Super GM + Engine vs Rybka 3

[ArmyBridge]

It seems that we are reach the time where nobody, even a super GM, have a chance against Rybka 3, I wonder if a Super GM with engine help can beat Rybka 3 on octal system. There is a lote of combos that I would have put on, but I select the 2 strongers GM´s and select Fritz 10.1 because it´s a wild engine that can find tactics tricks, the same for Hiarcs 12 that is very dificult to beat in tactics field, and Zappa that is, from my point of view the closed Rybka rival.
Thanks!!

[Michael Sherwin]

Any Grandmaster using RomiChess!

[Marc MP]

It seems that we are reach the time where nobody, even a super GM, have a chance against Rybka 3, I wonder if a Super GM with engine help can beat Rybka 3 on octal system. There is a lote of combos that I would have put on, but I select the 2 strongers GM´s and select Fritz 10.1 because it´s a wild engine that can find tactics tricks, the same for Hiarcs 12 that is very dificult to beat in tactics field, and Zappa that is, from my point of view the closed Rybka rival.
Thanks!!

Hi Armando,

This would be something interesting to see and maybe marketable for the engine side. I hate to see these matches at pawn odds.

In my opinion the GM + Hiarcs 12 or Fritz 10 or Zappa Mex II will prevail in general but the opening positions reached will be of prime importance. Will Rybka 3 on the octa have access to a anti-human book? (cooked by a GM...) i.e. trying to reach only open positions?

Edit: My point is that I speculate that at classical time control, in closed positions, the human super GM, can still outplay Rybka. The problem is being the tactical implementation of the breakthrough. With the help of a top engine like latest Zappa or Hiarcs, I suggest that the winning conditions are united for the human-engine team.

PS: Otherwise forget about any Freestyle event! Just bench the cpus and it will be enough!


Actually, what I would even more prefer to see, is Rybka 3 on a Pentium III with 64M hash, vs Carlsen (or something like that: sticking the hardware at a time the GM were prevailing and focusing on the software improvement. The bad side is that it leaves apart how recent programs make use of these possibilities...).

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

I don't think that Kramnik has the slightest chance and we've already seen him crushed by Fritz in the near past....
From my point of view,Anand stands the chance with Zappa Mexico II assisting him....


P.S.:Hello Terry

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

It seems that we are reach the time where nobody, even a super GM, have a chance against Rybka 3, I wonder if a Super GM with engine help can beat Rybka 3 on octal system. There is a lote of combos that I would have put on, but I select the 2 strongers GM´s and select Fritz 10.1 because it´s a wild engine that can find tactics tricks, the same for Hiarcs 12 that is very dificult to beat in tactics field, and Zappa that is, from my point of view the closed Rybka rival.
Thanks!!

Hi Armando,

This would be something interesting to see and maybe marketable for the engine side. I hate to see these matches at pawn odds.

In my opinion the GM + Hiarcs 12 or Fritz 10 or Zappa Mex II will prevail in general but the opening positions reached will be of prime importance. Will Rybka 3 on the octa have access to a anti-human book? (cooked by a GM...) i.e. trying to reach only open positions?

Actually, what I would even more prefer to see, is Rybka 3 on a Pentium III with 64M hash, vs Carlsen.

No need for any kind of handicap whatever,we want to see the real situation nowadays even though I am almost certin of the outcome of the encounter between the poor humans and Rybka 3 running on octal machine....

[Marc MP]

It seems that we are reach the time where nobody, even a super GM, have a chance against Rybka 3, I wonder if a Super GM with engine help can beat Rybka 3 on octal system. There is a lote of combos that I would have put on, but I select the 2 strongers GM´s and select Fritz 10.1 because it´s a wild engine that can find tactics tricks, the same for Hiarcs 12 that is very dificult to beat in tactics field, and Zappa that is, from my point of view the closed Rybka rival.
Thanks!!

Hi Armando,

This would be something interesting to see and maybe marketable for the engine side. I hate to see these matches at pawn odds.

In my opinion the GM + Hiarcs 12 or Fritz 10 or Zappa Mex II will prevail in general but the opening positions reached will be of prime importance. Will Rybka 3 on the octa have access to a anti-human book? (cooked by a GM...) i.e. trying to reach only open positions?

Actually, what I would even more prefer to see, is Rybka 3 on a Pentium III with 64M hash, vs Carlsen.

No need for any kind of handicap whatever,we want to see the real situation nowadays even though I am almost certin of the outcome of the encounter between the poor humans and Rybka 3 running on octal machine....

I note that you answered my first, unedited message.

My point is, maybe you see it better now that I added a few things, is that on today's top hardware, the human super GM got no chance at tournament time control. I agree with that. Even if it can outplay the comp for a while, when the tactical phase will begin - you need a pawn breakthrough for the human side at some point to win - I believe the super human GM won't be able to prevail but in some rare cases.

