What to play against 1. d4 ?

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

As I have stated 1.c4 is the best move to disturb your weaker partner only.

Rigth, in that way I like to disturb SF 8.

I am afraid you like scandals.
I like more the facts based on the competitions of super GM.
Because super GM use their super chess knowledge AND the best chess engines too.

We have discussed this a thousand times, and I hate repeating myself.

I was rated 2200 more than 10 years ago. I started with 2000, but, when I started learning chess, I had been probably around 1800.

In the last 10 years I have studied and played chess 3 times more than before I reached 2200. If you multiply 400 elo X 3, you migth be able to figure out by yourself, if I migth be weak or strong.

Now, I am not playing, and my rating stays the same as 10 years ago, but that does not mean I am weak and have not made progress.

Official titles mean nothing. I hold a PhD in political science/european studies, but that does not make me a politician, does it? In the same way, I migth not be playing chess competitively, and lack official titles, and still be strong.

If you have any objections, suggest where SF went wrong.

@Nuno man, H dev and SF are weak, they miss too many vital moves.

[Henk]

I remember a chess trainer who bought latest version of a chess engine. But when he used it for analyzing his favorite Kings Indian variant he was disappointed.

O wait I just see that there is an identical post in Technical discussions.

[whereagles]

@Nuno man, H dev and SF are weak, they miss too many vital moves.

ahahah... I wish I was as "weak" as SF

[Lion]

Hello,

Are you kidding?

1.c4 e5 is a complete = for black.

Please provide a little deeper lines as to how white can gain an advantage?

rgds

Why should I be kidding?

1.c4 is simply the best move.
Until now I have sometimes claimed that 1.e4 is the best move, simply because people think either 1.e4 or 1.d4 is best, and a very big scandal will arise, when I claim 1.c4 is actually best. Better avoid that.

I can not of course go through all the possible lines, but, just a casual game with new SF 8 until I prove my case.

[pgn][Event "Blitz 2m+1s"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2016.11.03"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Lyudmil Tsvetkov, owner"]
[Black "Stockfish 8 64 POPCNT"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "A25"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[PlyCount "36"]
[EventDate "2016.??.??"]
[TimeControl "120+1"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. c4 {0} e5 {0.07/22 5} 2. Nc3 {2} Bb4 {0.05/22 8} 3. g3 {9}
Nf6 {-0.06/20 5} 4. Bg2 {4} O-O {0.06/22 1} 5. e4 {3} Nc6 {-0.12/19 2} 6. Nge2
{2} d6 {-0.11/22 1} 7. h3 {6} Bc5 {-0.09/20 5} 8. O-O {4} Be6 {-0.11/23 22} 9.
d3 {2} a6 {-0.07/22 2} 10. Kh2 {18} Nd4 {-0.08/18 4} 11. f4 {5} b5 {-0.09/20 10
} 12. f5 {14} Bd7 {-0.19/20 2} 13. b3 {10} c6 {-0.28/19 2} 14. g4 {1} h6 {-0.
25/20 5} 15. Bd2 {24} Nxe2 {-0.20/20 8} 16. Qxe2 {12} Bd4 {-0.20/18 2} 17. Rad1
{19} b4 {-0.07/20 2} 18. Na4 {12} c5 {0.00/28 0} *

[/pgn]

I was looking at eval while the game was played, and stopped the game as soon as eval started largely favouring white, with this I have proven my case, no interest in winning the game.

As you see from eval, up until move 18...c5, SF eval is either 0.0, or, more often, favours black by a sligth margin. On move 19, however, I saw SF show +50cps white advantage from the 0.0 score it showed the previous move.

[d]r2q1rk1/3b1pp1/p2p1n1p/2p1pP2/NpPbP1P1/1P1P3P/P2BQ1BK/3R1R2 w - - 0 19

that is the end position, if you want, analyse it, but most probably white is winning.

White has been winning throughout, it is only that current top engines have very primitive eval, and search without good eval in complex middlegame positions means nothing.

Well, the best order move IMHO for black to = is to play Nf6 instead of Bb4.
So how does white gain an advantage after 2... Nf6 ?

[corres]

[quote="Lyudmil Tsvetkov"]
Official titles mean nothing.
[/quote]
Official titles meaning nothing if these titles do not back up with results of competitions several times until now.
I think at least the super GM of nowadays have a lot of evidence that they are really SUPER GM. So their opinion is more well-founded then others.

[PK]

If Stockfish ventured ...Bb4, it should not waste time for repositioning it to c5. This leaves the only logical course of action:

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Bb4 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 0-0 5.e4 Bxc3

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Hello,

Are you kidding?

1.c4 e5 is a complete = for black.

Please provide a little deeper lines as to how white can gain an advantage?

rgds

Why should I be kidding?

