Sloppy 0.1.1 released

[Ryan Benitez]

Sloppy is not Toga and Toga is not Fruit.

And George W. Bush went to war in Iraq not for oil but for freedom sake.

Now we know.......

Toga is not Fruit

Very funny....very very very funny......

This isn't CTF, so I won't get started on politics.

Yes...better not. Don't want you to fall through the ice.....

You must be way behind in the computer chess world. Because if you weren't, you'd realize there's noticeable differences in how Toga and Fruit play, as well as a difference in strength. That doesn't happen unless there's considerable differences in code.

How much code needs to be the same for you and which parts?

I think you better take a look at both sources before make such sweeping generalisations.

I realize you're mad because you can't write closed source programs that are strong enough for anyone to notice, After all, if all programs had to be closed source, the general strength of chess engines would be much lower and it would be easier for you to make some money with weaker engines.

How so? Because we would nopt get these....?

Azaad (?/Rybka), Bionic (Hans Secelle, Albrecht Heeffer/Crafty), Capachess (Wilfredo J Malave Davila/TSCP), Christine_T (Orlando Mouchel/Fruit), Confess (?/?), Deep<9> (Denis Grafen/Chess Tiger, Pepito), Dick Skinner (?/?), ElChinito (Eugenio Castillo Jimenez, Pascal Tang/Crafty), Enano (Oscar Anibal Corona G/TSCP), Goofy (?/Greko), Gnd0 (Syed Kamall Basar/Rybka, Naum), HardwareHarveyX55 (?/Hiarcs), Hydra (?/Fruit), Kerostave (?/Fruit, Toga), LaPetite / LaGrande / Voyager (Dr. Gabrielle Müller/Crfaty), LordKing (Carlo Pivotto/Fruit), LuiZa (Marco Artale/Faile), Moga (?/Toga), Monster, Nr5 (Horst Stör/Fruit), Ocha (?/Rybka), OldBlindDog (Bill Oatman/Arasan), Peter (Peter Plunkett/Rybka), Quaestor V (José Franco Zenon/GreKo), Rashess (Mehdi Niakouei/Pharaon), Rocket (?/Rybka), Rocky, Rucsil (?/Rybka), Sally6 (?/Nejmet), Siboney (Francisco Rivera/Pepito, Cerebro), Squash (Josh Haglund/TSCP), Tec_Kika (?/?), Tommy (?/?), Tuxedo (Ananth Shrinivas S/TSCP), Ultima (Chinmay Kulkarni/?), Wincraft (Winfred Craft/?)

I suppose that's why you call the GPL the General Plagarists License. But as you have the right to proprietary software, we have the right to free software. So deal with it.

I believe we live in a dishonest world where temptation rules rational thought. It's a bit like needing oil really. How are the gas prices in the US btw?

Never mind....you could spend your money in a different way. I won't get acid rain either......

http://www.thelinuxshop.co.uk/catalog/index.php

These thing are NOT free as in "free beer". These things are free as in free to sell.



You too could look like a square.......only $20 to the free GPL community.

http://www.gnu.org/gear/gplv3-tshirt.html

Why bother with scissors.....grow that hair..."man".

http://www.gnu.org/gear/gplv3-hoodie.html

I wish Richard Stallman would visit these boards, he'd have a fit.

Good. Let's hope it's terminal.

Christopher

I know you have good intent, we have talked before and I know you are a good guy. I just think that Sloppy is the wrong engine to focus on.

Ryan

[Dann Corbit]

I think I can understand the tables above. If these are "secrets" of a chess program and I don't use them or learn from them, others will. Like Bob Hyatt, Vasik ,Friz Morten, Chrilly Donninger,Mayer Kahler.

Rasjid

Learn all you want. I think that's why they are out there. Copy them verbatum? That is a somewhat different concept.

Well put it this way.....by your own logic you better steal everything thats not nailed down around you before someone else does.

Are you saying that those authors are thieves?

Yes or no will suffice as an answer......



Christopher

Almost every program has a piece square table.
Do you think that every constant in a piece square table was independently researched and calculated from first principles?

