxd6 
18   +0.33   00:00   1736K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Rfd1 c5 Qc3 b6 Nc4 O-O Qd3 Bxc4 Qxc4+ Kh8 Qb3 
19   +0.42   00:00   2488K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Rfd1 O-O Nc4 Bxh2+ Kxh2 Qxd4 Bxd4 Bxc4 Bc5 
20   +0.31   00:00   3261K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Qc3 O-O Nc4 Qd7 h3 Kh8 Nxd6 cxd6 Nd4 
21   +0.34   00:00   5335K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Rfd1 O-O Qc3 Qb8 h3 h6 a3 Bf7 Nc4 c5 e5 
22   +0.38   00:01   7929K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Rfd1 O-O Nc4 Bxh2+ Kxh2 Qxd4 Rxd4 c5 Rdd1 Bxc4 Bxc5 Rae8 
23   +0.45   00:03  24213K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Ne7 Rfd1 O-O Nc4 Bxh2+ Kxh2 Qxd4 Rxd4 c5 Rdd1 Bxc4 Bxc5 
24   +0.41   00:04  37009K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Nh6 Bxh6 gxh6 Re1 Qe7 e5 fxe5 Nxe5 O-O Nd2 Be6 Nef3 Rae8 Ne4 Qg7 Nxd6 cxd6 Qxd6 Qxb2 
25   +0.22   00:05  45632K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Ne7 Qc3 Qd7 Nc4 Bxc4 Qxc4 Ng6 Nd4 O-O-O Nf5 Rhe8 Rad1 Qe6 Nxd6+ Rxd6 
26   +0.29   00:07  59044K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Qe7 c4 c5 Qc3 O-O-O Rad1 Kb8 Rfe1 Bf7 h3 Nh6 b3 Bg6 Bxh6 gxh6 
27   +0.34   00:09  76246K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Ne7 Qc3 Qd7 Rad1 Ng6 Nd4 O-O-O N2b3 Ne5 f3 Kb8 Rfe1 Rhe8 Nxe6 Qxe6 Na5 Nf7 Nc4 c5 Nxd6 cxd6 
28   +0.27   00:12 101304K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Ne7 Rfd1 Ng6 Qc3 Qe7 Nd4 Bb4 Qd3 Ne5 Qe2 Bxd2 Rxd2 Nc4 Nxe6 Qxe6 Rd4 Nd6 Rad1 O-O 
29   +0.34   00:19 167228K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Nh6 Bxh6 gxh6 Qe3 Qe7 Rfe1 Rg8 e5 Qg7 g3 fxe5 Nxe5 Bxe5 Qxe5 Qxe5 Rxe5 O-O-O Ne4 Bd5 f4 Rge8 Nf6 Rxe5 fxe5 
30   +0.35   00:24 212975K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Nh6 Bxh6 gxh6 Qe3 Qe7 Rfe1 Rg8 g3 Bc5 Qxh6 O-O-O e5 Rg6 Qh4 Bg4 exf6 Qxf6 Qxf6 Rxf6 Ne4 Bxf2+ Kxf2 
31   +0.21   00:54 492774K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bg4 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 Ne7 Bb2 Ng6 d4 f6 Nc4 O-O Ne3 Re8 dxe5 Nxe5 Nxe5 Bxe5 Bxe5 fxe5 Qxd8 Rexd8 Rfd1 Rd4 f3 Rdd8 Rxd8+ Rxd8 
32   +0.22   02:06   1124M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Qe2 f6 Nc4 b5 Ne3 c5 Nf5 g6 Nxd6 cxd6 Bh6 Re8 axb5 axb5 Rxa8 Qxa8 h3 d5 
33   +0.22   02:38   1382M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Qe2 Qe7 Rd1 f6 Bb2 Bf7 Nc4 Nc5 Ne3 Rae8 Nf5 Qd7 h3 Ne6 d4 exd4 N3xd4 Nxd4 Bxd4 
34   +0.20   05:19   2742M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Qe2 Qe7 Rd1 f6 Bb2 Bf7 Nh4 g6 Nhf3 Nc5 Qe1 Rad8 h3 Kh8 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Rfe8 Qe3 Ne6 
35   +0.22   05:56   3087M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Qe2 Qe7 Rd1 f6 Nf1 Bc5 Bb2 Rad8 h3 Rfe8 Bc3 Bf7 Ne3 Bxe3 Qxe3 c5 Nh4 Be6 Nf5 Bxf5 exf5 b6 Bd2 
36   +0.17   07:21   3900M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qe7 Bg5 f6 Bd2 Nc5 Nh4 g6 Qg4 Qg7 Rfb1 b5 axb5 axb5 Be3 f5 exf5 Rxa1 Rxa1 gxf5 Qxg7+ Kxg7 
37   +0.19   09:05   4896M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Bb2 f6 h3 Qe7 Re1 Bf7 Nh4 g6 Nhf3 Nc5 d4 exd4 Bxd4 Nd7 Qe2 Rad8 Rad1 c5 Bb2 Ne5 Nxe5 Bxe5 Bxe5 Qxe5 
38   +0.19   10:00   5446M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Bb2 f6 h3 Qe7 Re1 Bf7 Nh4 g6 Nhf3 Nc5 d4 exd4 Bxd4 Nd7 Qe2 Rad8 Rad1 c5 Bb2 Ne5 Nxe5 Bxe5 Bxe5 Qxe5 
Nodes: 5446754273
Nodes/second: 9077863
Best move: Ba4
Ponder move: Nf6

