Muller, Hyatt, Schroder and other elderly

[bob]

Here's a simple story, with a strong moral hidden inside.

A young man graduated from college, spent ten years out int he world working. At his ten year class reunion he ran into one of his best friends in college and told him the following:

You know, when I graduated from college, I had learned a lot of things, one of which just how stupid my old man was. I never agreed with his decisions, his suggestions, his advice or anything. But you know, 10 years later, it is amazing how much the old man has learned. Now I agree with almost everything he says.

young != wise.

[kgburcham]

Here's a simple story, with a strong moral hidden inside.

A young man graduated from college, spent ten years out int he world working. At his ten year class reunion he ran into one of his best friends in college and told him the following:

You know, when I graduated from college, I had learned a lot of things, one of which just how stupid my old man was. I never agreed with his decisions, his suggestions, his advice or anything. But you know, 10 years later, it is amazing how much the old man has learned. Now I agree with almost everything he says.
young != wise.

How long ago did you learn what this story says? me too

your story is off topic Robert.
The old men here are not going to pursue the worlds strongest program,
they have been there done that.
Could they assist a person in his pursuit, he wont want help.
Of course Vas blasted in here and asked some questions but he got what he pursued, number one for a while.
Same as Houdart.

Of course I have heard all the comments about not starting from scratch, etc. etc.

My point is there will be others in the future that will produce a 3200 world champion and they wont care about rule #2. I am not sure you or I will see it.
kgburcham

[bob]

Here's a simple story, with a strong moral hidden inside.

A young man graduated from college, spent ten years out int he world working. At his ten year class reunion he ran into one of his best friends in college and told him the following:

You know, when I graduated from college, I had learned a lot of things, one of which just how stupid my old man was. I never agreed with his decisions, his suggestions, his advice or anything. But you know, 10 years later, it is amazing how much the old man has learned. Now I agree with almost everything he says.
young != wise.

How long ago did you learn what this story says? me too

your story is off topic Robert.
The old men here are not going to pursue the worlds strongest program,
they have been there done that.
Could they assist a person in his pursuit, he wont want help.
Of course Vas blasted in here and asked some questions but he got what he pursued, number one for a while.
Same as Houdart.

Of course I have heard all the comments about not starting from scratch, etc. etc.

My point is there will be others in the future that will produce a 3200 world champion and they wont care about rule #2. I am not sure you or I will see it.
kgburcham

I have this high hope that MOST computer science types develop a measure of ethics as they go through a good CS program. It is generally a required topic for any CS program that is accredited already. There are other examples of this kind of behavior. For example, music. Why not copy the melody that you like from another song and then write new words. This happens now and again, particularly when someone wants to do a humorous song that sounds like the original. But the music can't be "stolen and used". There are copyright laws. The idea of copying the work of someone else, then modifying it to make it a little better here and there really violates any responsible code of ethics if you then claim that modified code is your original work (ala Houdart, for example, who has made that claim repeatedly even though it has been thoroughly proven to be 100% false).

One can only hope that future generations retain an operational moral compass, otherwise all is lost. I have more faith in humanity than that, although there will always be some number of criminals it seems, since we see no evidence that theft, murder, or any other criminal act is slowly dropping toward zero.

[jhellis3]

I get what you are saying, but music probably wasn't the best example:



Perhaps investment banking....


BTW, I'm not sure what the point of young != wise was, as old != wise either.

[rbarreira]

Most here are tired of reading how the old programmers feel.
When these three have gone to shoot pool with St. Peter then the young and new wont have these same feelings and complaints.
I wonder how the young and new will manage their tournaments.
I wonder if the young and new will care about reverse engineering.
I wonder if the young and new will use words like "stealing code".
The next 5 years will be interesting.
Muller and Hyatt---I suspect that most of what you say is true, I suspect that most of your ideas and opinions are correct but do you really expect the young and new to care about your complaints?
Someday someone might ask "do you remember Hyatt and Muller", and the young will answer, "who"
kgburcham

I do not like you.

Haven't you noticed, I do not seek approval of this place.
kgburcham

Sure, but that doesn't mean you have to be a disrespectful ass.

[Rebel]

One can only hope that future generations retain an operational moral compass, otherwise all is lost. I have more faith in humanity than that, although there will always be some number of criminals it seems, since we see no evidence that theft, murder, or any other criminal act is slowly dropping toward zero.