Every single program uses either an alpha beta search or MTD(f) or a variant of those (in fact, they are proven to belong to the same class by a research paper). Anyway, only one person invented alpha/beta and only one person invented MTD(f) but everyone uses them.

I will state that there is no shame whatsoever in using someone else's idea, unless you claim that it was your invention or unless you have violated some agreement in doing so.

The author of Sloppy has done absolutely nothing wrong. Not morally, not academically, not scientifically. The way he did things is the way that you are *supposed* to do them.

Quite frankly, the clone hunters are a far bigger problem than the cloners are.

I do not think that the author of sloppy did something wrong but
I see no reason to start from exactly the same piece square table as another program.

I believe that slightly different piece square tables will not lead to significant change in playing strength.

Uri

Indeed, people will tend to tweak their piece square table over time to tune it to their program. But a thing like a piece square table is a trivial idea. If anyone is upset by someone else having the same or very similar constants in their piece square table, I would ask them:
"Where did your constants come from?"

I am sure at some point, they looked at what other people were doing. They took the ideas they liked best and used them in their program.

There are several programs that have piece square tables that came from a common source. I have seen peice square tables published in chess papers. Things like these add nothing new and no originality to a chess program and if using an idea like that disqualifies chess programs then almost all of them are disqualified because almost all programs use piece square tables. And yet clearly there is a single inventor of the piece square table in chess programs. Should he be the only one to be able to use the idea?

No one is talking about using the idea or the concept of a piece square table.

We are talking about the exact same values as another program being used in all the piece square tables.

Is it that hard for you to understand?

You sound like a stuck record.

How different do you think the values will be for a queen to sit in the center of the board from one program to another.

[Dann Corbit]

I think I can understand the tables above. If these are "secrets" of a chess program and I don't use them or learn from them, others will. Like Bob Hyatt, Vasik ,Friz Morten, Chrilly Donninger,Mayer Kahler.

Rasjid

Learn all you want. I think that's why they are out there. Copy them verbatum? That is a somewhat different concept.

Well put it this way.....by your own logic you better steal everything thats not nailed down around you before someone else does.

Are you saying that those authors are thieves?

Yes or no will suffice as an answer......



Christopher

Almost every program has a piece square table.
Do you think that every constant in a piece square table was independently researched and calculated from first principles?.

Don't change the subject to get him off the hook. You know that there is a difference between the creation of ones own values and the copying of someone elses.

I know what I read in the previous post.

Every single program uses either an alpha beta search or MTD(f) or a variant of those (in fact, they are proven to belong to the same class by a research paper). Anyway, only one person invented alpha/beta and only one person invented MTD(f) but everyone uses them.

So? What's your point?

I will state that there is no shame whatsoever in using someone else's idea, unless you claim that it was your invention or unless you have violated some agreement in doing so.

No one said there was any shame in how Sloppy came to be.

The author of Sloppy has done absolutely nothing wrong. Not morally, not academically, not scientifically. The way he did things is the way that you are *supposed* to do them.

Sloppy is somewhat different in how it came to be than say Toga for example. He did everything in full sight. He copied the piece square table values exactly and said so. He even released them with your beloved GPL. That point is important as Sloppy contains large amounts of Toga.

Because of this point he asked in the Winboard Forum if it was acceptable for it to be put in tournaments. One of the people who runs such a tournament said no to that from his point of view. The reason? It contains Fruit's evaluation terms and Fruit is already in that tournament. The door was however left open to him if he changed the eval to something original. Go and read it all yourself.

As to serious tounaments he says he is not interested. That is just as well because the eval is currently Toga's. One day he might change it and then it will be different. He has said he would, so we will need to wait and see if he does.

We are talking about exactly the same values, weight for weight.

Quite frankly, the clone hunters are a far bigger problem than the cloners are.

I think people who but in threads when a resolution to something has already been found and has long since past are the worst problem.

People should know better who do that and should read the full thread before they attempt to pontificate to others.

Now...if you'll excuse me, my question to Mr Rasjid still remains.....

Are you saying that those authors are thieves?

