Similarity Detector Available

[Don]

It looks like it's crashing when sending the stop command. that is a UCI command to stop an active search. I assume winboard supports an equivalent command, right?

Anyone get SD to work with wb2uci? My first try:

C:\chess\similar>similar -t wb2uci
program: amateur295x4 (time: 100 ms)

0.0 percent .error writing "file2537fb0": broken pipe
while executing
"puts $fh "stop""
("for" body line 15)
invoked from within
"for { set n $start } { $n < $e } { incr n } {

if { ($n % 50) == 0 } {
puts ""
set perc [expr ($cc * 100.0) / 2000.0]
puts -nonewline [format "..."
(file "C:/chess/similar/similar.exe/lib/app-clone/clone.tcl" line 141)
invoked from within
"source C:/chess/similar/similar.exe/lib/app-clone/clone.tcl"
("package ifneeded app-clone 1.0" script)
invoked from within
"package require app-clone"
(file "C:/chess/similar/similar.exe/main.tcl" line 4)

C:\chess\similar>

[Ant_Gugdin]

Obviously, my reply is that Robbolito is based on Ippolit, which is a derivative/clone of (closed-source) Rybka 3.

The reason I (and, I suspect, a number of others) didn't care about this is that Rybka itself appeared to be a derivative of an open-source program, namely Fruit. In other words, Houdini might have been based on a closed source program but it was based on a closed source program which, morally speaking, should have been open source.

However, if Vas' use of Fruit was not as extensive as people seem to believe (which is what your program appears to show) then Houdini starts to look like an illegitimate engine. I use the word "illegitimate" rather than "illegal" as I don't even know who Vas should sue or in which jurisdiction, let alone what the law is.

[Ant_Gugdin]

By the way, I'm amazed that nobody has run a comparison between Rybka 3 and Ippolit. Didn't that debate rage for ages and ages? I don't have a copy of Rybka 3 but, if anyone does, an early version of Ippolit can be found here: http://www.open-chess.org/download/file.php?id=41.

[michiguel]

By the way, I'm amazed that nobody has run a comparison between Rybka 3 and Ippolit. Didn't that debate rage for ages and ages? I don't have a copy of Rybka 3 but, if anyone does, an early version of Ippolit can be found here: http://www.open-chess.org/download/file.php?id=41.

Done more than 10 months ago.

http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... rap#325251

Miguel

[Uri Blass]

Obviously, my reply is that Robbolito is based on Ippolit, which is a derivative/clone of (closed-source) Rybka 3.

The reason I (and, I suspect, a number of others) didn't care about this is that Rybka itself appeared to be a derivative of an open-source program, namely Fruit. In other words, Houdini might have been based on a closed source program but it was based on a closed source program which, morally speaking, should have been open source.

However, if Vas' use of Fruit was not as extensive as people seem to believe (which is what your program appears to show) then Houdini starts to look like an illegitimate engine. I use the word "illegitimate" rather than "illegal" as I don't even know who Vas should sue or in which jurisdiction, let alone what the law is.

I do not know what people believe but I never believed that Vas used much of fruit2.1

It is a fact that fruit2.1 has some endgame knowledge that rybka beta does not have that may be part of the reason for difference in move choice between rybka 1 beta and fruit(for example knowledge about the blind bishop or knowledge about KRP vs KR).

The people who claimed that rybka is based on fruit never did it based on analysis of games but based on analysis of code (strleka1.8 is based on rybka1 beta so they started by comparing strelka1.8 with fruit2.1) and I believe that their analysis shows at most a small similiarity and it was never something like the similiarity fruit-toga when more than 90% of the code is the same.

Most of the code of strelka1.8 is clearly not from fruit and using sone ideas from fruit together with ideas that are not in fruit is not something that can cause big similiarity between playing style of rybka and fruit.

[benstoker]

Your prog compares only best moves. Could you compare PVs to say 4 ply? E.G.: Eng1= A B C D; Eng2 = A B C Z. The first 3 moves are same, and so this would be say 75% similar. Eng3 = A B T Y; This would be 50% similar, or some other metric.

Seems like evidence of similarity is stronger where the first 3 moves of 2 different engines' PVs are the same as opposed to where only the best move is the same and moves 2, 3, 4 + are different.

