Rybka vs top human match

[M ANSARI]

I believe the 3 move opening book really evens out the match. A well prepared strong GM should have a 50% chance of winning. At the moment engines can play tremendously strong with use of specially prepared books. A strong GM is usually extremely well prepared with opening theory ... I think everyone here has witnessed games where Kasparov simply crushed his opponent by tremendous home opening preparation. I know I have, and I was mesmerized by every one of those games. I will go even further and say that without home preparation advantage the top 10 GM's would be totally different. Someone like Svidler or Aronian will probably be number one.

That is why I think this will be an interesting match up. How strong are engines today if they had to think from the opening stages of the game. I have a feeling that humans are a lot stronger than many people think.

[Terry McCracken]

Utter nonsense! I've played thousands of both human and computer chess games. I've analized both, and humans win hands down for creativity and ingenious play!!

Programs are calculators, humans create, machines don't, and the best human chess positionally and tactically are still beyond computers.

Computers have only one thing that humans don't, stamina.

They can't create, they can't multi-stage plan, and positionally are not in the same class.

You haven't the ability to see this. In fact I doubt you know the game very well.

Do you play chess?

What computer can reproduce the brilliant play of Anand?

None!!!

[Event "Corus Wijk aan Zee"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee"]
[Date "2006.01.14"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "Round 1"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Sergey Karjakin"]
[Black "Viswanathan Anand"]
[ECO "B90"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "74"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 e5
7. Nb3 Be6 8. f3 Be7 9. Qd2 O-O 10. O-O-O Nbd7 11. g4 b5
12. g5 b4 13. Ne2 Ne8 14. f4 a5 15. f5 a4 16. Nbd4 exd4
17. Nxd4 b3 18. Kb1 bxc2+ 19. Nxc2 Bb3 20. axb3 axb3 21. Na3
Ne5 22. h4 Ra5 23. Qc3 Qa8 24. Bg2 Nc7 25. Qxc7 Rc8 26. Qxe7
Nc4 27. g6 hxg6 28. fxg6 Nxa3+ 29. bxa3 Rxa3 30. gxf7+ Kh7
31. f8=N+ Rxf8 32. Qxf8 Ra1+ 33. Kb2 Ra2+ 34. Kc3 Qa5+ 35. Kd3
Qb5+ 36. Kd4 Ra4+ 37. Kc3 Qc4+ 0-1

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1385670

Whose superior? Not the computers!!! Anand shows his mastery and depth of play, the superiorty of humans over machines!
A computer can't reproduce this play in 40/2 TC's
Computers are not in the same class!

This is Chess!!!

[d]q3nrk1/4bppp/3p4/r3nPP1/4P2P/NpQ1B3/1P4B1/1K1R3R b - - 0 24

24...Nc7!!

Hi Terry

Although I fully agree with your preference for human creativity, your example is not adequate although the game is a real gem.

Here is Chessbase comment after the game :
(http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2864):

"23.Qc3N. Karjakin deviates from Leko-Vallejo in Monte Carlo 2005, where 23.Qe2 was played and the game ended in a draw after 67 moves. But Anand is prepared: 23...Qa8 24.Bg2.
24...Nc7! An amazing move by Anand, played á tempo and obviously coming from home preparation."

Anand himself said that 24..Nc7 was home preparation...

... and he just declared that his home prep is largely computer-based.

So this wonderful game is probably not the best example for showing human superiority over the comp ...



Marc

How about this combination?

[d]4q1kr/p6p/1prQPppB/4n3/4P3/2P5/PP2B2P/R5K1 w - - 0 1

Qxe5!!

[frosch]

I was watching the game live on ICC and as far s I remember anand spend some time for it. (might be transmission time)
of course this move might be homeanalysis, but I also read an interview in the german magazin "schach", where anand stated: "I saw it to the very end" if it's homeanalysis, you can assume there's a comp involved, but the comp might not be responsible for the move. every GM in fact also players like you and me would consider this move. it's just not too easy to calculate every important line. as usual the comp is just a tool to check your ideas.

[frosch]

it's pretty likely, that the GM will outplay rybka in the opening and early middlegame in most games. but if he doesn't play such a clean game like kramnik with some simplifications, he will come to a point, where has to take some risks and go for tactical lines. rybka is just very strong in defending.

I would be happy if the match takes place and the GM can be a match.
kamsky would be a good player versus rybka but probably to expensive.

[Uri Blass]

The comp is enough to find the move in home preperation when you have the freedom to use it for more than 3 minutes per move.

No need to check original ideas.

Uri

[Terry McCracken]

The comp is enough to find the move in home preperation when you have the freedom to use it for more than 3 minutes per move.

No need to check original ideas.

Uri

Yes, insult GM's further...

I've beaten comps on a good day, I've watched a slightly weaker player win many games from CM 10 at home...he's ~2200 but can play at the 2400 level on a good day.

I watched one person who wasn't even a FM completely outplay Shredder 9 on ICC, but lost on time.

Comps can be beaten! I didn't say it was easy, but it can be done.

To say Anand just used a computer in home preparation without any of his own work is an enormous insult!!

