Wesley So Forfeited In U.S. Championship Round 9

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syzygy
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Re: Wesley So Forfeited In U.S. Championship Round 9

Post by syzygy »

AdminX wrote:
gbtami wrote:An interesting post from Dana Mackenzie http://www.danamackenzie.com/blog/?p=3538
Incident 2: "In the Aeroflot Open “B” tournament in Moscow, master Pavel Dvalishvili was forfeited (in a winning position against Orkhan Abdulov) for writing his moves down before he played them. Again, it appears that he received several warnings, or at least Abdulov complained to the arbiters several times, before the punishment was meted out."

Seems clear to me. :D
It seems incident 2 did not take place on the same day, but one week earlier:
http://chess-db.com/public/game.jsp?id= ... 6736.28735
(If you download the pgn, it has "20515.04.03" as the date.)

Black is clearly lost, but is awarded the win. No outrage to be found anywhere. Maybe Dvalishvili is not "special" and therefore nobody minds that the rules are applied to him?
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AdminX
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Re: Wesley So Forfeited In U.S. Championship Round 9

Post by AdminX »

syzygy wrote:
AdminX wrote:
gbtami wrote:An interesting post from Dana Mackenzie http://www.danamackenzie.com/blog/?p=3538
Incident 2: "In the Aeroflot Open “B” tournament in Moscow, master Pavel Dvalishvili was forfeited (in a winning position against Orkhan Abdulov) for writing his moves down before he played them. Again, it appears that he received several warnings, or at least Abdulov complained to the arbiters several times, before the punishment was meted out."

Seems clear to me. :D
It seems incident 2 did not take place on the same day, but one week earlier:
http://chess-db.com/public/game.jsp?id= ... 6736.28735
(If you download the pgn, it has "20515.04.03" as the date.)

Black is clearly lost, but is awarded the win. No outrage to be found anywhere. Maybe Dvalishvili is not "special" and therefore nobody minds that the rules are applied to him?
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"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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chessico
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Re: Wesley So Forfeited In U.S. Championship Round 9

Post by chessico »

syzygy wrote: Black is clearly lost, but is awarded the win. No outrage to be found anywhere. Maybe Dvalishvili is not "special" and therefore nobody minds that the rules are applied to him?
Has nothing to do with beeing special or not.
Wrtiting down your moves before actually moving is forbidden now as an anti-cheating measure. (a second person could read the moves and test them with a computer and eventually interfere.)

I agree with the people who see Akobian in a less favourable light: It would clearly have been enough to tell Wesley that he does not want him to do that, and this even before the game, as they know each other quite well and have been playing in the same team et sim. He waited for the chance to come and was happy not to lose against a clearly stronger and more talented player. (it is of course true that almost anything can be distracting to a player, but they were still in the opening!).
As far as the rules are concerned, I am still not sure if the "scribbling random nonsense"-rule applies when the player writes on a separate piece of paper, not the score sheet.
(btw, just to be clear and honest: I might very well feel disturbed by such an act of writing, too but I would of course tell my opponent, and not the arbiter.)
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fern
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Re: Wesley So Forfeited In U.S. Championship Round 9

Post by fern »

What is funny is that you talk of logic for an issue that has nothing to do with logic. Rules are not a result of logic, neither the will to apply them.
It amazes me you still see all this as a matter of "logic".
In any case, Ronald, this discussion has finally bothered me. We both made our points and we now we are going in circles.
If you consider Ok what Avokian did, that means that you and me have fully different ways to evaluate behavior. Let it be so..

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syzygy
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Re: Wesley So Forfeited In U.S. Championship Round 9

Post by syzygy »

chessico wrote:
syzygy wrote:Black is clearly lost, but is awarded the win. No outrage to be found anywhere. Maybe Dvalishvili is not "special" and therefore nobody minds that the rules are applied to him?
Has nothing to do with beeing special or not.
Wrtiting down your moves before actually moving is forbidden now as an anti-cheating measure. (a second person could read the moves and test them with a computer and eventually interfere.)
So there would not have been an outrage had So been forfeited for repeatedly writing down his move in advance? I kind of doubt that...