Oh Bob, what a comparison

Basically your message (moral compass) to future generations, "Start from scratch because I have done so, you new programmer are obliged to reinvent all wheels because I had to, you are obliged to suffer equally".

The "My will will be done" attitude puts you in the center of attention while the world around you has changed. I have news for you (although it should not be news to you, but self-understood), computer chess is not only about you and me and everybody else, but mainly about progress.

It's perfectly fine (and logic) if new generations start from strong free open sources, we only need new rules to avoid tournamemts to change into clone festivals. That should be the moral compass AD 2014.

[poet]

Even though the title was a bit rude, and the threads delivery even more so.... there is at least some truth here.

The older generation clearly is mostly struggling to come to terms with Society 2.0.
The new generation coming up now was raised on open-source, sharing, quick access. I'm not just talking computer chess here, its spreading to all areas of life, slowly but surely.

Might take a few generations to settle down to something we can all accept and work with, but ideas like open-source are out of the bottle now and it doesn't look like there's any going back.
Not that those who built their power and influence on the old ways of doing things are taking it quietly, look at the draconian moves from Hollywood, using its influence and paid government lackies to raid peoples home for sharing an mp3, huge fines, threats, coercion, corruption..... NONE of which is working for it, the new generation is completely turning its back on the old ways of doing things and searching out new ways, forcing the market to change (youtube, Itunes, Netflix etc) or die.

All things to bear in mind.

[JVMerlino]

Most here are tired of reading how the old programmers feel.
When these three have gone to shoot pool with St. Peter then the young and new wont have these same feelings and complaints.
I wonder how the young and new will manage their tournaments.
I wonder if the young and new will care about reverse engineering.
I wonder if the young and new will use words like "stealing code".
The next 5 years will be interesting.
Muller and Hyatt---I suspect that most of what you say is true, I suspect that most of your ideas and opinions are correct but do you really expect the young and new to care about your complaints?
Someday someone might ask "do you remember Hyatt and Muller", and the young will answer, "who"
kgburcham

I do not like you.

Haven't you noticed, I do not seek approval of this place.
kgburcham

Sure, but that doesn't mean you have to be a disrespectful ass.

Agreed. Because when Don passed away, I don't quite remember us all celebrating that we had one less elderly person to deal with.

jm

[hgm]

It's perfectly fine (and logic) if new generations start from strong free open sources, we only need new rules to avoid tournamemts to change into clone festivals. That should be the moral compass AD 2014.

Although I think we are striving for the same overall purpose, I don't understand why you are still insisting new rules would be required for this. As I showed in the other threads the 'new' rules of the CSVN are not really different from the 'old' rule #2 of the CSVN as was applied in Yokohama. When I pointed this out to you, your responses were (paraphrased):

In the case of CSVN: "the rules are more liberal, because they won't be applied".
In the case of ICGA: "ICGA members would never allow these liberal rules to be applied".

So it seems that the problem is not at all with the rules, but that (in your opinion) rules are meaningless in the first place, and what happens in practice has nothing to do with them, and is only determined by the opinion of some group of people. It is just that you seem to ascribe opposite attitudes to ICGA members and CSVN members (not based on any real proof, as far as I can see).

If this is true, tinkering with the rules can achieve nothing.

Btw, I am kind of puzzled that people seem to think I would have anything against open-source. I don't, but I also don't think open-source is the issue here. The issue is whether people should be allowed to steal and lie. Is it realy the 'modern way' if I take Stockfish, change the name into 'Impossible Heron' (and not much else), claim I wrote it myself entirely, and enter it in WCCC / TCEC.

I don't think the so-called young people would in majority be happy with that at all. They just have not though out the problem well enough, and therefore still have the illusion that they could do much better than these elderly dynosaurs. They only think of the effect that relaxing the rules would have in the current situation, without foreseeing how the situation would change in response to the new rules. It is like in traffic: If speeding is a problem when only 60 mph is allowed, but 99% of the violators drives between 60 and 70 mph, thinking that you could eliminate the problem by raising the speed limit to 70 mph is an illusion. It won't decrease the number of speeding violation by a factor 100. It would in fact hardly reduce it at all.

[bob]

I get what you are saying, but music probably wasn't the best example:



Perhaps investment banking....


BTW, I'm not sure what the point of young != wise was, as old != wise either.

There are wise old folks. There are no wise young folks. The often-seen quote "good decisions come from experience, experience comes from bad decisions" explains why. You have to be around a while to make enough bad decisions so that you have enough experience to do better as you get older.