[Dann Corbit]

Let's be specific.

Two Knight's Defence:

[d]r1bqkb1r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/4p1N1/2B1P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq - 0 4

Which side favours that one?

Because, according to my SF, in the main line after d5 and Na5, the position is fully equal, or even black has some advantage.

According to Fischer however, white is close to winning, or straightforward wins this.

Who is right?

I bet that Fischer.
Fischer analysed that at home some 40 moves ahead. Engines will not be able to go 40 moves ahead/80 plies under whatever conditions in the current computer chess state.

Same with countless other opening positions. Engines simply lack the necessary depth of search to come up with the right results.

If anyone proves that indeed on the above diagram black is better, or the position is equal, I would be very happy.

Unfortunately, I am very much afraid white has substantial advantage above, in the range of at least 60cps, so winning or close to winning.

For me, using Stockfish, the score went negative and stayed negative at 40 seconds. It is already at -1/3 or a pawn.

Code: Select all

Searching: r1bqkb1r/pppp1ppp/2n2n2/4p1N1/2B1P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R b KQkq - 0 1
infinite: 0 ponder: 0 time: 0 increment: 0 moves to go: 0

 1   +1.32   00:00      64  d5 exd5 Nxd5 
 2   +1.32   00:00     113  d5 exd5 
 3   +1.32   00:00     172  d5 exd5 Nxd5 
 4   +0.76   00:00     273  d5 exd5 Nxd5 O-O 
 5   +0.88   00:00     469  d5 exd5 Nxd5 O-O a6 
 6   +1.08   00:00     884  d5 exd5 Nxd5 Bxd5 Qxd5 O-O 
 7   +0.20   00:00    4455  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Bb5+ c6 dxc6 
 8   +0.17   00:00    7875  d5 exd5 Na5 Qe2 Nxc4 Qxc4 Nxd5 d4 
 9   +0.26   00:00   14240  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ Bd7 Qe2 Bd6 O-O O-O Bxd7 Qxd7 
10   +0.22   00:00   45253  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 Bg4 c3 Nxc4 dxc4 a6 
11   +0.21   00:00   99995  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 Nxc4 dxc4 Bd6 O-O e4 Re1 O-O 
12   +0.32   00:00  199273  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ c6 dxc6 bxc6 Ba4 Qd6 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Qe7 dxe4 Nxe4 
13   +0.36   00:00  283739  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Nfd2 Bg4 f3 exf3 gxf3 Nxd5 Qe2+ Be6 Bxd5 Qxd5 
14   +0.21   00:00  416682  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bc5 Nc3 Qe7 Nd2 Bg4 f3 exf3 Qxe7+ Kxe7 Nxf3 
15   -0.06   00:00  748284  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bc5 Nfd2 Qe7 Nc3 Bg4 f3 exf3 Qxe7+ Kxe7 gxf3 Bh5 Nb5 c6 
16   -0.06   00:00  919115  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bc5 Nfd2 O-O O-O c6 dxc6 Bg4 
17   -0.07   00:00   1827K  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bb4+ Nfd2 O-O h3 c6 dxc6 bxc6 O-O Re8 Nc3 Bxc3 bxc3 
18   -0.01   00:00   2266K  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bb4+ Nfd2 O-O a3 Bd6 Nc3 Bf5 O-O Re8 Nb3 c6 
19   -0.12   00:01   4418K  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bc5 Nfd2 O-O h3 b5 Nb3 Bb4+ Bd2 Bxd2+ N3xd2 bxc4 O-O e3 fxe3 Qxd5 Qxc4 
20   +0.11   00:01   5440K  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bc5 Nfd2 O-O h3 e3 fxe3 Re8 Nb3 Ne4 O-O Bd6 Nc3 Ng3 
21   +0.11   00:02  10327K  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ c6 dxc6 bxc6 Qf3 Be7 Bxc6+ Nxc6 Qxc6+ Bd7 Qc4 O-O Nc3 Rc8 Qe2 h6 Nf3 e4 Nd4 Bg4 f3 Bxf3 Nxf3 exf3 Qxf3 Bd6 
22   -0.13   00:03  14301K  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ c6 dxc6 bxc6 Qf3 Be7 Bxc6+ Nxc6 Qxc6+ Bd7 Qf3 O-O Nc3 Ng4 Nge4 f5 Ng3 e4 Qe2 Bd6 h3 Nf6 d3 Bxg3 fxg3 exd3 Qxd3 Re8+ Be3 Rc8 