I also very much doubt that the rule against writing down moves in advance was intended as an anti-cheating measure. Unless I'm mistaken, FIDE has only recently started to look into anti-(computer-)cheating measures, whereas the rule forbidding to write down the move before playing it appears to date from around 2007. But feel free to cite a source.

It seems far more likely that the rule was introduced to avoid that players change their mind after writing down the move. If a player writes down a move, thinks again, crosses out the move and plays a different move, then he is basically analysing the game with the help of pencil and paper.

Same thing with scribbling notes. Maybe it is innocent, maybe it is not. The opponent cannot know, so it is distracting. The solution is easy: forbid it altogether. Not a big deal, not difficult to follow, and a clear rule is clear.
I agree with the people who see Akobian in a less favourable light: It would clearly have been enough to tell Wesley that he does not want him to do that, and this even before the game, as they know each other quite well and have been playing in the same team et sim.
Ehm, if the opponent is Wesley So people should ask him before the game starts to please stick to the rules?

Or do you mean that Akobian must have known about So's tendency to write notes and therefore had a duty to remind So of the rules? Why do you expect more from Akobian than from So? Because So is just a child, or because he is top 10, or is there another reason?

Before the game started, the arbiter had alreadty told So twice not to do it again and had made it clear that a third time would result in forfeit of the game. It was not enough. Why do you think So would have listened to Akobian, if he did not listen to the clear words of the arbiter, and he had been laughing away for years all the warnings that he had received from his coach and friends?
syzygy
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Re: Wesley So Forfeited In U.S. Championship Round 9

Post by syzygy »

fern wrote:What is funny is that you talk of logic for an issue that has nothing to do with logic. Rules are not a result of logic, neither the will to apply them.
It amazes me you still see all this as a matter of "logic".
In any case, Ronald, this discussion has finally bothered me. We both made our points and we now we are going in circles.
If you consider Ok what Avokian did, that means that you and me have fully different ways to evaluate behavior. Let it be so..
How do you feel about So's good friend Shankland who complained first?
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fern
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Re: Wesley So Forfeited In U.S. Championship Round 9

Post by fern »

As I said in a post in this same thread, THAT is the reason I do not go to chess clubs, because in them there are not only Avokian kind of guys, but also the other you mention. There are too many people like that. I do not know them personally, I am not a US citizen, I do not follow chess tournaments there or elsewhere. So If you say that other player did the same, then I apply him the same evaluation.
Please, put them all in a file to receive in order my disdain.

My best
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syzygy
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Re: Wesley So Forfeited In U.S. Championship Round 9

Post by syzygy »

SzG wrote:I wonder if I'd be forfeited if I wrote down on a separate piece of paper: Don't forget granny's birthday.
You'd most likely get a warning first.
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fern
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Re: Wesley So Forfeited In U.S. Championship Round 9

Post by fern »

Very probable you would....
The suffocating atmosphere of a chess club or worst., a tournament, where there is not an atom of common sense, friendship, politeness, nothing but mutual hatred, disdain, opportunism and bad manners expulsed me of that environment very soon.
If I play a human being, I want to feel I am capable of talking to the adversary, say Hi, drink together, making jokes, etc. The other way, the mortal seriousness and all the rest I mentioned just because there are 50 buck on the table to get or not, well, it looks to me that it does not fit with the nature of a simple GAME. Tennis player are not better, but at least they are competing for serious money.

Fern
syzygy
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Re: Wesley So Forfeited In U.S. Championship Round 9

Post by syzygy »

fern wrote:If I play a human being, I want to feel I am capable of talking to the adversary, say Hi, drink together, making jokes, etc.
I'm afraid only few serious chess players can relate to you. I suppose you allow take backs, too.