morality and legality of dowloading robbolito

[Bill Rogers]

This entire thread is just full of nonsense. I have followed the making and release of Rybka from its very begining. No where did Vas ever mention seeing Crafty, this is a new idea that someone threw into the soup.
Right after Vas released Rybak he did in passing mention that he had seen the coding of Fruit. He did no indicate in any way that he copied an of the ideas presented in Fruit. The "so called" experts here have come up with that idea on their own and most likely because Ryybka is so strong and they can not believe that Vas was capable of creating such a strong program on his own. It really hurts me to see so many people that I have learned to respect over the years getting in on this hated band wagon against Vas simply because of these false implications. No one, and I repeat "NO ONE" has ever come up with even one iota of proof that Rybka contains even one tiny part of Fruit or for that matter or any part of any other chess program. You can all fall back on your presumed intelligence and proclaim that Rybka is a clone but with out any kind of proof you are just singing to the stars and than only to here yourselves sing.
I think that you are all extremely lucky that Vas is such a mature individual who lets all of this slanderous crap just float by because if there were some kind of internatinal laws and he were not such a man you could all be held libal and made to pay some tremendous sums of money for posting such lies ( I say lies because not even one piece of evidence to back up your statements has ever been shown).
Let me put it this way. This is an American Chess site and as such then American laws hold forth. That means incase non of you can comprehend the legal implications of the law, even though it may have never been done before Vas could start law proceedings against of of you for slander.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

This entire thread is just full of nonsense. I have followed the making and release of Rybka from its very begining. No where did Vas ever mention seeing Crafty, this is a new idea that someone threw into the soup.
Right after Vas released Rybak he did in passing mention that he had seen the coding of Fruit. He did no indicate in any way that he copied an of the ideas presented in Fruit. The "so called" experts here have come up with that idea on their own and most likely because Ryybka is so strong and they can not believe that Vas was capable of creating such a strong program on his own. It really hurts me to see so many people that I have learned to respect over the years getting in on this hated band wagon against Vas simply because of these false implications. No one, and I repeat "NO ONE" has ever come up with even one iota of proof that Rybka contains even one tiny part of Fruit or for that matter or any part of any other chess program. You can all fall back on your presumed intelligence and proclaim that Rybka is a clone but with out any kind of proof you are just singing to the stars and than only to here yourselves sing.
I think that you are all extremely lucky that Vas is such a mature individual who lets all of this slanderous crap just float by because if there were some kind of internatinal laws and he were not such a man you could all be held libal and made to pay some tremendous sums of money for posting such lies ( I say lies because not even one piece of evidence to back up your statements has ever been shown).
Let me put it this way. This is an American Chess site and as such then American laws hold forth. That means incase non of you can comprehend the legal implications of the law, even though it may have never been done before Vas could start law proceedings against of of you for slander.

I've never participated in the debats related to the origin of Rybka because simply I have no idea of programming skills and because I simply don't care....
What I do care about is that Rybka 3+ was never released and will never be released and as some of my former friends indicated,this is the reason why I am posting for the 2001 time that I am no more a Rybka fan....
I feel some kind of dectatorship around here and I don't like that hence my reactions and opinions expressed here....
Never the less,according to the hardcore Rybka fanboys,I am in bad relationship with Vasik,I am hating Vasik,I disappointed from something related to an opening book issue,etc....this is all nonsense....
Dr.D

[Rolf]

The Crafty thing was mentioned by Vas himself in one of his prewords. The Fruit paranoia was started by Donninger who then however stated "negative" but he had used the tabooed method and talked about it in public.

As a little aside and as hommage to the also existing men of America the land of the free, one example is Vas for sure in all his dignity and peace, another guy was just praised by German mag SPIEGEL.

It's Steve House who hadnt even a German Wiki entry up to now.
He's allegedly the best climber in Alpine style of the World.

alpine means you climb without pre-arranged material and routes.

We would call him untypical American because he doesnt sell himself like maniac, like e.g. M. Jackson.

It's beyond me why we in this also academic forum worship the buttonpushers and the beancounters and now also the cloners, but not Vas, such a decent Wch and a typical example for American idols who live forever in the words of the American Constitution.

[Nimzovik]

As I posted in a similar thread--"Honesty...Yes.... Peculiar use of this term in this rather particular situation. Query --could it not be called 'detrimental reliance' in regard to the slighted Rybka 3 fans that purchased the engine with 'Updates' which were not delivered If I were advised (by the Rybka representatives) that an improved R3+ was in the offing and I then purchased said R3 with this expectation for purposes of utilizing the R3+ to proof my opening book....and said updates were NOT delivered in a 'reasonable' time period. Well? What ethical situation do we have then in terms of a R3+ clone. IF Vas were to release the much touted R3+ would I be comitting murder if I then subsequently --ahem--killed my clone.... " However one could slip in the word 'Legal' or 'Moral' and the statement applies just as well.

[Uri Blass]

The conclusion from this poll (so far) is that 57% of the people posting here have no problem making themselves believe the following:

An engine that

a) Comes from author(s) that refuse to identify themselves, despite being the strongest in the world
b) Is given away freely despite (a)
c) Is obviously reverse engineered (even if you believe the bs about the "b" language)
d) Has been identified as an illegal clone by the Wch who *did* identify himself thus opening himself up for a libel suit if he's lying.