23   -0.07   00:04  18608K  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ c6 dxc6 bxc6 Qf3 Be7 Bxc6+ Nxc6 Qxc6+ Bd7 Qf3 O-O Nc3 Ng4 Nge4 f5 Ng3 e4 Qe2 Bd6 h3 Nf6 d3 Bxg3 fxg3 exd3 Qxd3 
24   -0.03   00:07  39014K  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ c6 dxc6 bxc6 Be2 h6 Nf3 e4 Ne5 Bc5 c3 Bd6 d4 exd3 Nxd3 Bf5 h3 O-O O-O Re8 Nd2 Bh2+ Kxh2 Bxd3 Bxd3 Qxd3 
25   +0.00   00:08  46656K  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ c6 dxc6 bxc6 Qf3 Be7 Bxc6+ Nxc6 Qxc6+ Bd7 Qf3 O-O O-O Ng4 h3 Bxg5 hxg4 Rb8 Nc3 Qc8 Qd5 Bc6 Qc4 Bd7 Qd5 
26   -0.17   00:14 100510K  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ Bd7 Qe2 Be7 Nc3 Bxb5 Qxb5+ c6 dxc6 Nxc6 O-O O-O Qxb7 Nb4 Nge4 Nxc2 Rb1 Rc8 d3 Rc7 Qb5 Nb4 Nxf6+ gxf6 Be3 Re8 Qa4 Nxd3 
27   -0.17   00:18 138731K  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ c6 dxc6 bxc6 Qf3 Be7 Bxc6+ Nxc6 Qxc6+ Bd7 Qf3 Rc8 O-O Bc6 Qh3 O-O Nc3 h6 Nf3 Bd6 d3 e4 Nd4 Bxh2+ Qxh2 Qxd4 dxe4 Nxe4 Be3 Qd7 Nxe4 Bxe4 
28   +0.00   00:29 235498K  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ Bd7 Qe2 Be7 Nc3 Bxb5 Qxb5+ c6 dxc6 Nxc6 d3 O-O Qxb7 Nd4 O-O Nxc2 Rb1 Rb8 Qxa7 Nd4 Be3 Ra8 Qb7 Rb8 Qa6 Ra8 Qc4 Rc8 Qa6 Ra8 
29   -0.05   00:40 334348K  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ Bd7 Qe2 Be7 Nc3 Bxb5 Qxb5+ c6 dxc6 Nxc6 Qxb7 Nb4 Qb5+ Qd7 O-O Nxc2 Rb1 Qxb5 Nxb5 O-O b3 a6 Nc3 h6 Nf3 Bd6 d3 Rac8 Bb2 Nd4 Ne4 Nxe4 dxe4 Nxf3+ gxf3 
30   -0.15   00:59 509786K  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ Bd7 Qe2 Be7 Bxd7+ Qxd7 c4 c6 Nc3 O-O O-O cxd5 cxd5 Rad8 Nf3 Nxd5 Nxe5 Qe6 Re1 Rfe8 d4 Bf6 Bd2 Nxc3 Bxc3 Nc6 Qb5 Nxd4 Bxd4 Rxd4 Nf3 Re4 Qxb7 
31   -0.06   01:26 763726K  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bb4+ Bd2 Bc5 b4 Bd6 Nd4 O-O h3 Re8 Bc3 Qe7 Qe3 Bd7 a3 c6 dxc6 bxc6 Nd2 c5 bxc5 Bxc5 O-O Qe5 
32   -0.03   01:47 953251K  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bb4+ c3 Bd6 Nd4 O-O Be3 Bd7 Nd2 Qe7 N2b3 c5 dxc6 bxc6 c5 Be5 Qa6 Rfc8 O-O Ng4 g3 Bf6 Bf4 e3 fxe3 Nxe3 Rf3 Bxd4 Nxd4 
33   -0.11   03:09   1734M  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bb4+ c3 Bd6 Nd4 Bd7 Be3 O-O Nd2 Qe7 N2b3 a5 a4 Ng4 h3 Ne5 O-O Nd3 Nb5 Bxb5 axb5 Qe5 g3 Qf5 c5 Be5 Qg4 Qxg4 hxg4 a4 
34   -0.12   03:49   2113M  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bb4+ c3 Bd6 Nd4 Bd7 Be3 Qe7 Nd2 O-O N2b3 c5 dxc6 bxc6 c5 Be5 Qa6 Bxd4 Bxd4 Nd5 O-O Nf4 Be3 Nd3 Na5 Qe6 b4 f5 Qb7 
35   -0.14   04:36   2533M  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bb4+ c3 Bd6 Nd4 O-O Be3 Re8 h3 Bd7 Nd2 c6 dxc6 bxc6 a4 Qe7 b4 c5 bxc5 Bxc5 Nb5 Rac8 Bxc5 Rxc5 O-O a6 Nd4 e3 fxe3 Ne4 Nxe4 Qxe4 Kh1 Qxe3 
36   -0.18   06:38   3646M  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bb4+ c3 Bd6 Nd4 O-O Be3 Re8 h3 Bd7 Na3 c6 dxc6 bxc6 Nac2 Qc7 O-O a5 Rfd1 Reb8 b3 Bh2+ Kh1 Be5 a4 c5 Nb5 Bxb5 axb5 Bxc3 Rab1 Rd8 Rxd8+ Rxd8 
37   -0.24   10:23   5723M  d5 exd5 Na5 d3 h6 Nf3 e4 Qe2 Nxc4 dxc4 Bb4+ c3 Bd6 Nd4 O-O Be3 Bd7 Nd2 Qe7 N2b3 c5 dxc6 bxc6 c5 Be5 Qa6 Bxd4 Bxd4 Nd5 O-O Nf4 Be3 Nd3 Rab1 f5 f3 Qe6 Rfd1 Bc8 Qa4 Bd7 Kh1 Rfb8 Bd4 Qe7 
38   -0.32   28:48  16418M  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ Bd7 Qe2 Be7 Nf3 Nxd5 Bxd7+ Qxd7 Nxe5 Qe6 Nf3 Qxe2+ Kxe2 Bf6 Nc3 O-O-O Nxd5 Rxd5 d3 Re8+ Kd1 Nc6 Rb1 Rb5 a3 Nd4 Re1 Kd7 Rxe8 Kxe8 Nxd4 Bxd4 Ke2 Rb6 a4 Kd7 Be3 Rxb2 Rxb2 Bxb2 Bxa7 b6 Kf3 g6 h3 
39   -0.34   35:51  20151M  d5 exd5 Na5 Bb5+ c6 dxc6 bxc6 Bd3 Ng4 Ne4 f5 Be2 h5 h3 fxe4 hxg4 Bc5 Nc3 Qd4 O-O O-O Qe1 hxg4 g3 Bf5 Nd1 Nb7 c3 Qd7 b4 Bb6 a4 a5 b5 cxb5 Bxb5 Qc7 Ba3 Nd6 Ne3 Bxe3 Qxe3 Rac8 Qg5 Rf6 Rab1 Nc4 Bxc4+ Qxc4 