I created a utility called similar which measures how different one chess program is from others. It does this by running 2000 position from random games and noting how often the moves agree and as output returns the percentage of moves that match.

You can get it here: http://komodochess.com/pub/similar.zip

Here is some sample output, comparing Robbolito with a few other programs:

------ RobboLito version 0.084 (time: 100 ms) ------
69.25 Houdini 1.5 w32 (time: 100 ms)
66.90 Rybka 3 (time: 100 ms)
61.70 Stockfish 1.9.1 JA 64bit (time: 100 ms)
61.35 Stockfish 1.8 JA (time: 100 ms)
59.80 Komodo64 1.2 JA (time: 100 ms)
59.15 Komodo 1.0 (time: 100 ms)
58.95 Stockfish 1.7.1 64bit (time: 100 ms)
58.95 Stockfish 1.6 64bit (time: 100 ms)
57.00 Fruit 2.3.1 (time: 100 ms)
56.20 Fruit 2.1 (time: 100 ms)


I have not tested this on windows so I'm hoping to get some feedback specific to windows.

The similar.exe is designed to run on 64 bit windows and is actually a tcl script wrapped up with a tcl runtime using tclkit technology. I am also including the "starkit" which is platform independent, but requires a tclkit runtime for your platform. It is similar to a jar file and can be taken apart and inspected and modified if you wish - assuming you know how to work with starkit's and such. google for starkit and sdx.kit for more information.

Please let me know if you find this interesting or useful. Email me at drd@mit.edu

Don

[Don]

Obviously, my reply is that Robbolito is based on Ippolit, which is a derivative/clone of (closed-source) Rybka 3.

The reason I (and, I suspect, a number of others) didn't care about this is that Rybka itself appeared to be a derivative of an open-source program, namely Fruit. In other words, Houdini might have been based on a closed source program but it was based on a closed source program which, morally speaking, should have been open source.

However, if Vas' use of Fruit was not as extensive as people seem to believe (which is what your program appears to show) then Houdini starts to look like an illegitimate engine. I use the word "illegitimate" rather than "illegal" as I don't even know who Vas should sue or in which jurisdiction, let alone what the law is.

I do not know what people believe but I never believed that Vas used much of fruit2.1

It is a fact that fruit2.1 has some endgame knowledge that rybka beta does not have that may be part of the reason for difference in move choice between rybka 1 beta and fruit(for example knowledge about the blind bishop or knowledge about KRP vs KR).

The people who claimed that rybka is based on fruit never did it based on analysis of games but based on analysis of code (strleka1.8 is based on rybka1 beta so they started by comparing strelka1.8 with fruit2.1) and I believe that their analysis shows at most a small similiarity and it was never something like the similiarity fruit-toga when more than 90% of the code is the same.

Most of the code of strelka1.8 is clearly not from fruit and using sone ideas from fruit together with ideas that are not in fruit is not something that can cause big similiarity between playing style of rybka and fruit.

I'm pretty sure what the similarity tester actually measures is the evaluation function of the program. I can change the depth or turn off null move and it doesn't change that much, and either constitutes a massive change in the search.

[Ant_Gugdin]

If you are right, Vas is being very hard done by here. It would hardly be fair to see a program which is based on Rybka kill Rybka's sales because it has surpassed its playing strength.

Robert deserves credit for finding extra ELO where the Rybka team could not. However, if Vas is genuinely innocent of the Fruit claims then Houdini's strength is substantially based on Vas' hard work. As a way out of this, I would suggest that Robert withdraw Houdini and offer to share his ideas with the Rybka team, for payment.

[Robert Flesher]

Don, I was stating nothing more than I found some points for BB very interesting. As you can see that people on this forum are often fanatical about there beliefs. On the contrast BB seems to always remain objective and logical.

However, others may surmise your software "clone detector" is nothing more than a clever ploy to re-activate the zealots.

That is their problem, I don't really care what they think.

Thus starting the witch hunt of the bastard children once again. Already we saw a few ready to burn the fires. I won't mention any names.

It's funny how you invoke images of old superstitions to make it seem like you are on the moral high road and everyone else is backwards. It's cute but it's not appropriate.

