Robert, Question

[kgburcham]

"There is only one reason to hide something. To keep the details secret."

Robert, whenever I am hiding something in my racing to get through the tech line, It is very important to Hide the Hide. I cannot draw attention to my speed increase at all, it will be discovered.

Vas did not do this. In fact Vas put a really big flashing light on his Hide. Vas was not trying to hide his hide at all. Vas said "Hey Chess World look at this, I removed a digit from the kns instead of 4000kns now Rybka will read 400 kns".

This really bugs me. It is as if he did this mickey mouse kns reduction to throw programmers away from something else. Why else he would draw the whole chess worlds attention to what is is hiding?

Another thing that bugs me. Vas thinks the kns hide has a purpose that will work against Robert, Uri, Theron, Uniacke, Amir, Shay, Cozzie, etc..
Game users are not a threat against the Vas code. Vas goal is to deceive other programmers or those that can disassemble his code.

And another thing. Vas said "this aint no race". lol he knows better. I know one guy who sold a kidney to buy an 8x4gig.
All the top gamers know that their games are an extreme depth race inside the best search code, coming out of the best book position---will win you the most games.

Vas is an extreme racer, always looking for the newest four socket.
kgburcham

[bob]

"There is only one reason to hide something. To keep the details secret."

Robert, whenever I am hiding something in my racing to get through the tech line, It is very important to Hide the Hide. I cannot draw attention to my speed increase at all, it will be discovered.

Vas did not do this. In fact Vas put a really big flashing light on his Hide. Vas was not trying to hide his hide at all. Vas said "Hey Chess World look at this, I removed a digit from the kns instead of 4000kns now Rybka will read 400 kns".

This really bugs me. It is as if he did this mickey mouse kns reduction to throw programmers away from something else. Why else he would draw the whole chess worlds attention to what is is hiding?

Another thing that bugs me. Vas thinks the kns hide has a purpose that will work against Robert, Uri, Theron, Uniacke, Amir, Shay, Cozzie, etc..
Game users are not a threat against the Vas code. Vas goal is to deceive other programmers or those that can disassemble his code.

And another thing. Vas said "this aint no race". lol he knows better. I know one guy who sold a kidney to buy an 8x4gig.
All the top gamers know that their games are an extreme depth race inside the best search code, coming out of the best book position---will win you the most games.

Vas is an extreme racer, always looking for the newest four socket.
kgburcham

Simple. _he_ didn't draw attention to this. Others started comparing numbers and noticed that somethings displayed made no sense. Node counts going backward, Impossible NPS values, etc. You can find most of this in discussions a year or two back. He had to say something after there was such a discussion on all message boards (didn't start here in fact) about the funny numbers. Then we had the Strelka disassembly issue where several (I did not pay any attention to it, but others like Cozzie did) and concluded that that version of Rybka had no "super-evaluation to explain the low and fluctuating NPS values.

He hid it as well as you can hide any drag-racing trick. But when you get to the track and cut a 4.5 1/8th mile, nobody is going to say "OK, reasonable on a N/A motor with just a big carb on top..." The results and the numbers have to jive, or else some will start to work on isolating the reasons the numbers don't jive. And they will find that stealth nitrous hookup that was carefully run up the bellhousing, and under the intake so it would not be visible...

[Rolf]

"There is only one reason to hide something. To keep the details secret."

Robert, whenever I am hiding something in my racing to get through the tech line, It is very important to Hide the Hide. I cannot draw attention to my speed increase at all, it will be discovered.

Vas did not do this. In fact Vas put a really big flashing light on his Hide. Vas was not trying to hide his hide at all. Vas said "Hey Chess World look at this, I removed a digit from the kns instead of 4000kns now Rybka will read 400 kns".

This really bugs me. It is as if he did this mickey mouse kns reduction to throw programmers away from something else. Why else he would draw the whole chess worlds attention to what is is hiding?

