Borislav Ivanov: a Lilov's add-on

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

And in Bulgaria things definitely changed for worse recently, also with a Turkish implication.....

Best, Lyudmil

for worse? you're a clairvoyant aren`t you?

Evgeni, you should not be a clairvoyant, if you have lived for the past 25 years in Bulgaria...

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Hi Taner.
The 10-0 routs of Rybka and Houdini were obviously an emotional statement; but you can expect that from a person at whom all are pointing a finger shouting 'You, cheater!'. Imagine for a moment that the accusation comes as a complete surprise to him.

I think his earlier games show some very good positional understanding combined with making lots of mistakes. Getting rid of mistakes, improving tactically could warrant a sudden strength increase.
About playing weak in some tournaments and strong in others - but that is about true for all, look at some recent world-class tournaments, there are very often players significantly underperforming, and players significantly outperforming. And that might be valid not just for a single tournament, but for a whole stretch of events spanning an extended period of time.

The smoke is in and around Taksim Square, will there be fire?

Well Taksim had a lot of "fire" last week or so after years of smoke caused by the policies of the ruling party and the message was clearly taken by the government although our prime minister looks like he does not want to back off. We'll see how it goes but I'm not expecting a Turkish spring type of revolution in Turkey but things changed for good here.

And in Bulgaria things definitely changed for worse recently, also with a Turkish implication.....

Best, Lyudmil

Back off buddy....

This is a respected computer chess forum and not a place to expose your racism over it's members.........

Your post has been reported to the mods

[Don]

Honestly, I never thought that in the computer chess forum there will be anyone who doubts B.I. is cheating. But it's never to late to learn new things, obviously

Nothing surprises me - and I think this just proves the point that humans are driven more by feelings that facts, even us logical engineer types.

I don't claim to be above it all, but I'm still staggered by how much of a sucker people can be. I guess that is why emails scams work so well and why pan-handlers are flourishing.

Speaking of pan-handlers, this is a true story:

When I was in Edmonton one year for a computer chess tournament a bum walked up to us, it was Larry, David Kittenger and myself. He gave us a hard luck story - and he looked surprisingly like the bum on the cover of Jethro Tull's aqualung album and he came across as being in great need. This guy was playing the part like you wouldn't believe. I went on the offensive and said, "that's funny, I am out of money myself and was going to ask YOU for some cash!"

What happened next surprised us all. He KNEW we were on to him and he immediately decided to have some fun with it, so he pulled wads of cash out of his pockets and asked me how much I needed! All four of us had a good laugh over this one.

We have those types where I live and I am staggered at how much of a sucker people can be. They hang out at one of those big gas stations and I keep seeing people giving him money. They are taken in. Over time I have seen the same ones there, even though their story is that it is a temporary thing.

One guy said he had not eaten in 2 days and needed just a little bit for some food and I was on my way to grab a quick burger. It was right across the street and I offered to buy him a burger and fry - but only if he would meet me over there. And yet this poor starving guy was not interested in being fed.

This Ivanov guy is just another type of hustler. They take advantage of our human nature and compassion and our willingness to give people the benefit of the doubt and they don't mind stretching that as far as it will take them. There are more than enough people willing to believe them, perhaps they want to believe it could happen to themselves.

They say there is one born every minute (a sucker) and evidently even this forum has a few!

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Hi Taner.
The 10-0 routs of Rybka and Houdini were obviously an emotional statement;

So now you are calling him a liar with no facts to back this up and simply just saying it's "obvious?" Where are your facts? Did you see him play these 20 games? How do you know he didn't do this?

Sarcasm aside, why is it not ok for us to see what is ridiculously obvious but it's ok for you?

I think this lie (I agree with you on this) speaks to his character and motivation. It's not proof of anything but it fits a very natural pattern. He is willing to cheat and lie to look good.

I am not that willing to discount a single good performance because it has happened to me in chess and other things. But I still don't believe he won 20 games in a row. But here are 2 anecdotes about unusually good performances:

I used to bowl and I am something like a 130 average bowler, basically I suck at it. I visited my younger brother from out of state many years ago who has a little bit of a younger brother inferiority complex (the older brother usually is better at things growing up because he is older.) He challenged me to bowl as he felt he could beat me at this and was a good tournament bowler. There was little question in my mind that he would win and in fact I wanted him to win to put the foolish sibling rivalry complex stuff behind us. We bowled 3 games and every game I bowled was over 220, I was scoring like a pro and my best game that night was 268 which was just ridiculously high for me. I don't think I failed to either strike or spare. My brother bowled much higher than I should have been expected to bowl but it was nothing like I was bowling. It really struck me as a bizarre ironic thing that it worked out that way. Telling him it was a fluke and that he should have won just sounded hollow.

