Questions on SMP search

[Houdini]

I'm not going to debate this ad nauseum. You come out of the blue, with a new program, top of the rating chart, a supposedly original work. Pure bilgewater.

If you want to earn someone's respect, you have to _earn_ it. Not _copy_ it.

I don't think there's a person left on the planet that believes Houdini is anything other than a modified Robolito. For good reason. From comparing output. To other methods of comparison. So live in your fantasy world. I'm not part of it...

I have been involved in computer chess since 1968, and been playing in ACM/ICCA/ICGA/etc tournaments since 1976. Not once has your name come up until "along comes Houdini." So spare me the "I have been involved for 25 years" nonsense. 25 years or 30 years doesn't matter. Neither is factual...

Now please go back to whatever it was you were doing for the past 25 years...

Wow!
First you've tried in vain to embarass me technically (which actually had the opposite effect), then you've produced false quotes, and now you've switched to the personal attack mode.

Where is the moderating team when you need it?

Robert

[Roger Brown]

Wow!
First you've tried in vain to embarass me technically (which actually had the opposite effect), then you've produced false quotes, and now you've switched to the personal attack mode.

Where is the moderating team when you need it?

Robert

Hello Robert,

Here.

Actually, I am disagreement with the directions this thread has gone.

It cannot be that here, in the Technical Sub-forum, that we are going to conduct arguments along the line of who are you, how long have you been involved in computer-chess and is Houdini an original program.

It is also not going to be tenable that wherever you post that you can be asked is Houdini original etc. Then every thread could potentially spiral out of control.

If there is evidence produce it and let it speak for itself.

I might say that Crafty is a clone of X but after Dr. Hyatt provides the evidence to show that the thing is 100% original then who looks the fool?

Similarly, if there is evidence showing that Houdini is a clone/derivative/pick word of choice, then produce it. Show the world and wait. Nothing Robert Houdart says one way or another will be important then.

I have noticed his reticence but unlike some it does not antagonise me because at some point the truth will out. Look at the current case with that other engine in the news. It will come out, one way or another.

Let us keep these non-technical inquisitions and side issues in the general forum and out of here - which was one of the powerful reasons for creating this forum if I recall correctly, as a place where programmers could sound off about the technical stuff away from the "noise"of the general forum.....

Thanks.

Later.

[bob]

I'm not going to debate this ad nauseum. You come out of the blue, with a new program, top of the rating chart, a supposedly original work. Pure bilgewater.

If you want to earn someone's respect, you have to _earn_ it. Not _copy_ it.

I don't think there's a person left on the planet that believes Houdini is anything other than a modified Robolito. For good reason. From comparing output. To other methods of comparison. So live in your fantasy world. I'm not part of it...

I have been involved in computer chess since 1968, and been playing in ACM/ICCA/ICGA/etc tournaments since 1976. Not once has your name come up until "along comes Houdini." So spare me the "I have been involved for 25 years" nonsense. 25 years or 30 years doesn't matter. Neither is factual...

Now please go back to whatever it was you were doing for the past 25 years...

Wow!
First you've tried in vain to embarass me technically (which actually had the opposite effect), then you've produced false quotes, and now you've switched to the personal attack mode.

Where is the moderating team when you need it?

Robert

Notice that I offered _facts_. Anyone can look up past chess events, starting in 1976, and find my name. All the way thru the last ACM event in 1994. And at some ICCA/ICGA events since. Not to mention CCT events, ACCA events. I referee papers for the ICGA journal. As a result, I have kept in fairly close touch with the computer chess scene for a _long_ time. I have met the majority of past computer chess greats, from Kozdrowicki, to Berliner, to Slate/Atkin, to Ken Thompson, Tom Truscott, Hsu. I have communicated with most of the rest. Ed Schroeder. Mark. Amir. Enough of the names. There are many I have missed, but one I have _never_ heard of... Guess who? There is most likely a reason. Computer chess programs don't get developed in a vacuum. Unless you talk about one like, say, Rybka. Wait. That's a copy job. The overnight wonders are _always_ subjected to a great deal of suspicion. For good reason. And these "overnight wonders" always expose themselves when they decide to cross over the wall and come out into the public, where they make statements that mark them for what they really are, imposters...

There are more than a few today that are still in hiding, but they will slowly either get exposed, or expose themselves. Greed always leads to downfall. Copy someone's code and keep it 100% private and there is a chance of avoiding discovery. Of course, no chance of getting into tournaments and such, so fame won't follow. But eventually each wants to go commercial, and once the executables are "out there" the wheels come off...

This is a time-consuming hobby. With a lot of work involved. And one is _not_ going to become successful while living in a dark cave and not communicating.

So, to restate simple facts.

(1) you were completely unknown, unheard-of until Houdini showed up by magic. And amazingly, _after_ ip*/robo* were released.

(2) several have posted lots of data showing identical output when compared to robo* for test positions. C. Conkie being the most vocal and convincing person. One that has been known in CC circles for years.

(3) your explanations are typically far beyond vague, for, I believe, obvious reasons. Most give precise technical answers to specific questions. You do not.