Another thing that bugs me. Vas thinks the kns hide has a purpose that will work against Robert, Uri, Theron, Uniacke, Amir, Shay, Cozzie, etc..
Game users are not a threat against the Vas code. Vas goal is to deceive other programmers or those that can disassemble his code.

And another thing. Vas said "this aint no race". lol he knows better. I know one guy who sold a kidney to buy an 8x4gig.
All the top gamers know that their games are an extreme depth race inside the best search code, coming out of the best book position---will win you the most games.

Vas is an extreme racer, always looking for the newest four socket.
kgburcham

Simple. _he_ didn't draw attention to this. Others started comparing numbers and noticed that somethings displayed made no sense. Node counts going backward, Impossible NPS values, etc. You can find most of this in discussions a year or two back. He had to say something after there was such a discussion on all message boards (didn't start here in fact) about the funny numbers. Then we had the Strelka disassembly issue where several (I did not pay any attention to it, but others like Cozzie did) and concluded that that version of Rybka had no "super-evaluation to explain the low and fluctuating NPS values.

He hid it as well as you can hide any drag-racing trick. But when you get to the track and cut a 4.5 1/8th mile, nobody is going to say "OK, reasonable on a N/A motor with just a big carb on top..." The results and the numbers have to jive, or else some will start to work on isolating the reasons the numbers don't jive. And they will find that stealth nitrous hookup that was carefully run up the bellhousing, and under the intake so it would not be visible...

Again such a mean propaganda nonsense. Vas isnt hiding something in a race. There is no race with equal chances. This is ridiculous to assume. And you are saying, because someone is better, therefore others must find his secrets instead that they invent their owe ones. What a logic. What a mean twist on usually best American traditions of competition. Nowhere the best is envied so much as in computerchess IMO. Perhaps not, because people cheat with drugs and doping.

[bob]

"There is only one reason to hide something. To keep the details secret."

Robert, whenever I am hiding something in my racing to get through the tech line, It is very important to Hide the Hide. I cannot draw attention to my speed increase at all, it will be discovered.

Vas did not do this. In fact Vas put a really big flashing light on his Hide. Vas was not trying to hide his hide at all. Vas said "Hey Chess World look at this, I removed a digit from the kns instead of 4000kns now Rybka will read 400 kns".

This really bugs me. It is as if he did this mickey mouse kns reduction to throw programmers away from something else. Why else he would draw the whole chess worlds attention to what is is hiding?

Another thing that bugs me. Vas thinks the kns hide has a purpose that will work against Robert, Uri, Theron, Uniacke, Amir, Shay, Cozzie, etc..
Game users are not a threat against the Vas code. Vas goal is to deceive other programmers or those that can disassemble his code.

And another thing. Vas said "this aint no race". lol he knows better. I know one guy who sold a kidney to buy an 8x4gig.
All the top gamers know that their games are an extreme depth race inside the best search code, coming out of the best book position---will win you the most games.

Vas is an extreme racer, always looking for the newest four socket.
kgburcham

Simple. _he_ didn't draw attention to this. Others started comparing numbers and noticed that somethings displayed made no sense. Node counts going backward, Impossible NPS values, etc. You can find most of this in discussions a year or two back. He had to say something after there was such a discussion on all message boards (didn't start here in fact) about the funny numbers. Then we had the Strelka disassembly issue where several (I did not pay any attention to it, but others like Cozzie did) and concluded that that version of Rybka had no "super-evaluation to explain the low and fluctuating NPS values.

He hid it as well as you can hide any drag-racing trick. But when you get to the track and cut a 4.5 1/8th mile, nobody is going to say "OK, reasonable on a N/A motor with just a big carb on top..." The results and the numbers have to jive, or else some will start to work on isolating the reasons the numbers don't jive. And they will find that stealth nitrous hookup that was carefully run up the bellhousing, and under the intake so it would not be visible...