Terry

[nuff]

GMs do use computers for opening preparation remember Kramnik vs Leko and that Queen Sac? Leko refuted it OTB. I can't remember who Kramnik's seconds were but a top human GM is capable of coming up with mind-blowing stuff. Who has read some of the Kavalek files or read of the secret matches that Botvinnik allegedly played?

Back to the Rybka issue a human GM will have a serious chance of victory with a 3 move opening book. Ask anyone who has ever played in the playchess engineroom their results with the default Fritz or Rybka book and their results with a top opening book. According to the SSDF the increase in elo for the latest Rybka is because of the new opening book not "raw strength" in the engine.

Why didn't the Rybka team approach the likes of FIDE/PCA? Instead of Deep Junior vs Deep Fritz it might have been Rybka.

[M ANSARI]

Let's make one thing clear. There are engines and then there is Rybka playing on a minimum of Quad core and 64 bit OS. This Rybka is a formidable opponent that cannot be compared to a single CPU Shredder 9 or CM series ... the difference is tremendous. I know that for a fact because I was able to get a win against almost every engine up till Shredder 10. Rybka is totally different ... it plays moves that I cannot comprehend that seem wrong ... but then are proven right. I gave up trying to beat it a long time ago. Ofcourse you can find little chinks in its armour ... but really it a formidable opponent against any Super GM and I doubt that any human can even come close to challenging Rybka on Quad core 3.2Ghz running on 64bit OS with 6 men TB's and a good book. Thus you HAVE to handicap Rybka to even the playing field. Vas estimates that removing Rybka's book will cost it maybe 50 to 80 ELO points. I have a feeling that might be true on general terms ... but I think a well prepared GM might take advantage of that and make the difference more like 200 or 300 ELO's. I would think that a 2650+ GM would have a 50% chance to win a match with such conditions as mentioned in the proposed match.

[Terry McCracken]

Let's make one thing clear. There are engines and then there is Rybka playing on a minimum of Quad core and 64 bit OS. This Rybka is a formidable opponent that cannot be compared to a single CPU Shredder 9 or CM series ... the difference is tremendous. I know that for a fact because I was able to get a win against almost every engine up till Shredder 10. Rybka is totally different ... it plays moves that I cannot comprehend that seem wrong ... but then are proven right. I gave up trying to beat it a long time ago. Ofcourse you can find little chinks in its armour ... but really it a formidable opponent against any Super GM and I doubt that any human can even come close to challenging Rybka on Quad core 3.2Ghz running on 64bit OS with 6 men TB's and a good book. Thus you HAVE to handicap Rybka to even the playing field. Vas estimates that removing Rybka's book will cost it maybe 50 to 80 ELO points. I have a feeling that might be true on general terms ... but I think a well prepared GM might take advantage of that and make the difference more like 200 or 300 ELO's. I would think that a 2650+ GM would have a 50% chance to win a match with such conditions as mentioned in the proposed match.

I think there are a few left ANSARI, but I'll concede not very many, and they'll need a good deal of computer chess play experience. I'd never compare such a beast with S9 single or smp or CM10. Rybka smp 64bit is simply in a league of its own.

Hydra would lose, and we know Hydra is very strong, but Shredder 8 three years ago playing the first ver. of Hydra gave it a very hard time.

Rybka would have cut off every head! So I imagine Rybka 64 on a dual quad, would do the same to the newer faster Hydra, that won't come out and play!

[Leto]

Let's make one thing clear. There are engines and then there is Rybka playing on a minimum of Quad core and 64 bit OS. This Rybka is a formidable opponent that cannot be compared to a single CPU Shredder 9 or CM series ... the difference is tremendous. I know that for a fact because I was able to get a win against almost every engine up till Shredder 10. Rybka is totally different ... it plays moves that I cannot comprehend that seem wrong ... but then are proven right. I gave up trying to beat it a long time ago. Ofcourse you can find little chinks in its armour ... but really it a formidable opponent against any Super GM and I doubt that any human can even come close to challenging Rybka on Quad core 3.2Ghz running on 64bit OS with 6 men TB's and a good book. Thus you HAVE to handicap Rybka to even the playing field. Vas estimates that removing Rybka's book will cost it maybe 50 to 80 ELO points. I have a feeling that might be true on general terms ... but I think a well prepared GM might take advantage of that and make the difference more like 200 or 300 ELO's. I would think that a 2650+ GM would have a 50% chance to win a match with such conditions as mentioned in the proposed match.

I think there are a few left ANSARI, but I'll concede not very many, and they'll need a good deal of computer chess play experience. I'd never compare such a beast with S9 single or smp or CM10. Rybka smp 64bit is simply in a league of its own.

Hydra would lose, and we know Hydra is very strong, but Shredder 8 three years ago playing the first ver. of Hydra gave it a very hard time.

Rybka would have cut off every head! So I imagine Rybka 64 on a dual quad, would do the same to the newer faster Hydra, that won't come out and play!

Shredder 8 didn't give the first version of Hydra a hard time at all, Shredder only managed 5 draws. You can read about it here:
Hydra beats Shredder by the score 5.5-2.5