Yes or no will suffice as an answer......

Still waiting for the answer.....

Christopher

I can take a GPL program, and change one line and make a new fork.
That includes a 50,000,000 line program.
And there is nothing wrong with it. That's the whole idea of GPL.

As to wheter other people want to allow it in their tournaments, that is up to them.

As to whether it is like Fruit and/or Toga -- again be your own judge.

In this case, the eval is the same and the search is different.

I see lots of new and original ideas in the program. Probably more so than in other programs that I have examined.

You seem to think that something is wrong with cloning. There is nothing wrong with it, if it is explicitly allowed by the license. That is what GPL is for. Toga is also GPL. Someone could take code from 14 GPL projects and cut and paste to their heart's content to make a 15th GPL project. And there would be nothing wrong with it whatsoever. They would be following the exact wishes of the original authors. These authors actually WANT people to clone their code. That is the entire REASON for GPL code being public.

Now, as to whether the combined things make up a new entity, that is for others to decide.

I think that you are going hysterical about something where absolutely everything has been done right. It's like a mother screaming at her son:
"How dare you make your bed like I asked you to! I could bounce a quarter on it! You just wait until your father gets home, there's going to be hell to pay."

Here is an instance where someone has done everything right, exactly according to the wishes of the original authors and you seem to be in a mood to condemn it.

I find that really strange.

[revengeska]

Sloppy is not Toga and Toga is not Fruit.

And George W. Bush went to war in Iraq not for oil but for freedom sake.

Now we know.......

Toga is not Fruit

Very funny....very very very funny......

This isn't CTF, so I won't get started on politics.

Yes...better not. Don't want you to fall through the ice.....

You must be way behind in the computer chess world. Because if you weren't, you'd realize there's noticeable differences in how Toga and Fruit play, as well as a difference in strength. That doesn't happen unless there's considerable differences in code.

How much code needs to be the same for you and which parts?

I think you better take a look at both sources before make such sweeping generalisations.

I realize you're mad because you can't write closed source programs that are strong enough for anyone to notice, After all, if all programs had to be closed source, the general strength of chess engines would be much lower and it would be easier for you to make some money with weaker engines.

How so? Because we would nopt get these....?

Azaad (?/Rybka), Bionic (Hans Secelle, Albrecht Heeffer/Crafty), Capachess (Wilfredo J Malave Davila/TSCP), Christine_T (Orlando Mouchel/Fruit), Confess (?/?), Deep<9> (Denis Grafen/Chess Tiger, Pepito), Dick Skinner (?/?), ElChinito (Eugenio Castillo Jimenez, Pascal Tang/Crafty), Enano (Oscar Anibal Corona G/TSCP), Goofy (?/Greko), Gnd0 (Syed Kamall Basar/Rybka, Naum), HardwareHarveyX55 (?/Hiarcs), Hydra (?/Fruit), Kerostave (?/Fruit, Toga), LaPetite / LaGrande / Voyager (Dr. Gabrielle Müller/Crfaty), LordKing (Carlo Pivotto/Fruit), LuiZa (Marco Artale/Faile), Moga (?/Toga), Monster, Nr5 (Horst Stör/Fruit), Ocha (?/Rybka), OldBlindDog (Bill Oatman/Arasan), Peter (Peter Plunkett/Rybka), Quaestor V (José Franco Zenon/GreKo), Rashess (Mehdi Niakouei/Pharaon), Rocket (?/Rybka), Rocky, Rucsil (?/Rybka), Sally6 (?/Nejmet), Siboney (Francisco Rivera/Pepito, Cerebro), Squash (Josh Haglund/TSCP), Tec_Kika (?/?), Tommy (?/?), Tuxedo (Ananth Shrinivas S/TSCP), Ultima (Chinmay Kulkarni/?), Wincraft (Winfred Craft/?)

I suppose that's why you call the GPL the General Plagarists License. But as you have the right to proprietary software, we have the right to free software. So deal with it.

I believe we live in a dishonest world where temptation rules rational thought. It's a bit like needing oil really. How are the gas prices in the US btw?

