Shredder 10.1 now released

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw

Uri Blass
Posts: 10424
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Shredder 10.1 now released

Post by Uri Blass »

mclane wrote:what astonishes me the most is, why deep shredder10 is twice as expensive than zapchess, although with the new zanzibar update it is weaker.

why should somebody pay 2x the price (99.95 EURO/US$ versus 49 EURO for zapchess) of a software
(Deep shredder 10 64 bit 2 CPU ELO 2919) that is 109 ELO weaker (than Zapchess zanzibar 64bit 2 CPU ELO 3028) ????

i hope this question is no sakrileg !
Price has nothing to do with playing strength.

Toga is without doubt stronger than some commercial programs so by the logic of lower price for weaker programs the price of tiger or ruffian should be negative or in other words the programmers of tiger and ruffian should pay people for the fact that they use their program.

Uri
User avatar
Sylwy
Posts: 4567
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:19 pm
Location: IASI - the historical capital of MOLDOVA
Full name: SilvianR

Re: To be rich men

Post by Sylwy »

So if you want to became rich men use weak commercial chess engines....
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Nice idea !
Sylwy
User avatar
mclane
Posts: 18775
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: US of Europe, germany
Full name: Thorsten Czub

Re: Shredder 10.1 now released

Post by mclane »

Comparing Zap!Chess with Shredder 10 classic is just like compare Ferrari with VW Golf. Yes, the engines/top speed (playstrenght) might be equal or slightly better for Zap!Chess,
it is very possible that shredder10 is like a VW Golf.

you call 109 ELO
might be equal or slightly better
??

of course, when i have the chance to get the charme of a ferrari, related with the charme of a VW Golf, that is 109 ELO weaker, i will take the ferrari of course.
User avatar
mclane
Posts: 18775
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: US of Europe, germany
Full name: Thorsten Czub

Re: Shredder 10.1 now released

Post by mclane »

I also think that the price is OK, because when Zapchess was first released the single CPU version wasnt close enough in strength with single CPU shredder
but this is what i mean:
when zapchess was released, the price of shredder might have been ok.
now - since zanzibar came out and brought a progress in playing strength, the relation of price and strength of deep shredder10 is IMO not justified anymore.

either a stronger versions comes out, that would justify the price, or the price of the old version 10 is IMO too high.
Cubeman
Posts: 644
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:11 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Shredder 10.1 now released

Post by Cubeman »

There is a difference maybe because Anthony Cozzie has stopped programming chess engines and so does not care about making a financial living from this pursuit.Where as SMK has continued to work on Shredder and deserves the most that he can get.Money is the incentive for him to keep on improving and good on him.
User avatar
Daniel Mehrmann
Posts: 858
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:24 pm
Location: Germany
Full name: Daniel Mehrmann

Re: Shredder 10.1 now released

Post by Daniel Mehrmann »

Tony Thomas wrote:
Daniel Mehrmann wrote:
mclane wrote:i wonder why stefan is not reducing the price of shredder, since it has now an enemy (Zapchess) beeing stronger and less expensive.
Comparing Zap!Chess with Shredder 10 classic is just like compare Ferrari with VW Golf. Yes, the engines/top speed (playstrenght) might be equal or slightly better for Zap!Chess, but everything else like own GUI, triple-brain, 6-men access, endgame oracle, ..., are features only supported by Shredder.

I think the price is ok and acceptable. :)

Best,
Daniel
You got that analogy right, Zapchess being the Ferrari. Zapchess comes with an own GUI, how do you know that the GUI it comes with isnt its own? Did the GUI tell you NO? I dont know if Triple brain is a useful feature, I havent heard of any correspondence players recently stating that they use that feature. Zapchess also supports endgame tablebases, who needs 6 men tablebases, Zap will kick Shredders doody even before it get that far. :wink: I also think that the price is OK, because when Zapchess was first released the single CPU version wasnt close enough in strength with single CPU shredder.
Just one question: Do you have Shredder 10 classic ?


Best,
Daniel
Last edited by Daniel Mehrmann on Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Uri Blass
Posts: 10424
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Shredder 10.1 now released

Post by Uri Blass »

Cubeman wrote:There is a difference maybe because Anthony Cozzie has stopped programming chess engines and so does not care about making a financial living from this pursuit.Where as SMK has continued to work on Shredder and deserves the most that he can get.Money is the incentive for him to keep on improving and good on him.
If 100 elo improvement is the result of stopping to program then it may be better if SMK also stop programming.

I find it hard to believe that SMK works full time job on shredder and get almost no improvement when Anthony Cozzie stopped programming and got 100 elo improvement in the same time.

Stopping programming is also not a reason not to prefer to earn as much as possible from what you programmed in the past so claiming that anthony does not care about money because he stopped programming is not convincing.

Uri
Uri Blass
Posts: 10424
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Shredder 10.1 now released

Post by Uri Blass »

mclane wrote:
I also think that the price is OK, because when Zapchess was first released the single CPU version wasnt close enough in strength with single CPU shredder
but this is what i mean:
when zapchess was released, the price of shredder might have been ok.
now - since zanzibar came out and brought a progress in playing strength, the relation of price and strength of deep shredder10 is IMO not justified anymore.

either a stronger versions comes out, that would justify the price, or the price of the old version 10 is IMO too high.
People have the right to decide about the price they like to sell their program and customers have the right if to buy or not to buy it.

The only justification to the price is if SMK can make more money by higher price.
Of course higher price can mean less customers but it still can be enough customers to justify the higher price.

I am not sure if reducing the price now by SMK is a smart decision and it is possible that part of the customers are going to be angry that other buy what they bought for more money and decide not to buy shredder in the future.

I do not think that it is a logical reason but I read in the past that customers do not behave in a logical way and if the price of something goes down after they buy it they can get angry instead of being happy for the other people that can buy it for cheaper price.

Uri
Tony Thomas

Re: Shredder 10.1 now released

Post by Tony Thomas »

mclane wrote:
I also think that the price is OK, because when Zapchess was first released the single CPU version wasnt close enough in strength with single CPU shredder
but this is what i mean:
when zapchess was released, the price of shredder might have been ok.
now - since zanzibar came out and brought a progress in playing strength, the relation of price and strength of deep shredder10 is IMO not justified anymore.

either a stronger versions comes out, that would justify the price, or the price of the old version 10 is IMO too high.
It wouldnt make any sense for Stefan to suddenly decrease the price of the MP version, if he does that lot of people who bought single cpu engine just because of the price would be pissed off. A new version of Shredder will be coming out soon, but the 10.1 was a gracious update for all the owners of the program or so my email said.
User avatar
mclane
Posts: 18775
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: US of Europe, germany
Full name: Thorsten Czub

Re: Shredder 10.1 now released

Post by mclane »

I do not think that it is a logical reason but I read in the past that customers do not behave in a logical way and if the price of something goes down after they buy it they can get angry instead of being happy for the other people that can buy it for cheaper price.

Uri
that is how free market works.

things get cheaper, thats jopw capitalism works.
if the things would not get cheaper when they are older only because some customers would be pissed, capitalism would not work.

have you ever seen a customer complain because the PC he bought 4 months ago for 2000 $ is now suddenly 500 $?