[Uri Blass]

I disagree with lyudmil and I think that at least in 99% of the cases engines play the right move if you give them a long time to calculate.

if there are some cases when they do mistakes you can find it by the evaluation and if white play the right move based on long analysis in every move but black get the advantage after move 15 or move 20(at least 0.1 pawns for black) then it is better to do analysis to see where white went wrong in order to fix the book.

Starting point if we build a book for white is simply play the moves the engines suggest after a long analysis for white and moves that are in the database for black.

Same idea if we build an opening book for black but in the last case I suggest to try to fix only cases when the evaluation for white is at least 0.5 pawn for white because small advantage for white does not mean that black did a mistake.

That seems wrong. Engines' PV in a position, especially in the openings, are useless after 2-3 displayed half-moves. Even identical engines will play the expected reply only 70%-80% of the time, the next in PV 50%-60%, and so on decreasing. Engines have only a very fragmented outlook of the game, changing randomly "plans" and PV lines. Books need a trustworthy PV of 20 or so half-moves, a thing engines don't give.

The books are not built by leaving long analyzes of openings. Most lines are chosen by outcome statistics. Most games used are fast, for example PlayChess 1' and 3' per game.

I did not say to trust engine pv's except the first half move.
The idea is to analyze every position and pick the first move in the pv.

That's what I was saying, engine hops from old PV to new PV, a new PV which it didn't expect in the old PV, often ending during the opening in a bad position against a book. Lyudmil offered a good early position which SF evaluates at 16-26 cp after a long analysis, while really it was 45-50 cp as expected score goes. I don't think an early opening can be analyzed well having a crappy PV at the second-third half-move and the outcome being very far away. Maybe a combination of human planning the opening and an engine for blunder check is worth pursuing.

I think that in big majority of cases chess engines have a right move after long analysis.
Right score at the early stage is not important.

I do not say it is going to be 100% right but using the evaluation of the engine not in the early stage can help to discover mistakes in the book.

more than 0.1 pawn for black(in the book for stockfish as white) or more than 0.5 pawn for white(in the book for stockfish as black) strongly suggest that some move in the line was not correct and you may try longer analysis to see what came wrong but I believe that in most cases you will not have one of these cases even if you use 0.0 pawns and 0.4 pawns instead of 0.1 pawn for black and 0.5 pawns for white.

If you think that there are many holes in a book that you build in this way when every move is at least result of one hour of analysis by stockfish then show me the holes and not a short line but some long lines when every move is based on the choice of the engine after at least one hour and the evaluation at the end of the line suggest that the choice of the program is not good.

I can add that the example of some opening that starts with 1.e4 e5 is not relevant assuming stockfish does not play 1.e4 as white and does not play 1.e4 e5 as black because stockfish will never get this opening when I generate a book based on stockfish's moves.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Another one.

[d]r1bqkbnr/1ppp1ppp/p1n5/1B2p3/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 0 4

Ruy Lopez, Morphy Defence/a6

Which is the best move here?

As, according to my SF, Bc6, the Exchange Variation, is the best continuation, with Ba4 ranking many centipawns behind.

So, if I have to trust SF in the opening, I have to play Bc6 every single time.

Those positions have been analysed extensively by humans, and it is proven beyond any doubt that Ba4 is better than Bc6, much better indeed.

How do you want me to trust SF here?

I know where to trust SF: in open middlegames and endgames with abundant tactics; there the engine excels.

However, I do not trust SF in closed positions, specific theoretical endgames, as well as in a large bunch of openings.
The search depth and understanding of engines for such positions is simply too low.

On my machine, SF picks Ba4 in about 2 minutes and sticks with it.

Code: Select all

Searching: r1bqkbnr/1ppp1ppp/p1n5/1B2p3/4P3/5N2/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQkq - 0 1
infinite: 0 ponder: 0 time: 0 increment: 0 moves to go: 0