Also, why do people keep calling this a clone detector? I have denounced that name and I only made the original post to draw people to this thread.

Although, I am always puzzled at your obvious campaign against Houndini and family. It stinks of envy, and jealously, and this cannot be the case. Correct?

I don't have bad feelings towards Houdart, he was relatively straightforward about the connection right from the start.

Neither before or after the cloning did I ever say a bad word against Rybka, a program much stronger than Komodo was back then. So you figure it out. If I'm being petty and jealous why not Rybka?

I presented a tool to help people try to analyze what is going on and I made no special claims. This obviously does not set very well with those who don't want to see actual data of any kind.

I think you have stated ( not verbatim) that you are not impressed that someone takes an already very strong source code and makes a super strong engine.

That's not how I feel - where did I say that? I said I WAS impressed if someone is able to take an already strong program and add a substantial amount of ELO to it. In fact I said this about Houdart, the person I am supposed to be envious of for improving Robbolito.

Fair enough! But, some evidence suggests this is what Vas did with Rybka 1.0, it then evolved into Rybka 2.0- 3.0- 4.0. So why not witch hunt Vas ?

What is your theory on this?

Roubert Houdart released something stronger than Rybka 4.0 with very few, if any bugs. If that was so easy, why has Vas not done it for us
paying customers ?

What is your point, that Robert is your hero?

I think you have stated ( not verbatim) that you are not impressed that someone takes an already very strong source code and makes a super strong engine.

That's not how I feel - where did I say that?


I am never afraid to admit when I am wrong, my wife has seen to that.

Don, I returned to the thread I was making reference to, and I see that you are correct. Your name was attached to the statement because you replied to it, subsequently, when I read it the first time I thought you had written it. My mistake, so I retract, and apologize.

[Don]

Don, I was stating nothing more than I found some points for BB very interesting. As you can see that people on this forum are often fanatical about there beliefs. On the contrast BB seems to always remain objective and logical.

However, others may surmise your software "clone detector" is nothing more than a clever ploy to re-activate the zealots.

That is their problem, I don't really care what they think.

Thus starting the witch hunt of the bastard children once again. Already we saw a few ready to burn the fires. I won't mention any names.

It's funny how you invoke images of old superstitions to make it seem like you are on the moral high road and everyone else is backwards. It's cute but it's not appropriate.

Also, why do people keep calling this a clone detector? I have denounced that name and I only made the original post to draw people to this thread.

Although, I am always puzzled at your obvious campaign against Houndini and family. It stinks of envy, and jealously, and this cannot be the case. Correct?

I don't have bad feelings towards Houdart, he was relatively straightforward about the connection right from the start.

Neither before or after the cloning did I ever say a bad word against Rybka, a program much stronger than Komodo was back then. So you figure it out. If I'm being petty and jealous why not Rybka?

I presented a tool to help people try to analyze what is going on and I made no special claims. This obviously does not set very well with those who don't want to see actual data of any kind.

I think you have stated ( not verbatim) that you are not impressed that someone takes an already very strong source code and makes a super strong engine.

That's not how I feel - where did I say that? I said I WAS impressed if someone is able to take an already strong program and add a substantial amount of ELO to it. In fact I said this about Houdart, the person I am supposed to be envious of for improving Robbolito.

Fair enough! But, some evidence suggests this is what Vas did with Rybka 1.0, it then evolved into Rybka 2.0- 3.0- 4.0. So why not witch hunt Vas ?

What is your theory on this?

Roubert Houdart released something stronger than Rybka 4.0 with very few, if any bugs. If that was so easy, why has Vas not done it for us
paying customers ?

What is your point, that Robert is your hero?

I think you have stated ( not verbatim) that you are not impressed that someone takes an already very strong source code and makes a super strong engine.

That's not how I feel - where did I say that?


I am never afraid to admit when I am wrong, my wife has seen to that.

Don, I returned to the thread I was making reference to, and I see that you are correct. Your name was attached to the statement because you replied to it, subsequently, when I read it the first time I thought you had written it. My mistake, so I retract, and apologize.

No sweat. That's a point that is easy to get confused about.