If you think that is an "attack" then go visit any site that offers a Webster's dictionary and look up a word that means "simple statement of facts." Nobody would consider that an "attack."

I've already wasted a ton of time on the Rybka issue. Vas made _exactly_ the same claims you have made. 100% original. No copied code. "I looked at fruit/crafty/etc and took ideas." All a crock. And here we are, again. My bullshit detector burned out a year ago and I am not going to replace it, because it will just burn out again. And in any case, I've given my opinion, based on a _lot_ of experience. And I am not going to waste any more time on Houdini. It is not going to play in any tournaments, which means I am not interested in what happens or doesn't happen to it. Hopefully we will root out _all_ of the pretenders over time. That is a goal that is worthy of attention.

[Houdini]

Hi Roger,

It cannot be that here, in the Technical Sub-forum, that we are going to conduct arguments along the line of who are you, how long have you been involved in computer-chess and is Houdini an original program.

It is also not going to be tenable that wherever you post that you can be asked is Houdini original etc. Then every thread could potentially spiral out of control.

If even Bob feels perfectly happy to produce false quotes and personal attacks, I don't think the anti-Houdini trolls will feel any restriction in the future. It will strongly limit my willingness to interact with this forum.

If there is evidence produce it and let it speak for itself.

I have little evidene unless I publish the source code, which I don't intend to do now.
And against people that are happy to produce false quotes to discredit me, even that might not be good enough.

Thanks for your much appreciated moderation effort,
Robert

[mhull]

3) I've been involved in computer chess since around 1985. That makes about 25 years, not your "over 30 years".

Involved? Many people say this because they owned a chess computer or a program and played with it. It has the sound of that guy who once boasted on this board that he had worked on the SETI project, which it turns out amounted to running the SETI@Home screen saver on his home computer for a while.

I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate, Bob Hyatt style, on the nature of your computer chess involvement in 1985.

[mcostalba]

Let me show you an actual code snippet of a function definition:

Code: Select all

template<$$def_THREAD_ID$$ Kleur IK, bool MULTICORE> 
int Knoop_All($$def_STELLING$$ int BETA, int DIEPTE)
{
	const Kleur JIJ = (IK == WIT ? ZWART : WIT);
	rec_stelling_var *VAR_0 = VAR;
...

Oh my Gosh ! You have chosen variable names in your own mother language !!! That's very funny, it remembers me of Roberto Pescatore's italianized Ippo sources but there I think a good chunk of irony was involved...I am not sure the same is here.

[Gian-Carlo Pascutto]

It's funny how some things stand out, like this:

rec_stelling_var *VAR_0 = VAR;

compare to:

tipo_dinamico *POSIZIONE0 = DINAMICO;

at the same place in the RobboLito sources.

[kranium]

Let me show you an actual code snippet of a function definition:

Code: Select all

template<$$def_THREAD_ID$$ Kleur IK, bool MULTICORE> 
int Knoop_All($$def_STELLING$$ int BETA, int DIEPTE)
{
	const Kleur JIJ = (IK == WIT ? ZWART : WIT);
	rec_stelling_var *VAR_0 = VAR;
...

Oh my Gosh ! You have chosen variable names in your own mother language !!! That's very funny, it remembers me of Roberto Pescatore's italianized Ippo sources but there I think a good chunk of irony was involved...I am not sure the same is here.

Marco-
Your Italian is without question impeccable, but I seriously doubt the Ippo source were 'italianized' as you suggest.

I'm very familiar with the source code, having translated many different Ippo based programs/versions to common English programming terms.

It seems you are suggesting that Pescatore decompiled Rybka, then 'italianized' it (with an Albanian flavor) in an effort to hide his tracks?

[mcostalba]

It seems you are suggesting that Pescatore decompiled Rybka, then 'italianized' it (with an Albanian flavor) in an effort to hide his tracks?

Roberto Pescatore it's a joke name (in italian it means Bobby Fisher!), I am not suggesting anything, just that there are some italianized names of variables / functions in some flavour of ippo sources that are referred to have been done by this guy, no more no less.

[Houdini]

3) I've been involved in computer chess since around 1985. That makes about 25 years, not your "over 30 years".

Involved? Many people say this because they owned a chess computer or a program and played with it. It has the sound of that guy who once boasted on this board that he had worked on the SETI project, which it turns out amounted to running the SETI@Home screen saver on his home computer for a while.

I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate, Bob Hyatt style, on the nature of your computer chess involvement in 1985.

My involvement has been on a personal level, I've been studying and writing chess related code since about 1985 (starting with Richard Lang's Psion chess on a Sinclair QL). My own efforts were mostly in assembler, turbo pascal, Delphi. I have in the past sent two of my earlier engines + GUI (written in assembler + Delphi) to a couple of forum members, send me an e-mail if you want your own copy.

Note that I've already stated all this at least 2 or 3 times before on this forum, if you'd care to use the forum search function you'll find more information.

And again, what all this has to do in a "Question on SMP Search" thread is a mystery...

Robert