Again such a mean propaganda nonsense. Vas isnt hiding something in a race. There is no race with equal chances. This is ridiculous to assume. And you are saying, because someone is better, therefore others must find his secrets instead that they invent their owe ones. What a logic. What a mean twist on usually best American traditions of competition. Nowhere the best is envied so much as in computerchess IMO. Perhaps not, because people cheat with drugs and doping.

Believe what you want. There are two ways to make progress, one is to copy what others have done, and _everybody_ has been doing this for years. the other is to develop a new idea, and this is one of those things that is becoming more and more rare. If you are one of the ones that come up with a new idea, and you are a commercial author depending on sales for income, then you bet you will do everything possible to protect your idea and hide it from prying eyes for as long as possible, because once it is public, it will no longer be an edge. We already have people developing test positions that can expose many internal details, such as what R factor in null move, does it do reductions, singular extensions, etc. To thwart that kind of analysis requires some gyrations, and those certainly include mangled search depths, node counts, and PV displays...

I used to have a lot of fun on retrograde analysis, where you are given a position and told (say) "White just captured a black knight, which piece now stands on the square where the knight was?" And some are very convoluted in the thought process necessary to eliminate piece by white piece until you are just left with one. And people are capable of doing that with a chess engine. Just give them the executable, and they can tell you a lot about it. Now if you fudge the numbers so that you claim to be searching deeper than you are, or less deeply, and you fudge the node counter so that it appears you are spending more time in evaluation than in search. Anything to throw the observers off the proper analysis path...

[Rolf]

"There is only one reason to hide something. To keep the details secret."

Robert, whenever I am hiding something in my racing to get through the tech line, It is very important to Hide the Hide. I cannot draw attention to my speed increase at all, it will be discovered.

Vas did not do this. In fact Vas put a really big flashing light on his Hide. Vas was not trying to hide his hide at all. Vas said "Hey Chess World look at this, I removed a digit from the kns instead of 4000kns now Rybka will read 400 kns".

This really bugs me. It is as if he did this mickey mouse kns reduction to throw programmers away from something else. Why else he would draw the whole chess worlds attention to what is is hiding?

Another thing that bugs me. Vas thinks the kns hide has a purpose that will work against Robert, Uri, Theron, Uniacke, Amir, Shay, Cozzie, etc..
Game users are not a threat against the Vas code. Vas goal is to deceive other programmers or those that can disassemble his code.

And another thing. Vas said "this aint no race". lol he knows better. I know one guy who sold a kidney to buy an 8x4gig.
All the top gamers know that their games are an extreme depth race inside the best search code, coming out of the best book position---will win you the most games.

Vas is an extreme racer, always looking for the newest four socket.
kgburcham

Simple. _he_ didn't draw attention to this. Others started comparing numbers and noticed that somethings displayed made no sense. Node counts going backward, Impossible NPS values, etc. You can find most of this in discussions a year or two back. He had to say something after there was such a discussion on all message boards (didn't start here in fact) about the funny numbers. Then we had the Strelka disassembly issue where several (I did not pay any attention to it, but others like Cozzie did) and concluded that that version of Rybka had no "super-evaluation to explain the low and fluctuating NPS values.

He hid it as well as you can hide any drag-racing trick. But when you get to the track and cut a 4.5 1/8th mile, nobody is going to say "OK, reasonable on a N/A motor with just a big carb on top..." The results and the numbers have to jive, or else some will start to work on isolating the reasons the numbers don't jive. And they will find that stealth nitrous hookup that was carefully run up the bellhousing, and under the intake so it would not be visible...

Again such a mean propaganda nonsense. Vas isnt hiding something in a race. There is no race with equal chances. This is ridiculous to assume. And you are saying, because someone is better, therefore others must find his secrets instead that they invent their owe ones. What a logic. What a mean twist on usually best American traditions of competition. Nowhere the best is envied so much as in computerchess IMO. Perhaps not, because people cheat with drugs and doping.