 1   +0.44   00:00     107  Bxc6 dxc6 
 2   +0.44   00:00     152  Bxc6 dxc6 
 3   +0.44   00:00     194  Bxc6 dxc6 Nxe5 
 4   +0.64   00:00     259  Bxc6 dxc6 Nxe5 a5 
 5   +0.58   00:00     429  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 f6 O-O 
 6   +0.78   00:00     985  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 f6 O-O c5 
 7   +0.65   00:00    2723  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bg4 O-O Bxf3 Qxf3 
 8   +0.78   00:00    3731  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bg4 O-O Bxf3 Qxf3 Qd4 
 9   +0.76   00:00   12738  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bg4 O-O Ne7 Nbd2 Ng6 h3 
10   +0.33   00:00   38913  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 O-O Nf6 Bg5 O-O Nbd2 Bg4 h3 
11   +0.19   00:00   70629  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 O-O Ne7 Be3 O-O Nbd2 f6 h3 Be6 a3 Ng6 
12   +0.35   00:00   83553  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 O-O Ne7 Be3 O-O Nbd2 f6 c4 Bg4 
13   +0.36   00:00  109771  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 O-O Ne7 Be3 O-O Nbd2 Bg4 c4 h6 c5 Bxf3 Qxf3 
14   +0.22   00:00  416514  Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 O-O Ne7 Be3 O-O a3 f6 c4 b6 Nc3 Be6 h3 Ng6 
15   +0.27   00:00  651414  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Qc4 Ne7 a4 b5 Qa2 Bg4 Nbd2 Bc5 h3 
16   +0.27   00:00  848947  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Qc3 O-O Nc4 b5 Nxd6 cxd6 Rfe1 
17   +0.34   00:00   1091K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Qc3 O-O Nc4 Qd7 Rfd1 Kh8 Nxd6 
18   +0.33   00:00   1736K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Rfd1 c5 Qc3 b6 Nc4 O-O Qd3 Bxc4 Qxc4+ Kh8 Qb3 
19   +0.42   00:00   2488K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Rfd1 O-O Nc4 Bxh2+ Kxh2 Qxd4 Bxd4 Bxc4 Bc5 
20   +0.31   00:00   3261K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Qc3 O-O Nc4 Qd7 h3 Kh8 Nxd6 cxd6 Nd4 
21   +0.34   00:00   5335K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Rfd1 O-O Qc3 Qb8 h3 h6 a3 Bf7 Nc4 c5 e5 
22   +0.38   00:01   7929K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Ne7 Nbd2 Be6 Rfd1 O-O Nc4 Bxh2+ Kxh2 Qxd4 Rxd4 c5 Rdd1 Bxc4 Bxc5 Rae8 
23   +0.45   00:03  24213K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Ne7 Rfd1 O-O Nc4 Bxh2+ Kxh2 Qxd4 Rxd4 c5 Rdd1 Bxc4 Bxc5 
24   +0.41   00:04  37009K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Nh6 Bxh6 gxh6 Re1 Qe7 e5 fxe5 Nxe5 O-O Nd2 Be6 Nef3 Rae8 Ne4 Qg7 Nxd6 cxd6 Qxd6 Qxb2 
