FIDE rules expert wanted!

[Uri Blass]

It is clear that if you resign in king against king it is a draw because the game was already over when you resigned.

We were (of course!) not discussing lone king against lone king. Your remark is useless. We were discussing situations where ONE player has the lone king but NOT the other player, and THE OTHER player exceeds the time limit, or resigns. That was what we were discussing Uri. Ok?

Some people seem to have reading troubles.

My remark is not useless because
I responded to a poster who claimed
"You can't resign when the game already ended." and I explained that the situation that we talk about it different than the situation when the game already ended.

You quote only part of my post and the second part also explained the situation when the side that resign has more than a king.

Uri

[Uri Blass]

In fact I'd add KNNK as well.

In KNN-K, mate is possible against most unskilled play (as it is in KB-KN). So, these are not "inavoidable" draws by FIDE rules.

But I won't contradict if in computer chess, an interface and/or an engine declares these drawn, for practical reasons (except mate in the next move is possible).

[D]7k/8/7K/4n3/5n2/8/8/8 b - - 0 99

99...Nf7#.

Which means, if you have this position:

[D]7k/8/7q/4n2K/5n2/8/8/8 w - - 0 99

You cannot "declare" the draw after 99.Kxh6. Because the reply is 99...Nf7#.

The position that you post is illegal(you cannot threat check both with queen and knight when the queen has a distance of one square from the enemy king

Here is a legal example when white cannot claim a draw by Kxh6

[D]7k/8/7q/4n1K1/5n2/8/8/8 w - - 0 99

Earlier position may be the following position

[D]7k/8/Q7/4n1K1/5n2/8/7q/8 w - - 0 98

If white believes that KNN vs K is a draw he may play Qh6+ without analysis and lose the game.

Qf6+ is enough to draw the game

[Terry McCracken]

In fact I'd add KNNK as well.

In KNN-K, mate is possible against most unskilled play (as it is in KB-KN). So, these are not "inavoidable" draws by FIDE rules.

But I won't contradict if in computer chess, an interface and/or an engine declares these drawn, for practical reasons (except mate in the next move is possible).

[D]7k/8/7K/4n3/5n2/8/8/8 b - - 0 99

99...Nf7#.

Which means, if you have this position:

[D]7k/8/7q/4n2K/5n2/8/8/8 w - - 0 99

You cannot "declare" the draw after 99.Kxh6. Because the reply is 99...Nf7#.

Yes helpmates by totally unskilled players means losing is possible, but not with engines of today and of course not against skilled humans either.

Your position is amusing.

[George Tsavdaris]

It is clear that if you resign in king against king it is a draw because the game was already over when you resigned.

We were (of course!) not discussing lone king against lone king. Your remark is useless. We were discussing situations where ONE player has the lone king but NOT the other player, and THE OTHER player exceeds the time limit, or resigns. That was what we were discussing Uri. Ok?

Some people seem to have reading troubles.

I think it's time for me to stop posting in this forum until new moderators get elected.
If the moderators allow you to say such lies and escape then there is no point to continue.
If the moderators allow you to insult people(Uri) in such way and escape then there is no point to continue also.

People may not understand what i'm saying but i can only say that there was a post of yours that was deleted that contained the insult as also the complete wrong things you have said, and now that your complete mistake has been deleted you can lie easily.


I will repeat what you have said, excluding your big insult against Uri since if i didn't do that, moderators will for sure delete my message(there is still a possibility that they will remove my message):

-------------------------------------------
Uri:
"It is clear that if you resign in king against king it is a draw because the game was already over when you resigned."
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Reply to the above post of Uri by you:
Mike S:
"Appearantly you do not understand the FIDE rules. If you resign in king against king, it is of course a LOSS. Because the game has NOT ended earlier. I don't know what you are phantasizing about "game has ended" it has not ended!!! "
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Reply to your above message:
H.G.Muller:
Hmm...,
I am afraid the FIDE sides with Uri in this matter, though:

Quote:
The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent`s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a `dead position`. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was legal.
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And now that moderators deleted your initial reply you reply again and you are saying:
Mike S:
We were (of course!) not discussing lone king against lone king. Your remark is useless.
-------------------------------------------

No comment needed.

I would also like to comment on your initial post again:

Mike S:
"Appearantly you do not understand the FIDE rules. If you resign in king against king, it is of course a LOSS. Because the game has NOT ended earlier. I don't know what you are phantasizing about "game has ended" it has not ended!!! "

It's you that you don't understand/know the FIDE rules as it seems....

[Uri Blass]

Thanks for the support.
I understood Mike's posts as something that is meant to the discussion before the deleted post.

I think that Mike meant to say that we were not discussing king against king situation at the time that I posted my post.
The post that he made later is not relevant for that claim and I decided not to reply it after seeing the supporting responses.

Uri

[Tony]

You can't resign when the game already ended.

I never said that you can resign after the game has already ended. That never was in question. We were not talking about games which have already ended. Your reply does not make sense.

Yes it does.

You cannot resign with a bare king against king and knight because the games has already ended ( in a draw)

Tony

[hgm]

WinBoard does not allow claiming of draws like KNNK, KNKN, KBKN and KBKB (with unlike B). Testers that have enogh confidence in the engines that they consider it a waste of time to play out these games to the 50-move limit can use the option /trivialDraws to have such games adjudicated as draw. This then also works for KRKR and KQKQ (although perhaps the latter should be taken out). Ais done only after 3 moves into these end-games, to allow winning tactics as in the KQNNK example to extend into these end-games without adjudication.

So beware:

If black claims a draw in KNNK, it is a false claim, but because the opponent is bare, he still has a draw.

If black claims a draw in KNNK, or if either side claims a draw in KNKN, KBKN or KBKB (unlike B), he loses!

[Mike S.]

I was confused because the point made was contradictory, or in other words an impossible situation. If a game has already ended, resigning isn't possible anymore, anyway.

[Sven]

If black claims a draw in KNNK, it is a false claim, but because the opponent is bare, he still has a draw.

I think you mean "If white claims ...".

Sven

[hgm]

Oh, sorry. I put it down exactly the wrong way around. Fortunately, WinBoard is smarter than I am, and does it correctly!