Never mind....you could spend your money in a different way. I won't get acid rain either......

http://www.thelinuxshop.co.uk/catalog/index.php

These thing are NOT free as in "free beer". These things are free as in free to sell.



You too could look like a square.......only $20 to the free GPL community.

http://www.gnu.org/gear/gplv3-tshirt.html

Why bother with scissors.....grow that hair..."man".

http://www.gnu.org/gear/gplv3-hoodie.html

I wish Richard Stallman would visit these boards, he'd have a fit.

Good. Let's hope it's terminal.

Christopher

Do you REALLY want me to get started in politics? I was under the impression that it was either against the rules or frowned upon here.

It doesn't matter how much code is different if it's used according to the terms of the free software license and given due credit. I don't see anyone complaining about there being forks in SCID and renamed something else. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize Fruit and Toga play much differently.

Now take that list and eliminate all the illegal chess engines from it, and then we'll talk. Don't bring illegal clones of proprietary software into this, that's not what we're talking about.

How is using GPL'd source code legally dishonest? It's about raising the quality of software, rather than seeing how many different ways people can write bad code. Of course people are going to be tempted to use quality code that works, that's the whole point.

I'll go into politics if I can get clarification on the rules here.

And just to make things clear, free software does NOT mean software has to be available free of charge. It means it HAS to be distributed with the source code, and people are free to change and redistribute it at their leisure.

[Ryan Benitez]

I think I can understand the tables above. If these are "secrets" of a chess program and I don't use them or learn from them, others will. Like Bob Hyatt, Vasik ,Friz Morten, Chrilly Donninger,Mayer Kahler.

Rasjid

Learn all you want. I think that's why they are out there. Copy them verbatum? That is a somewhat different concept.

Well put it this way.....by your own logic you better steal everything thats not nailed down around you before someone else does.

Are you saying that those authors are thieves?

Yes or no will suffice as an answer......



Christopher

Almost every program has a piece square table.
Do you think that every constant in a piece square table was independently researched and calculated from first principles?.

Don't change the subject to get him off the hook. You know that there is a difference between the creation of ones own values and the copying of someone elses.

I know what I read in the previous post.

Every single program uses either an alpha beta search or MTD(f) or a variant of those (in fact, they are proven to belong to the same class by a research paper). Anyway, only one person invented alpha/beta and only one person invented MTD(f) but everyone uses them.

So? What's your point?

I will state that there is no shame whatsoever in using someone else's idea, unless you claim that it was your invention or unless you have violated some agreement in doing so.

No one said there was any shame in how Sloppy came to be.

The author of Sloppy has done absolutely nothing wrong. Not morally, not academically, not scientifically. The way he did things is the way that you are *supposed* to do them.

Sloppy is somewhat different in how it came to be than say Toga for example. He did everything in full sight. He copied the piece square table values exactly and said so. He even released them with your beloved GPL. That point is important as Sloppy contains large amounts of Toga.

Because of this point he asked in the Winboard Forum if it was acceptable for it to be put in tournaments. One of the people who runs such a tournament said no to that from his point of view. The reason? It contains Fruit's evaluation terms and Fruit is already in that tournament. The door was however left open to him if he changed the eval to something original. Go and read it all yourself.

As to serious tounaments he says he is not interested. That is just as well because the eval is currently Toga's. One day he might change it and then it will be different. He has said he would, so we will need to wait and see if he does.

We are talking about exactly the same values, weight for weight.

Quite frankly, the clone hunters are a far bigger problem than the cloners are.

I think people who but in threads when a resolution to something has already been found and has long since past are the worst problem.

People should know better who do that and should read the full thread before they attempt to pontificate to others.

Now...if you'll excuse me, my question to Mr Rasjid still remains.....

Are you saying that those authors are thieves?

Yes or no will suffice as an answer......

Still waiting for the answer.....

Christopher

I can take a GPL program, and change one line and make a new fork.
That includes a 50,000,000 line program.
And there is nothing wrong with it. That's the whole idea of GPL.

As to wheter other people want to allow it in their tournaments, that is up to them.