In other experience, I was teaching a chess playing friend to golf for the first time and we went to little par 3 golf course where you could rent clubs in order to get him started. He immediately fell in love with the game. On only our SECOND trip to this little course, he shot a hole in one on the second longest hole! It was only 105 yards, not very long as far as par 3 holes go but it was still pretty impressive and unexpected. We saw it roll up onto the green and then it was hard to see the ball. We spend about 5 minutes looking for it after getting to the green and there was really nowhere for it to go so it seemed strange to us that it wasn't in plain view but we looked very carefully around the green and wondered if some animal carried it away. Psychologically we were not even considering the possibility that it went in the hole but we eventually decided that it would make sense to check there!

... but you can expect that from a person at whom all are pointing a finger shouting 'You, cheater!'. Imagine for a moment that the accusation comes as a complete surprise to him.

I think his earlier games show some very good positional understanding combined with making lots of mistakes. Getting rid of mistakes, improving tactically could warrant a sudden strength increase.
About playing weak in some tournaments and strong in others - but that is about true for all, look at some recent world-class tournaments, there are very often players significantly underperforming, and players significantly outperforming. And that might be valid not just for a single tournament, but for a whole stretch of events spanning an extended period of time.

The smoke is in and around Taksim Square, will there be fire?

Don, I am not quite much into golfing or bowling, you might need to draw in some specialists to discuss with you on the matter, but what concerns the 10-0 wins over Rybka and Houdini, I think it is not only obvious, but very much obvious, obvious to an undisputable point, that a player that posts 10-0 wins over Rybka and Houdini would score perfectly in any of the tournaments Ivanov has been playing in as of late, something which he actually did not do.

But do I notice a sudden sharp increase of resentful attitude against me. What could it possibly be due to? I should investigate the matter even with the inconclusive evidence at my disposal at the moment; however, in no way shall I state absolutely categorically that you are suddenly resentful of me before I have been through with my investigation, an approach that was used to the detriment of Borislav and fair play.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Hi Taner.
The 10-0 routs of Rybka and Houdini were obviously an emotional statement;

So now you are calling him a liar with no facts to back this up and simply just saying it's "obvious?" Where are your facts? Did you see him play these 20 games? How do you know he didn't do this?

Sarcasm aside, why is it not ok for us to see what is ridiculously obvious but it's ok for you?

I think this lie (I agree with you on this) speaks to his character and motivation. It's not proof of anything but it fits a very natural pattern. He is willing to cheat and lie to look good.

I am not that willing to discount a single good performance because it has happened to me in chess and other things. But I still don't believe he won 20 games in a row. But here are 2 anecdotes about unusually good performances:

I used to bowl and I am something like a 130 average bowler, basically I suck at it. I visited my younger brother from out of state many years ago who has a little bit of a younger brother inferiority complex (the older brother usually is better at things growing up because he is older.) He challenged me to bowl as he felt he could beat me at this and was a good tournament bowler. There was little question in my mind that he would win and in fact I wanted him to win to put the foolish sibling rivalry complex stuff behind us. We bowled 3 games and every game I bowled was over 220, I was scoring like a pro and my best game that night was 268 which was just ridiculously high for me. I don't think I failed to either strike or spare. My brother bowled much higher than I should have been expected to bowl but it was nothing like I was bowling. It really struck me as a bizarre ironic thing that it worked out that way. Telling him it was a fluke and that he should have won just sounded hollow.

In other experience, I was teaching a chess playing friend to golf for the first time and we went to little par 3 golf course where you could rent clubs in order to get him started. He immediately fell in love with the game. On only our SECOND trip to this little course, he shot a hole in one on the second longest hole! It was only 105 yards, not very long as far as par 3 holes go but it was still pretty impressive and unexpected. We saw it roll up onto the green and then it was hard to see the ball. We spend about 5 minutes looking for it after getting to the green and there was really nowhere for it to go so it seemed strange to us that it wasn't in plain view but we looked very carefully around the green and wondered if some animal carried it away. Psychologically we were not even considering the possibility that it went in the hole but we eventually decided that it would make sense to check there!

... but you can expect that from a person at whom all are pointing a finger shouting 'You, cheater!'. Imagine for a moment that the accusation comes as a complete surprise to him.