25   +0.22   00:05  45632K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Ne7 Qc3 Qd7 Nc4 Bxc4 Qxc4 Ng6 Nd4 O-O-O Nf5 Rhe8 Rad1 Qe6 Nxd6+ Rxd6 
26   +0.29   00:07  59044K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Qe7 c4 c5 Qc3 O-O-O Rad1 Kb8 Rfe1 Bf7 h3 Nh6 b3 Bg6 Bxh6 gxh6 
27   +0.34   00:09  76246K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Ne7 Qc3 Qd7 Rad1 Ng6 Nd4 O-O-O N2b3 Ne5 f3 Kb8 Rfe1 Rhe8 Nxe6 Qxe6 Na5 Nf7 Nc4 c5 Nxd6 cxd6 
28   +0.27   00:12 101304K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Ne7 Rfd1 Ng6 Qc3 Qe7 Nd4 Bb4 Qd3 Ne5 Qe2 Bxd2 Rxd2 Nc4 Nxe6 Qxe6 Rd4 Nd6 Rad1 O-O 
29   +0.34   00:19 167228K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Nh6 Bxh6 gxh6 Qe3 Qe7 Rfe1 Rg8 e5 Qg7 g3 fxe5 Nxe5 Bxe5 Qxe5 Qxe5 Rxe5 O-O-O Ne4 Bd5 f4 Rge8 Nf6 Rxe5 fxe5 
30   +0.35   00:24 212975K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bd6 d4 exd4 Qxd4 f6 Be3 Be6 Nbd2 Nh6 Bxh6 gxh6 Qe3 Qe7 Rfe1 Rg8 g3 Bc5 Qxh6 O-O-O e5 Rg6 Qh4 Bg4 exf6 Qxf6 Qxf6 Rxf6 Ne4 Bxf2+ Kxf2 
31   +0.21   00:54 492774K  Bxc6 dxc6 O-O Bg4 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 Ne7 Bb2 Ng6 d4 f6 Nc4 O-O Ne3 Re8 dxe5 Nxe5 Nxe5 Bxe5 Bxe5 fxe5 Qxd8 Rexd8 Rfd1 Rd4 f3 Rdd8 Rxd8+ Rxd8 
32   +0.22   02:06   1124M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Qe2 f6 Nc4 b5 Ne3 c5 Nf5 g6 Nxd6 cxd6 Bh6 Re8 axb5 axb5 Rxa8 Qxa8 h3 d5 
33   +0.22   02:38   1382M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Qe2 Qe7 Rd1 f6 Bb2 Bf7 Nc4 Nc5 Ne3 Rae8 Nf5 Qd7 h3 Ne6 d4 exd4 N3xd4 Nxd4 Bxd4 
34   +0.20   05:19   2742M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Qe2 Qe7 Rd1 f6 Bb2 Bf7 Nh4 g6 Nhf3 Nc5 Qe1 Rad8 h3 Kh8 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Rfe8 Qe3 Ne6 
35   +0.22   05:56   3087M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Qe2 Qe7 Rd1 f6 Nf1 Bc5 Bb2 Rad8 h3 Rfe8 Bc3 Bf7 Ne3 Bxe3 Qxe3 c5 Nh4 Be6 Nf5 Bxf5 exf5 b6 Bd2 
36   +0.17   07:21   3900M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4 Qe7 Bg5 f6 Bd2 Nc5 Nh4 g6 Qg4 Qg7 Rfb1 b5 axb5 axb5 Be3 f5 exf5 Rxa1 Rxa1 gxf5 Qxg7+ Kxg7 
37   +0.19   09:05   4896M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Bb2 f6 h3 Qe7 Re1 Bf7 Nh4 g6 Nhf3 Nc5 d4 exd4 Bxd4 Nd7 Qe2 Rad8 Rad1 c5 Bb2 Ne5 Nxe5 Bxe5 Bxe5 Qxe5 
38   +0.19   10:00   5446M  Ba4 Nf6 O-O Be7 Bxc6 dxc6 d3 Bd6 Nbd2 Be6 b3 O-O a4 Nd7 Bb2 f6 h3 Qe7 Re1 Bf7 Nh4 g6 Nhf3 Nc5 d4 exd4 Bxd4 Nd7 Qe2 Rad8 Rad1 c5 Bb2 Ne5 Nxe5 Bxe5 Bxe5 Qxe5 
Nodes: 5446754273
Nodes/second: 9077863
Best move: Ba4
Ponder move: Nf6