As to whether it is like Fruit and/or Toga -- again be your own judge.

In this case, the eval is the same and the search is different.

I see lots of new and original ideas in the program. Probably more so than in other programs that I have examined.

You seem to think that something is wrong with cloning. There is nothing wrong with it, if it is explicitly allowed by the license. That is what GPL is for. Toga is also GPL. Someone could take code from 14 GPL projects and cut and paste to their heart's content to make a 15th GPL project. And there would be nothing wrong with it whatsoever. They would be following the exact wishes of the original authors. These authors actually WANT people to clone their code. That is the entire REASON for GPL code being public.

Now, as to whether the combined things make up a new entity, that is for others to decide.

I think that you are going hysterical about something where absolutely everything has been done right. It's like a mother screaming at her son:
"How dare you make your bed like I asked you to! I could bounce a quarter on it! You just wait until your father gets home, there's going to be hell to pay."

Here is an instance where someone has done everything right, exactly according to the wishes of the original authors and you seem to be in a mood to condemn it.

I find that really strange.

The state of computer chess has driven Chris to the stance he has today. It is easy to blame the GPL when it is really the people breaking it that are the problem. Notice the new Toga SE being found on Russian web sites that provides no source code. This type of stuff is the real problem.

[Eizenhammer]

In our view the two things that define a chess program are its eval and its search.

Who do you mean by "our"? .

Mr. Conkie always uses the pluralis maiestatis. It is the only interesting aspect of all his postings. One gets used to it, until one finally stops reading them ...

Peter

[Ryan Benitez]

Do you REALLY want me to get started in politics? I was under the impression that it was either against the rules or frowned upon here.

It doesn't matter how much code is different if it's used according to the terms of the free software license and given due credit. I don't see anyone complaining about there being forks in SCID and renamed something else. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize Fruit and Toga play much differently.

Now take that list and eliminate all the illegal chess engines from it, and then we'll talk. Don't bring illegal clones of proprietary software into this, that's not what we're talking about.

How is using GPL'd source code legally dishonest? It's about raising the quality of software, rather than seeing how many different ways people can write bad code. Of course people are going to be tempted to use quality code that works, that's the whole point.

I'll go into politics if I can get clarification on the rules here.

And just to make things clear, free software does NOT mean software has to be available free of charge. It means it HAS to be distributed with the source code, and people are free to change and redistribute it at their leisure.

Just as a side note, naturally Fruit and Toga would not play the same at this point but I did go out of my way to make sure the style would be much different. Toga plays much closer in style to Fruit 2.2 today than Fruit 2.3.3 (or even 2.3.1) does for example.

[gerold]

Goyaz has a nice logo. Music before the opening move.
Its an engine most can beat.

[Graham Banks]

Have you tested Goyaz yet? The author sent me a nice message.

Goyaz is very nice as is every new engine.

In case you hadn't noticed, we test a very wide range of amateur engines, but obviously there are too many to test all.
Once I estimate that an engine has reached the 2000+ ELO mark, I'll include it in my amateur tournaments.
So unfortunately Goyaz will have to wait for now.

Regards, Graham.

[Daniel Mehrmann]

How different do you think the values will be for a queen to sit in the center of the board from one program to another.

Well, i think the point is that a programmer should make his own thoughts instead of copy +200 ELO evaluation terms.

It doesn't matter if it near the fruit tables. This can happend of course. But between "copy" and "own thoughts" are worlds.

Just look on older engines like Quark. I don't wanna know how much hours, days, months or years Thomas spend on his evaluation terms.

Today, the new generation, just copy the terms of other engines.
I agree with Ryan that Sloppy is the wrong focus in this case, but basicly this engine stands for a example of this "new generation" of engines and i don't like this way at all.

Best,
Daniel

ps: I could go "deeper" explaining what i mean with "own thoughts" if you whish.
It's not only calculating values, it's the understanding of values, the weight between all components in a full evaluation. "Understanding" means you are able to create your own perfect evaluation, you understand your squares, pieces and the terms. You know what you wanna reach....