Mystery engine at CCC

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Eduard
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Re: Mystery engine at CCC

Post by Eduard »

These are business people. They do business in chess. That alone counts.
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reflectionofpower
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Re: Mystery engine at CCC

Post by reflectionofpower »

good point
"Without change, something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken." (Dune - 1984)

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Re: Mystery engine at CCC

Post by CornfedForever »

reflectionofpower wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:33 pm good point
And a good thing too - they seem to do it responsibly and really well.
And remember, Team Komodo/Dragon essentially became "business people" the moment they started charging for their product.
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Steve Maughan
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Re: Mystery engine at CCC

Post by Steve Maughan »

Modern Times wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 9:53 am I do find it really strange that they bought Komodo, a beautiful engine 2nd only to Stockfish, then a few months later essentially kill it off and fund a brand new engine from scratch. It makes no sense to me.
I'm bewildered by this take. They didn't "kill it off" Komodo / Dragon, they saved it. As I understand it, Mark and Larry wanted to retire and chess.com gave them an exit path. They're being kept on for some time and I'm sure there is a knowledge transfer as part of the deal. The ideas embedded in Komodo / Dragon will live on. If they weren't "business people" there would be no funds to help Larry, Mark, and don't forget Don Daily's widow.

— Steve
http://www.chessprogramming.net - Juggernaut & Maverick Chess Engine
Modern Times
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Re: Mystery engine at CCC

Post by Modern Times »

Steve Maughan wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 3:44 pm I'm bewildered by this take. They didn't "kill it off" Komodo / Dragon, they saved it.
— Steve
No I think chess.com killed it. Larry says there may be one final release and that is it. I take your point that Larry and Mark's consultancy will have passed on ideas to Torch, but in terms of actual code, it sounds like they contributed nothing or only a very tiny bit. Torch was created from the ground up according to Andrew. But they've still killed off Komodo at the end of the day.

Of course the money to Don Dailey's widow from the Komodo sale is most welcome.

And Torch is very welcome as a new engine.
chrisw
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Re: Mystery engine at CCC

Post by chrisw »

Chess.Com want to control the competitive space around SF, eg that chess.Com owns the ONLY competitor. The business model is to acquire all/most of the talent in the field to generate the competing engine and to own and control any other old competing engines which are then laid to rest. Larry and Mark’s consultant status without giving themselves anything to actively do means simply that they are being bought off for three years to keep them out of the way.
From various comments by the bought-up programmers you can probably assume they’re allowed to fiddle with their engines but not bring them to any form of competitive status, or if they do, they have to hand over the technology.
Chess.Com is in every way a monopolist and their goal is to crush Stockfish and replace it with their own go to engine. Meanwhile quite a few once independent engine programmers have sold themselves to the devil and on the devil’s terms.
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Re: Mystery engine at CCC

Post by kranium »

chrisw wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:12 pm Chess.Com want to control the competitive space around SF, eg that chess.Com owns the ONLY competitor. The business model is to acquire all/most of the talent in the field to generate the competing engine and to own and control any other old competing engines which are then laid to rest. Larry and Mark’s consultant status without giving themselves anything to actively do means simply that they are being bought off for three years to keep them out of the way.
From various comments by the bought-up programmers you can probably assume they’re allowed to fiddle with their engines but not bring them to any form of competitive status, or if they do, they have to hand over the technology.
Chess.Com is in every way a monopolist and their goal is to crush Stockfish and replace it with their own go to engine. Meanwhile quite a few once independent engine programmers have sold themselves to the devil and on the devil’s terms.
Exactly right.
If it quacks like chess, chess.com will throw money at it.
The challenge now is to recognize what's happening, and to resist falling prey to the unending stream of spin and marketing propaganda.
AndrewGrant
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Re: Mystery engine at CCC

Post by AndrewGrant »

I think you guys underestimate the depth of reasons why Chesscom wants their own engine in house. Chesscom's site has many features that rely on chess engines to produce good results. Its public knowledge that Komodo powers many of those tools -- it has to, since there are no super strong engines that are both free and licensed in such a way that Chesscom can avoid open-sourcing their tools.

So yes Chesscom wants to beat Stockfish... but they also want to have a chess engine internally for their own use. And it makes sense from a practical point of view to start from scratch, only use best practices, and develop with an intent for that. Refactor vs Rewrite is one of the topics of conversation for businesses.

The way I see it, Chesscom is allowing me, Andrew Grant, to continue playing in the chess world, developing tools for the community, and being apart of the conversation. Would I really be better off working at Boeing, and spending < 2 hrs a day working on engines? Would any of you be better off? I think its awesome that Chesscom is doing what they are doing.

As for the comments about buying up the competition... Chesscom is not stopping me from working on Ethereal. In fact I still sell Ethereal lol. But Ethereal is not a serious contender with Stockfish -- nor is Berserk or Koivisto. In the NNUE era, it takes too much compute to be at that level. Because of this, it won't be long until you see engines replace Ethereal/Berserk/Koivisto, because those three engines use their own data. Its much easier, faster, stronger, ( but more boring ), to use Lc0 or Stockfish data.

I maintain that if I scooped up the Lc0 data, mixed in some Ethereal, and generated a network using the Stockfish architecture or something close to it, I could add 50 elo to Ethereal overnight. But I'll never do that. Super lame.
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Steve Maughan
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Re: Mystery engine at CCC

Post by Steve Maughan »

chrisw wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:12 pm<snip>...Chess.Com is in every way a monopolist and their goal is to crush Stockfish and replace it with their own go to engine....</snip>
I'm more optimistic.

I don't think it's possible to crush Stockfish (over the board or in business), and there's also LiChess that gives them a run for their money at their core business. Chess.com has poured thousands into promoting chess and we have high quality commentary and regular tournaments (e.g., the **weekly** Title Tuesday). They're no small part of the boom currently enjoyed by the game, and for which I'm grateful.

Also, chess isn't a necessity in life — people can choose to spend their discretionary cash on other entertainment. This means chess.com can never really abuse a dominant position.

— Steve
http://www.chessprogramming.net - Juggernaut & Maverick Chess Engine
Eduard
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Re: Mystery engine at CCC

Post by Eduard »

reflectionofpower wrote: Wed Jul 19, 2023 12:33 pm good point
Dragon is only 30 Elo behind Stockfish. That is not much. I remember times on the game servers where Dragon lost regularly. That's not the case anymore. I know some friends who play regularly on PlayChess with Dragon 3.2 and hardly ever lose a game. I sometimes watch such games live because some of my friends are playing with my opening books. Dragon was on a very good path. The only explanation for what is happening now is purely commercial.