The with the help of a quad or octal Zappa... Just hand them in the game once it is strategically one...

That reminds me of the game yesterday, the freestyle between Rybka 3 and Naum. At the critical point, in my view - at move 37 - we got the following position:

[d]7r/1rq5/1p1b4/p2Pppk1/Q1Pp1p1p/3P3P/PP2RBP1/5RK1 w - - 16 37

If I was Kramnik or Anand, I would hand over my game at this point (it is strategically won for black) to my engine (Naum, Zappa, Hiarcs or so). You see this is the type of position engines with white won't understand: they got the good bishop while black got the bad bishop. But here the rule fails because white's bad bishop is simply impotent while black's bad bishop protects good center pawns that chocke white. Also engines with white will think that black has a weak pawn on h4, but it isn't weak, it can be defended easily. Also engines with white (you see I'm *not* (this is an edit) pushing the blame on Rybka 3 - I analysed the game with Fruit 05/11/03 and the suggested moves were very similar), will think that black's king is in trouble in the middle of the board while, it is in fact, envoying a peaceful vacation from any kind of mate threat.

You see, there are still positions, not so rare, were the engines do not get a clue, and if you get Naum (or that could I've been Zappa or Hiarcs if you prefer) to efficiently finish the job, even today's world's best engine (by miles) will go down from a strategically compromised position to a combo of a top GM and a Top program to finish the job ruthlessly.

PS: I thibk Rybka 3 move here: Qc2 was a big strategic blunder because it allowed b5! (which Naum rightfully played - credit to him). Then blabk will play eventually bxc4 (white can afford, in general, c4xc5 because d5 will eventually fall then.). If white counters with dxc4, then black is given a massive (and destructive!) pawn center. If white counters with bxc4, black continues as in the game with the strong manoeuver pawn a5-a4-a3 followed by the invasion into white's camp of the newly created strong point (for black!) b2.

Of course exact variations must be worked out at this point (for a proof Naum 3.0 did a very good job). And I believe that Kramnik, or Carlsen, or Ivantchuck or Morozevich or many others are able to reach a strategically won position against Rybka 3 like in this game.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

It seems that we are reach the time where nobody, even a super GM, have a chance against Rybka 3, I wonder if a Super GM with engine help can beat Rybka 3 on octal system. There is a lote of combos that I would have put on, but I select the 2 strongers GM´s and select Fritz 10.1 because it´s a wild engine that can find tactics tricks, the same for Hiarcs 12 that is very dificult to beat in tactics field, and Zappa that is, from my point of view the closed Rybka rival.
Thanks!!

Hi Armando,

This would be something interesting to see and maybe marketable for the engine side. I hate to see these matches at pawn odds.

In my opinion the GM + Hiarcs 12 or Fritz 10 or Zappa Mex II will prevail in general but the opening positions reached will be of prime importance. Will Rybka 3 on the octa have access to a anti-human book? (cooked by a GM...) i.e. trying to reach only open positions?

Actually, what I would even more prefer to see, is Rybka 3 on a Pentium III with 64M hash, vs Carlsen.

No need for any kind of handicap whatever,we want to see the real situation nowadays even though I am almost certin of the outcome of the encounter between the poor humans and Rybka 3 running on octal machine....

I note that you answered my first, unedited message.

My point is, maybe you see it better now that I added a few things, is that on today's top hardware, the human super GM got no chance at tournament time control. I agree with that. Even if it can outplay the comp for a while, when the tactical phase will begin - you need a pawn breakthrough for the human side at some point to win - I believe the super human GM won't be able to prevail but in some rare cases.

The with the help of a quad or octal Zappa... Just hand them in the game once it is strategically one...

That reminds me of the game yesterday, the freestyle between Rybka 3 and Naum. At the critical point, in my view - at move 37 - we got the following position:

[d]7r/1rq5/1p1b4/p2Pppk1/Q1Pp1p1p/3P3P/PP2RBP1/5RK1 w - - 16 37

If I was Kramnik or Anand, I would hand over my game at this point (it is strategically won for black) to my engine (Naum, Zappa, Hiarcs or so). You see this is the type of position engines with white won't understand: they got the good bishop while black got the bad bishop. But here the rule fails because white's bad bishop is simply impotent while black's bad bishop protects good center pawns that chocke white. Also engines with white will think that black has a weak pawn on h4, but it isn't weak, it can be defended easily. Also engines with white (you see I'm *not* (this is an edit) pushing the blame on Rybka 3 - I analysed the game with Fruit 05/11/03 and the suggested moves were very similar), will think that black's king is in trouble in the middle of the board while, it is in fact, envoying a peaceful vacation from any kind of mate threat.