Believe what you want. There are two ways to make progress, one is to copy what others have done, and _everybody_ has been doing this for years. the other is to develop a new idea, and this is one of those things that is becoming more and more rare. If you are one of the ones that come up with a new idea, and you are a commercial author depending on sales for income, then you bet you will do everything possible to protect your idea and hide it from prying eyes for as long as possible, because once it is public, it will no longer be an edge. We already have people developing test positions that can expose many internal details, such as what R factor in null move, does it do reductions, singular extensions, etc. To thwart that kind of analysis requires some gyrations, and those certainly include mangled search depths, node counts, and PV displays...

I used to have a lot of fun on retrograde analysis, where you are given a position and told (say) "White just captured a black knight, which piece now stands on the square where the knight was?" And some are very convoluted in the thought process necessary to eliminate piece by white piece until you are just left with one. And people are capable of doing that with a chess engine. Just give them the executable, and they can tell you a lot about it. Now if you fudge the numbers so that you claim to be searching deeper than you are, or less deeply, and you fudge the node counter so that it appears you are spending more time in evaluation than in search. Anything to throw the observers off the proper analysis path...

Bob, what are you doing? Is it really your job to explain how robbers could enter a closed door of your neighbors' home after you were informed what sort of key they were using now? Is that the job of an academic teacher? Just for science purposes? You are completely correct with your description but I miss a word of contempt in your message for such practices. Why are you doing this?

[bob]

"There is only one reason to hide something. To keep the details secret."

Robert, whenever I am hiding something in my racing to get through the tech line, It is very important to Hide the Hide. I cannot draw attention to my speed increase at all, it will be discovered.

Vas did not do this. In fact Vas put a really big flashing light on his Hide. Vas was not trying to hide his hide at all. Vas said "Hey Chess World look at this, I removed a digit from the kns instead of 4000kns now Rybka will read 400 kns".

This really bugs me. It is as if he did this mickey mouse kns reduction to throw programmers away from something else. Why else he would draw the whole chess worlds attention to what is is hiding?

Another thing that bugs me. Vas thinks the kns hide has a purpose that will work against Robert, Uri, Theron, Uniacke, Amir, Shay, Cozzie, etc..
Game users are not a threat against the Vas code. Vas goal is to deceive other programmers or those that can disassemble his code.

And another thing. Vas said "this aint no race". lol he knows better. I know one guy who sold a kidney to buy an 8x4gig.
All the top gamers know that their games are an extreme depth race inside the best search code, coming out of the best book position---will win you the most games.

Vas is an extreme racer, always looking for the newest four socket.
kgburcham

Simple. _he_ didn't draw attention to this. Others started comparing numbers and noticed that somethings displayed made no sense. Node counts going backward, Impossible NPS values, etc. You can find most of this in discussions a year or two back. He had to say something after there was such a discussion on all message boards (didn't start here in fact) about the funny numbers. Then we had the Strelka disassembly issue where several (I did not pay any attention to it, but others like Cozzie did) and concluded that that version of Rybka had no "super-evaluation to explain the low and fluctuating NPS values.

He hid it as well as you can hide any drag-racing trick. But when you get to the track and cut a 4.5 1/8th mile, nobody is going to say "OK, reasonable on a N/A motor with just a big carb on top..." The results and the numbers have to jive, or else some will start to work on isolating the reasons the numbers don't jive. And they will find that stealth nitrous hookup that was carefully run up the bellhousing, and under the intake so it would not be visible...

Again such a mean propaganda nonsense. Vas isnt hiding something in a race. There is no race with equal chances. This is ridiculous to assume. And you are saying, because someone is better, therefore others must find his secrets instead that they invent their owe ones. What a logic. What a mean twist on usually best American traditions of competition. Nowhere the best is envied so much as in computerchess IMO. Perhaps not, because people cheat with drugs and doping.