1.c4 is simply the best move.
Until now I have sometimes claimed that 1.e4 is the best move, simply because people think either 1.e4 or 1.d4 is best, and a very big scandal will arise, when I claim 1.c4 is actually best. Better avoid that.

I can not of course go through all the possible lines, but, just a casual game with new SF 8 until I prove my case.

[pgn][Event "Blitz 2m+1s"]
[Site "Microsoft"]
[Date "2016.11.03"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Lyudmil Tsvetkov, owner"]
[Black "Stockfish 8 64 POPCNT"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "A25"]
[Annotator "owner"]
[PlyCount "36"]
[EventDate "2016.??.??"]
[TimeControl "120+1"]

{512MB, OWNER-PC} 1. c4 {0} e5 {0.07/22 5} 2. Nc3 {2} Bb4 {0.05/22 8} 3. g3 {9}
Nf6 {-0.06/20 5} 4. Bg2 {4} O-O {0.06/22 1} 5. e4 {3} Nc6 {-0.12/19 2} 6. Nge2
{2} d6 {-0.11/22 1} 7. h3 {6} Bc5 {-0.09/20 5} 8. O-O {4} Be6 {-0.11/23 22} 9.
d3 {2} a6 {-0.07/22 2} 10. Kh2 {18} Nd4 {-0.08/18 4} 11. f4 {5} b5 {-0.09/20 10
} 12. f5 {14} Bd7 {-0.19/20 2} 13. b3 {10} c6 {-0.28/19 2} 14. g4 {1} h6 {-0.
25/20 5} 15. Bd2 {24} Nxe2 {-0.20/20 8} 16. Qxe2 {12} Bd4 {-0.20/18 2} 17. Rad1
{19} b4 {-0.07/20 2} 18. Na4 {12} c5 {0.00/28 0} *

[/pgn]

I was looking at eval while the game was played, and stopped the game as soon as eval started largely favouring white, with this I have proven my case, no interest in winning the game.

As you see from eval, up until move 18...c5, SF eval is either 0.0, or, more often, favours black by a sligth margin. On move 19, however, I saw SF show +50cps white advantage from the 0.0 score it showed the previous move.

[d]r2q1rk1/3b1pp1/p2p1n1p/2p1pP2/NpPbP1P1/1P1P3P/P2BQ1BK/3R1R2 w - - 0 19

that is the end position, if you want, analyse it, but most probably white is winning.

White has been winning throughout, it is only that current top engines have very primitive eval, and search without good eval in complex middlegame positions means nothing.

Well, the best order move IMHO for black to = is to play Nf6 instead of Bb4.
So how does white gain an advantage after 2... Nf6 ?

You are not reading this thread.
Mainline is 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.e4

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

If Stockfish ventured ...Bb4, it should not waste time for repositioning it to c5. This leaves the only logical course of action:

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Bb4 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 0-0 5.e4 Bxc3

This is even weaker than Bc5. I have played a lot with this structure, sometimes engines capturing on c3.

White basically proceeds in the same way, while keeping the pair of bishops.

[PK]

The engines don't see that it is inverted Rossolimo:

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Bb4 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 0-0 5.e4 Bxc3 6.bxc3 c6 7. Ne2 d5
1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Bb4 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 0-0 5.e4 Bxc3 6.dxc3 d6 7. Ne2 Be6 8.b3 a5

The point is not playing Nc6, which just sits there and blocks black pawns.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Official titles mean nothing.

Official titles meaning nothing if these titles do not back up with results of competitions several times until now.
I think at least the super GM of nowadays have a lot of evidence that they are really SUPER GM. So their opinion is more well-founded then others.

Man, I do not defend myself, I defend 1.c4. Please, do not stay agasp, when in 20 years' time top engines suddenly say: best first move, 1.c4.

Btw., you certainly know that both Kasparov and Fischer occasionally opened with 1.c4, but never with 1.d4. Here you have your strong players and their opinions.

What concerns engines however, as of today, they are mixed-up entities what concerns the opening. 10 years ago Fritz played 1.e4 d5. Now Sf and Komodo say 1...d5 is very bad for black. Couple of years ago SF said: 1.d4 is better than 1.e4. Currently its opinion has shifted, and it prefers 1.e4 instead. Now, according to Cerebellum, SF wavers between 1...e6 and 1...e5 as an answer to 1.e4. A year ago it claimed 1...e6 is the better answer. It will take years until Sf discovers that actually 1...c5 is best answer on 1.e4. Etc., etc.

You can not rely on engines for the opening, until they have successfully resolved all their mg and eg positions, as the opening score depends on the mg score. The mg score, on the other hand, depends on the eg score. Top engines are still unable to solve a significant number of eg, mostly fortress positions, and an innumerable quantity of mg positions, so how do you want that they find out the correct opening moves?

After thinking a while and eye-measuring what important eval terms top engines have implemented, and what still remain to be implemented, I think top engines are somewhere just completing the first third of their road to perfection.