You see, there are still positions, not so rare, were the engines do not get a clue, and if you get Naum (or that could I've been Zappa or Hiarcs if you prefer) to efficiently finish the job, even today's world's best engine (by miles) will go down from a strategically compromised position to a combo of a top GM and a Top program to finish the job ruthlessly.

Hi Marc,
Agreed here,but as I've always said:
How many times will the super GM achieve such a position
Even better:
Will the engine with it's tuned opening book for opening positions let the poor human get similar positions

In general the humans are doomed and with the appearence of Rybka 3 the war is over and if anyone doubts my words,let him put the proof on the table for everyone to see,I don't accept empty words no more....

[Uri]

Anand or Kramnik alone are strong enough to beat Deep Rybka 3. They don't need computer help. Top GMs like Anand or Kramnik are stronger than Rybka 3.

[Marc MP]

It seems that we are reach the time where nobody, even a super GM, have a chance against Rybka 3, I wonder if a Super GM with engine help can beat Rybka 3 on octal system. There is a lote of combos that I would have put on, but I select the 2 strongers GM´s and select Fritz 10.1 because it´s a wild engine that can find tactics tricks, the same for Hiarcs 12 that is very dificult to beat in tactics field, and Zappa that is, from my point of view the closed Rybka rival.
Thanks!!

Hi Armando,

This would be something interesting to see and maybe marketable for the engine side. I hate to see these matches at pawn odds.

In my opinion the GM + Hiarcs 12 or Fritz 10 or Zappa Mex II will prevail in general but the opening positions reached will be of prime importance. Will Rybka 3 on the octa have access to a anti-human book? (cooked by a GM...) i.e. trying to reach only open positions?

Actually, what I would even more prefer to see, is Rybka 3 on a Pentium III with 64M hash, vs Carlsen.

No need for any kind of handicap whatever,we want to see the real situation nowadays even though I am almost certin of the outcome of the encounter between the poor humans and Rybka 3 running on octal machine....

I note that you answered my first, unedited message.

My point is, maybe you see it better now that I added a few things, is that on today's top hardware, the human super GM got no chance at tournament time control. I agree with that. Even if it can outplay the comp for a while, when the tactical phase will begin - you need a pawn breakthrough for the human side at some point to win - I believe the super human GM won't be able to prevail but in some rare cases.

The with the help of a quad or octal Zappa... Just hand them in the game once it is strategically one...

That reminds me of the game yesterday, the freestyle between Rybka 3 and Naum. At the critical point, in my view - at move 37 - we got the following position:

[d]7r/1rq5/1p1b4/p2Pppk1/Q1Pp1p1p/3P3P/PP2RBP1/5RK1 w - - 16 37

If I was Kramnik or Anand, I would hand over my game at this point (it is strategically won for black) to my engine (Naum, Zappa, Hiarcs or so). You see this is the type of position engines with white won't understand: they got the good bishop while black got the bad bishop. But here the rule fails because white's bad bishop is simply impotent while black's bad bishop protects good center pawns that chocke white. Also engines with white will think that black has a weak pawn on h4, but it isn't weak, it can be defended easily. Also engines with white (you see I'm *not* (this is an edit) pushing the blame on Rybka 3 - I analysed the game with Fruit 05/11/03 and the suggested moves were very similar), will think that black's king is in trouble in the middle of the board while, it is in fact, envoying a peaceful vacation from any kind of mate threat.

You see, there are still positions, not so rare, were the engines do not get a clue, and if you get Naum (or that could I've been Zappa or Hiarcs if you prefer) to efficiently finish the job, even today's world's best engine (by miles) will go down from a strategically compromised position to a combo of a top GM and a Top program to finish the job ruthlessly.

Hi Marc,
Agreed here,but as I've always said:
How many times will the super GM achieve such a position
Even better:
Will the engine with it's tuned opening book for opening positions let the poor human get similar positions

In general the humans are doomed and with the appearence of Rybka 3 the war is over....

Hi Dr. Deeb,

Just to say I once again edited my position: not because of what you posted here, but to add new explanation (my answer gained in lenght). I just want to make sure, it doesn't look as you overlooked something. I just added new stuff.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

It seems that we are reach the time where nobody, even a super GM, have a chance against Rybka 3, I wonder if a Super GM with engine help can beat Rybka 3 on octal system. There is a lote of combos that I would have put on, but I select the 2 strongers GM´s and select Fritz 10.1 because it´s a wild engine that can find tactics tricks, the same for Hiarcs 12 that is very dificult to beat in tactics field, and Zappa that is, from my point of view the closed Rybka rival.
Thanks!!

Hey Armando,you nasty boy,again you opened a big can of worms