Believe what you want. There are two ways to make progress, one is to copy what others have done, and _everybody_ has been doing this for years. the other is to develop a new idea, and this is one of those things that is becoming more and more rare. If you are one of the ones that come up with a new idea, and you are a commercial author depending on sales for income, then you bet you will do everything possible to protect your idea and hide it from prying eyes for as long as possible, because once it is public, it will no longer be an edge. We already have people developing test positions that can expose many internal details, such as what R factor in null move, does it do reductions, singular extensions, etc. To thwart that kind of analysis requires some gyrations, and those certainly include mangled search depths, node counts, and PV displays...

I used to have a lot of fun on retrograde analysis, where you are given a position and told (say) "White just captured a black knight, which piece now stands on the square where the knight was?" And some are very convoluted in the thought process necessary to eliminate piece by white piece until you are just left with one. And people are capable of doing that with a chess engine. Just give them the executable, and they can tell you a lot about it. Now if you fudge the numbers so that you claim to be searching deeper than you are, or less deeply, and you fudge the node counter so that it appears you are spending more time in evaluation than in search. Anything to throw the observers off the proper analysis path...

Bob, what are you doing? Is it really your job to explain how robbers could enter a closed door of your neighbors' home after you were informed what sort of key they were using now? Is that the job of an academic teacher? Just for science purposes? You are completely correct with your description but I miss a word of contempt in your message for such practices. Why are you doing this?

Why am I doing what? I design a car. I can't look at other cars to see if they have features I would like to replicate? This is the real world.

[geots]

"There is only one reason to hide something. To keep the details secret."

Robert, whenever I am hiding something in my racing to get through the tech line, It is very important to Hide the Hide. I cannot draw attention to my speed increase at all, it will be discovered.

Vas did not do this. In fact Vas put a really big flashing light on his Hide. Vas was not trying to hide his hide at all. Vas said "Hey Chess World look at this, I removed a digit from the kns instead of 4000kns now Rybka will read 400 kns".

This really bugs me. It is as if he did this mickey mouse kns reduction to throw programmers away from something else. Why else he would draw the whole chess worlds attention to what is is hiding?

Another thing that bugs me. Vas thinks the kns hide has a purpose that will work against Robert, Uri, Theron, Uniacke, Amir, Shay, Cozzie, etc..
Game users are not a threat against the Vas code. Vas goal is to deceive other programmers or those that can disassemble his code.

And another thing. Vas said "this aint no race". lol he knows better. I know one guy who sold a kidney to buy an 8x4gig.
All the top gamers know that their games are an extreme depth race inside the best search code, coming out of the best book position---will win you the most games.

Vas is an extreme racer, always looking for the newest four socket.
kgburcham

Simple. _he_ didn't draw attention to this. Others started comparing numbers and noticed that somethings displayed made no sense. Node counts going backward, Impossible NPS values, etc. You can find most of this in discussions a year or two back. He had to say something after there was such a discussion on all message boards (didn't start here in fact) about the funny numbers. Then we had the Strelka disassembly issue where several (I did not pay any attention to it, but others like Cozzie did) and concluded that that version of Rybka had no "super-evaluation to explain the low and fluctuating NPS values.

He hid it as well as you can hide any drag-racing trick. But when you get to the track and cut a 4.5 1/8th mile, nobody is going to say "OK, reasonable on a N/A motor with just a big carb on top..." The results and the numbers have to jive, or else some will start to work on isolating the reasons the numbers don't jive. And they will find that stealth nitrous hookup that was carefully run up the bellhousing, and under the intake so it would not be visible...

Again such a mean propaganda nonsense. Vas isnt hiding something in a race. There is no race with equal chances. This is ridiculous to assume. And you are saying, because someone is better, therefore others must find his secrets instead that they invent their owe ones. What a logic. What a mean twist on usually best American traditions of competition. Nowhere the best is envied so much as in computerchess IMO. Perhaps not, because people cheat with drugs and doping.