What do you mean sticks?

Only to recapture on c6 2 moves later...

If you do not save the pair of bishops in the Ruy Lopez, you hardly have winning chances.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

I even do not know what organization ICCF is, but, it should have suspended its existence the day powerful computers appeared.

Would you care to explain this statement ?

...and please try to give it some thought before posting more 'nuanced' thoughts or treating all correspondence players alike for that matter.

Hi Ron.

I meant all correspondence players except you.

Seriously, in the future I will try to be more nuanced, I will say for example that the relevance of this organization should have been at least reconsidered, something like that, where is Graham to give me a good language advice?

You do not even imagine how much I actually respect people in general, even offending individuals. As your next is the mirror of you.

But:

- the only true chess is OTB chess, only in real-life conditions you can show what you actually can; this requires enormous energy, and that is why top sportsmen are so well-paid
- nothing wrong with correspondence chess, in the past it did provide added value, as longer thinking time is always beneficial
- nowadays, with the availability of powerful computers, it simply does not make sense anymore; no possibility to check who is using engine help and who not, and to what extent; as you know, ICCF is itself not clear if computer assistence should be allowed or not; I do not think you should get much credit, when you are assisted by powerful engines; if the engine assists you in choosing 2/3 of your moves, then only 1/3 of the overall credit is due to you, if you make even less moves on your own, you deserve even less credit.

- of course, there are correspondence players, who love the game, think on their own about every single move, sometimes use engine help, but in the end it is their move choice that makes it; I give full credit to those individuals; but, unfortunately, I think such individuals are not many

- My guess is that 70-80% of current correspondence players use primarily and foremost engine help, with some even not caring to very carefully look at the position, just feeding positions to computers and expecting answers; and, of course, buying as strong a hardware as possible; this is already not a knowledge competition, but a hardware competition; how would you explain that ICCF players with ratings inimaginably high actually have standard OTB elo somewhere in the range 500-600 points lower or even more? And that is a trend, not a particularity.

So that, for me, ICCF is really not an ideal organization.

That said, all my due respect to all honest correspondence players, who do love their activity, do love chess and analysis, and never or only very rarely use engine help, and that only when they are a bit bothered about that.