I think his earlier games show some very good positional understanding combined with making lots of mistakes. Getting rid of mistakes, improving tactically could warrant a sudden strength increase.
About playing weak in some tournaments and strong in others - but that is about true for all, look at some recent world-class tournaments, there are very often players significantly underperforming, and players significantly outperforming. And that might be valid not just for a single tournament, but for a whole stretch of events spanning an extended period of time.

The smoke is in and around Taksim Square, will there be fire?

Don, I am not quite much into golfing or bowling, you might need to draw in some specialists to discuss with you on the matter, but what concerns the 10-0 wins over Rybka and Houdini, I think it is not only obvious, but very much obvious, obvious to an undisputable point, that a player that posts 10-0 wins over Rybka and Houdini would score perfectly in any of the tournaments Ivanov has been playing in as of late, something which he actually did not do.

But do I notice a sudden sharp increase of resentful attitude against me. What could it possibly be due to? I should investigate the matter even with the inconclusive evidence at my disposal at the moment; however, in no way shall I state absolutely categorically that you are suddenly resentful of me before I have been through with my investigation, an approach that was used to the detriment of Borislav and fair play.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Hi Taner.
The 10-0 routs of Rybka and Houdini were obviously an emotional statement; but you can expect that from a person at whom all are pointing a finger shouting 'You, cheater!'. Imagine for a moment that the accusation comes as a complete surprise to him.

I think his earlier games show some very good positional understanding combined with making lots of mistakes. Getting rid of mistakes, improving tactically could warrant a sudden strength increase.
About playing weak in some tournaments and strong in others - but that is about true for all, look at some recent world-class tournaments, there are very often players significantly underperforming, and players significantly outperforming. And that might be valid not just for a single tournament, but for a whole stretch of events spanning an extended period of time.

The smoke is in and around Taksim Square, will there be fire?

Well Taksim had a lot of "fire" last week or so after years of smoke caused by the policies of the ruling party and the message was clearly taken by the government although our prime minister looks like he does not want to back off. We'll see how it goes but I'm not expecting a Turkish spring type of revolution in Turkey but things changed for good here.

And in Bulgaria things definitely changed for worse recently, also with a Turkish implication.....

Best, Lyudmil

Back off buddy....

This is a respected computer chess forum and not a place to expose your racism over it's members.........

Your post has been reported to the mods

Hi Wael.
I think this is not racism, but a psychological warfare.
I think the 'cheaters' should back off.

Best, Lyudmil

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Hi Taner.
The 10-0 routs of Rybka and Houdini were obviously an emotional statement; but you can expect that from a person at whom all are pointing a finger shouting 'You, cheater!'. Imagine for a moment that the accusation comes as a complete surprise to him.

I think his earlier games show some very good positional understanding combined with making lots of mistakes. Getting rid of mistakes, improving tactically could warrant a sudden strength increase.
About playing weak in some tournaments and strong in others - but that is about true for all, look at some recent world-class tournaments, there are very often players significantly underperforming, and players significantly outperforming. And that might be valid not just for a single tournament, but for a whole stretch of events spanning an extended period of time.

The smoke is in and around Taksim Square, will there be fire?

Well Taksim had a lot of "fire" last week or so after years of smoke caused by the policies of the ruling party and the message was clearly taken by the government although our prime minister looks like he does not want to back off. We'll see how it goes but I'm not expecting a Turkish spring type of revolution in Turkey but things changed for good here.

And in Bulgaria things definitely changed for worse recently, also with a Turkish implication.....

Best, Lyudmil

Back off buddy....

This is a respected computer chess forum and not a place to expose your racism over it's members.........

Your post has been reported to the mods

Hi Wael.
I think this is not racism, but a psychological warfare.
I think the 'cheaters' should back off.

Best, Lyudmil

Hi Lyudmil,

I lived in Bulgaria 21 years and one of the most amazing qualities of this nation is it's tolerance toward the foreigners......

I hope things will get better in Bulgaria and I wish all the best for you and the bulgarian nation......
Dr.D

P.S.The affair in question is a mystery to me....I can't take neither side in this discussion as I don't have enough information to judge upon......

[Taner Altinsoy]

Hi Taner.
The 10-0 routs of Rybka and Houdini were obviously an emotional statement; but you can expect that from a person at whom all are pointing a finger shouting 'You, cheater!'. Imagine for a moment that the accusation comes as a complete surprise to him.