...is legal!

Note that the question if downloading the engine is legal is a different question than the question if developing the engine is legal.

The poll was only about users who download the engine and not about developers.

Part of the people who admit using the engine post under their real name.
If they do something illegal then the only proof that they do something illegal is if the court find them quilty.

So far I did not see one case when the court found one poster who admit testing robollito or ippolit quilty.

If the court find someone of them quilty then it is going to be a proof that it is illegal to download the engine.
If it does not happen then the claim that it is illegal is not proved.

Uri

[michiguel]

Your logic is flawed, however. Vas _claimed_ this program is a copy of Rybka 3. He opened the door.

Yes I realize that he has said so... so I don't see how my logic is flawed just because he said such a thing. I have to take his word on that, and until it is demonstrated to me he is a habitual liar and/or can't be trusted, I will take him at his word. That is good enough for me for the work I have to do.

He got caught, why is irrelevant. Most know that if you drive a white honda at 85 mph in a 70 mph speed zone you have less chance of getting caught than if you drive 80mph in a red ferrari or porsche.

well another "speeder's fallacy." Maybe this is true in some parts of the country but not where I ran radar.

This reminds me of the other one where people think they are getting pulled over because they "are out-of-state." What a joke... as if I could see the plate as they go by at over a mile a minute. I was lucky enough to remember "Red... late model... Van" as I headed off in pursuit.

The secret is in the bumperstickers, not the plates
You are going to enjoys this commercial!!


Miguel

From a half mile plus out... it's hard enough just to make out type while a half dozen other things are going thru your head ("am I safe here, does that vehicle appear to be well over the limit before I 'gun' him, will I be able to get out safely in traffic to pursue, etc.)... not even to speak about how hard it was to pick out the vehicle type among the gazillion cars going by. And this was during the Day!

My "personal minimums" were 15mph and over on the interstate. So in my book that Red Ferrari would get a pass (unless I was EXTREMELY bored) because writing a ticket for 10mph over was borderline lame. 15mph and over looks so much better in traffic court.

[Terry McCracken]

This entire thread is just full of nonsense. I have followed the making and release of Rybka from its very begining. No where did Vas ever mention seeing Crafty, this is a new idea that someone threw into the soup.
Right after Vas released Rybak he did in passing mention that he had seen the coding of Fruit. He did no indicate in any way that he copied an of the ideas presented in Fruit. The "so called" experts here have come up with that idea on their own and most likely because Ryybka is so strong and they can not believe that Vas was capable of creating such a strong program on his own. It really hurts me to see so many people that I have learned to respect over the years getting in on this hated band wagon against Vas simply because of these false implications. No one, and I repeat "NO ONE" has ever come up with even one iota of proof that Rybka contains even one tiny part of Fruit or for that matter or any part of any other chess program. You can all fall back on your presumed intelligence and proclaim that Rybka is a clone but with out any kind of proof you are just singing to the stars and than only to here yourselves sing.
I think that you are all extremely lucky that Vas is such a mature individual who lets all of this slanderous crap just float by because if there were some kind of internatinal laws and he were not such a man you could all be held libal and made to pay some tremendous sums of money for posting such lies ( I say lies because not even one piece of evidence to back up your statements has ever been shown).
Let me put it this way. This is an American Chess site and as such then American laws hold forth. That means incase non of you can comprehend the legal implications of the law, even though it may have never been done before Vas could start law proceedings against of of you for slander.

Yes, there is a lot of BS in this thread and you just added to it.

Several programmers demonstrated tha R1 was filled with Fruit code so please get your facts straight and also not go on to make tangential arguments that are ill-informed when this thread is about something else, Robbolito which is the program in question!

[Graham Banks]

Several programmers demonstrated tha R1 was filled with Fruit code so please get your facts straight

These programmers have obviously not conferred at length with Ryan Benitez regarding this. I'll say no more on it.

[Spacious_Mind]

The conclusion from this poll (so far) is that 57% of the people posting here have no problem making themselves believe the following:

An engine that

a) Comes from author(s) that refuse to identify themselves, despite being the strongest in the world
b) Is given away freely despite (a)
c) Is obviously reverse engineered (even if you believe the bs about the "b" language)
d) Has been identified as an illegal clone by the Wch who *did* identify himself thus opening himself up for a libel suit if he's lying.

...is legal!

Hi Gian-Carlo,

What is your opinion based on your above statement? Is it a clone have you closely tested it and does it show indications that it is a copy of Rybka? I am really interested in hearing an informed opinion from an informed chess programmer based on informed tests.

I am currently playing the engine in quite a large tournament which I intend to write about someday and I am certainly interested in some facts that would cause me to not include the engine.

But, please I am only interested in proven chess examples and not statements or opinions.

Thanks a lot.

Nick

[Terry McCracken]

Several programmers demonstrated tha R1 was filled with Fruit code so please get your facts straight

These programmers have obviously not conferred at length with Ryan Benitez regarding this. I'll say no more on it.

What's your point Graham? Is he The Oracle?

I guess a computer scientist of 40+ years is either incompetent or a liar?

You tell me and the rest of CCC.

Again, way off topic.