Believe what you want. There are two ways to make progress, one is to copy what others have done, and _everybody_ has been doing this for years. the other is to develop a new idea, and this is one of those things that is becoming more and more rare. If you are one of the ones that come up with a new idea, and you are a commercial author depending on sales for income, then you bet you will do everything possible to protect your idea and hide it from prying eyes for as long as possible, because once it is public, it will no longer be an edge. We already have people developing test positions that can expose many internal details, such as what R factor in null move, does it do reductions, singular extensions, etc. To thwart that kind of analysis requires some gyrations, and those certainly include mangled search depths, node counts, and PV displays...

I used to have a lot of fun on retrograde analysis, where you are given a position and told (say) "White just captured a black knight, which piece now stands on the square where the knight was?" And some are very convoluted in the thought process necessary to eliminate piece by white piece until you are just left with one. And people are capable of doing that with a chess engine. Just give them the executable, and they can tell you a lot about it. Now if you fudge the numbers so that you claim to be searching deeper than you are, or less deeply, and you fudge the node counter so that it appears you are spending more time in evaluation than in search. Anything to throw the observers off the proper analysis path...

Bob, what are you doing? Is it really your job to explain how robbers could enter a closed door of your neighbors' home after you were informed what sort of key they were using now? Is that the job of an academic teacher? Just for science purposes? You are completely correct with your description but I miss a word of contempt in your message for such practices. Why are you doing this?

Started to just "reply" instead of "quote". But i might as well waste some space too. Bob and Rolf going at it- now that's more like the old CCC i came to know.

[GenoM]

It's really funny to watch Ralf reaction. His point is internally contradictory: actions of Rajlich (to hide what he discovered) are right in such a competitive world, but actions of people who wants to know what he hid (following the principles of this same competitive world) are inappropriate.
Me thinks it's just physics: Newton's third law, you know. No place for sentiments. Just laws of physics. In Bulgaria there is a proverb: what have been called, such have responded.
Regards,
Geno

[Rolf]

It's really funny to watch Ralf reaction. His point is internally contradictory: actions of Rajlich (to hide what he discovered) are right in such a competitive world, but actions of people who wants to know what he hid (following the principles of this same competitive world) are inappropriate.
Me thinks it's just physics: Newton's third law, you know. No place for sentiments. Just laws of physics. In Bulgaria there is a proverb: what have been called, such have responded.
Regards,
Geno

Bob is likewise fed by an umbilical cord (from university money) like Bulgaria is fed by umbilical cord by EU especially Germany. What do you and Bob know about competition?? You arent fighting for survival like Vas must do for his family! Therefore I call it indecent if you all want to break his secrets. At first show up with your own entry into the competition but you cant. Go into the wilderness of the jungle version of computerchess. Bob and Bulgaria! Become competitive!

[GenoM]

It's really funny to watch Ralf reaction. His point is internally contradictory: actions of Rajlich (to hide what he discovered) are right in such a competitive world, but actions of people who wants to know what he hid (following the principles of this same competitive world) are inappropriate.
Me thinks it's just physics: Newton's third law, you know. No place for sentiments. Just laws of physics. In Bulgaria there is a proverb: what have been called, such have responded.
Regards,
Geno

Bob is likewise fed by an umbilical cord (from university money) like Bulgaria is fed by umbilical cord by EU especially Germany. What do you and Bob know about competition?? You arent fighting for survival like Vas must do for his family! Therefore I call it indecent if you all want to break his secrets. At first show up with your own entry into the competition but you cant. Go into the wilderness of the jungle version of computerchess. Bob and Bulgaria! Become competitive!

Hi Rolf
When I have to explain to myself your behaviour, I without being a psychologist need not any knowledge about what your nationality is.
I didn't believe you're a racist but facts are facts, even gods have to keep silence in front of facts...