I think his earlier games show some very good positional understanding combined with making lots of mistakes. Getting rid of mistakes, improving tactically could warrant a sudden strength increase.
About playing weak in some tournaments and strong in others - but that is about true for all, look at some recent world-class tournaments, there are very often players significantly underperforming, and players significantly outperforming. And that might be valid not just for a single tournament, but for a whole stretch of events spanning an extended period of time.

The smoke is in and around Taksim Square, will there be fire?

Well Taksim had a lot of "fire" last week or so after years of smoke caused by the policies of the ruling party and the message was clearly taken by the government although our prime minister looks like he does not want to back off. We'll see how it goes but I'm not expecting a Turkish spring type of revolution in Turkey but things changed for good here.

And in Bulgaria things definitely changed for worse recently, also with a Turkish implication.....

Best, Lyudmil

Back off buddy....

This is a respected computer chess forum and not a place to expose your racism over it's members.........

Your post has been reported to the mods

Hi Wael.
I think this is not racism, but a psychological warfare.
I think the 'cheaters' should back off.

Best, Lyudmil

When I read it the first time I did not get and I still have hard time understanding what you mean. Are you referring to the latest election in Bulgaria or sth like that about Turkish citizens in Bulgaria? If you are I really don't care and I think everyone here (I mean both in Turkey and in this forum) have better things to do and talk about...

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

I do not know why everybody is attacking the guy while there is no evidence whatsoever that he is cheating apart from some inconclusive computer-related speculations.

There is something called "common sense" and there is something called "expertise"

Than what would you call expertise, Lilov's analyses, which Miguel shows are dubious at the least?

Borislav is living on his own, his parents are divorced and half of the family lives abroad. I think he has a tough time of it just because of this reason. Reading some Bulgarian chess fora, you would be surprised at the viciousness of the attacks against him, although he tries to keep his ground by retorting accordingly.

Oh I`m almost touched. Poor boy, this Ivanov! By the way, I agree with your opinion about attacks against him in bulgarian chess fora -- they are way too much beyond the "bon ton".

But why no one wants to play with him? They are reluctant to help clear the matter, while Borislav is eager to time and again be put to the test of being exposed guilty. His attitude convinces me more than that of his detractors.

He is not a programmer, and I am convinced that he is more or less technically ignorant, not to mention trying to make use of complex schemes beyond the grasp of everybody around for personal benefit.
He has been thoroughly checked on more than one occasions and nothing has been found. It might have been humiliating to pass through this experience. Exceptional results at blitz (the Kyustendil tournament) would also suggest that he is not making use of any engine aid. It is simply impossible to be suspected of cheating while making a couple of moves in a couple of seconds, sometimes immediately after the opponent's move. There is simply no possibility to cheat there.

"Thoroughly"? I`m not so sure. Or may be we have different views about the real meaning of this word "thoroughly".

It was as thorough as it could be given the particular circumstances. The important thing at that is that he did not attempt obstructing any suggested checks.

I do not buy into those 'first lines' of Houdini. Everyone knows that first lines would depend on hardware used, time control, etc. So if Lilov claims Borislav is playing some 90% Houdini's first choices, than Lilov must be a clairvoyant to have knowledge of the hardware and settings of the machine used for cheating. I would assume it is easier to be a 'genius' than a clairvoyant. Should we now accuse Lilov of 'clairvoyancy'?

The Bulgarian chess federation banned Borislav for 4 months (exactly for the period when there are plenty of tourneys on the Black Sea Coast) on no reasonable grounds at all. They simply did not have the right to do that, as you know that everyone is innocent until proven otherwise. It is interesting to know why did not they investigate alleged cases of purchased GM and other titles throughout the years. You have the games, everything would look very suspicicous, but they would just close their eyes. It is interesting that some of the players that bought their titles (by securing points under the table in vital games) are now very vociferant against Borislav.

Bulgarian chess federation banned B.I. for his "unethical behavior" and public statements like "chess players are buttheads". That was official reason for banning him. Unofficial was that summer tournaments would suffer from many chess players boycotting them (it's just my guess based on some facts).

Evgeni, when you are bound to speculate on 'official' and 'unofficial' reasons for a decision, then the decision sucks.

I have looked into the games of Borko and I would say that even before 2012 he has had a pretty nice level of play and positional understanding, scoring many wins way above what his elo status would suggest at the time. If you do this once, you can certainly do it many more times. Starting from Zadar onwards, I would say that what could arouse doubt is not the probable high-percentage of so called 'Houdini first choices', because some of those moves are really very natural and human, but the 5 to 10 percent of engine-like moves in certain games.

What would you say about his performance at Tringov Memorial this year? A steady growth? Mmm, no. So what is it?

It has been the first tournament after Zadar, it has been difficult to play psychologically.

Is 10% a high percentage to claim that he is cheating, or maybe there is a way after all for a normal human to play a couple of strictly-computer moves in a game? I would rather say that it is quite possible to play such moves, if the person has been training extensively with engines and has some natural penchant for the engines' style. I do not see why not. Borislav claims to have started training with computer assistance only recently (to be more precise, during 2012) and maybe that has boosted his strength significantly.

The guy himself says that he is neither a cheater, nor a genius, but has some natural talent for deep concentration and keeping calm throughout the games. I think concentrating properly is really very important and that could explain taking of decisions very close to computer choices.

Personally, I am convinced, that it is possible for humans to play on a much higher level than they would think they could play under normal conditions, if they have the opportunity to concentrate properly. Normal tournament conditions (high level of noise, distracting practices of opponents, unfair competition, stress) are not ideal for concentrating at a level to start playing machine-like moves, but what if a person has a natural talent for concentration?

Borislav has invited a couple of Bulgarian GMs to match their strengths with all necessary checks being carried out, but they have all refused. I would not say a cheater would make such a step. He has proposed to Kiril Georgiev to play in a 'bunker' with no possibility for electronic interference. He is eager to play in other tournaments, and I think no cheater would esily do that too. A couple of days ago he has had a thorough check carried on him in the Military Medical Academy in Sofia, and the medics said that he is clear what concerns possible subcutaneous devices, so that he has nothing implanted on him. His clothes and belongings have also been regularly checked.

Going back to those 'first line' assumptions, I do not see why a really clever cheater would not use Discocheck or Texel for aid instead of Houdini, with sufficient incoming boost of strength, as there would hardly be anyone suggesting the guy has used Discocheck (at least at the current status of Discocheck). Those first line scenarios are absolutely paranoic.

I think humans in general have difficulty imagining that they could play at a level similar to top engines, and therefore most GMs and strong players simply ignore the problem that there is an artificial intelligence far exceeding their normal GM capabilites, making their performances mostly irrelevant. And the problem is of course, lack of sufficient computer training and lack of in-depth concentration. Maybe if you find a way to concentrate at a much deeper level you would not readily join the camp of supporters of cheating accusations when they are totally devoid of ground.

Best, Lyudmil

Honestly, I never thought that in the computer chess forum there will be anyone who doubts B.I. is cheating. But it's never to late to learn new things, obviously

It is never too late to learn new things, really.

Best, Lyudmil

[Don]

Don, I am not quite much into golfing or bowling, you might need to draw in some specialists to discuss with you on the matter, but what concerns the 10-0 wins over Rybka and Houdini, I think it is not only obvious, but very much obvious, obvious to an undisputable point, that a player that posts 10-0 wins over Rybka and Houdini would score perfectly in any of the tournaments Ivanov has been playing in as of late, something which he actually did not do.

But do I notice a sudden sharp increase of resentful attitude against me. What could it possibly be due to?

It's probably due to your imagination. I don't have any bad feelings at all towards you.

I should investigate the matter even with the inconclusive evidence at my disposal at the moment; however, in no way shall I state absolutely categorically that you are suddenly resentful of me before I have been through with my investigation, an approach that was used to the detriment of Borislav and fair play.

None of us are actually involved in this investigation, so whatever you and I say will have no impact on what happens.

They are not trying to figure out IF he did it, they know he did it. What is left to do is to figure out HOW he did it. But that does not have to stop them from imposing their ban.

You have a totally wrong idea if you think I have any bad feelings for you or anyone who agrees with you or does not agree with me. When the issue of Rybka came up I made a lot of enemies, even though I have no bad feelings about those who believe differently than I do. In that case I was attacked pretty aggressively, my motives were put into question and I was accused to wanting to assassinate all my opposition. And I took a lot of harsh criticism. But my style is not to leave things unsaid - although I probably would be better off if I sometimes did leave some things unsaid.

I would remind you that you said some things that I could take personally if I wanted to such as telling Graham that the only thing that mattered is what I say. And yet I did not take that as animosity. If you want to be able to dish it out, then you must also have a thick enough skin to take a little criticism yourself and not assume that someone is going after you.