Rybka3, Arena & Hashtable szie

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Gerd Lahnstein

Re: Dear Ulysses

Post by Gerd Lahnstein »

Tony Thomas wrote:Why is it that the guy who posted the results above has almost the same results as kat Kuhaut Ko?? Did he start a new account?
No, he didn't.

I am a different person actually, guess the forum software stores the user IPs, so the admin could verify that I am posting from Germany and not from Singapore.

I have been a passive reader of this engine experts forum for a while and thought I should share my observations regarding the rybka hash size when I came across this thread.

Thanks for your feedback, and for the power of 2 hint, did not realized that before.

For my CPU is rather old and slow, I usually try to find out the optimal settings for my programs, so with rybka. Unfortunately rybka does not tell anything about its hash usage (percentage off filling) like other engines, so one has to try and find out himself what is best.

To me it looks like there is some influence the way rybka works internally due to different hash size. And it may not always follow the rule: larger = better.

Perhaps they also use different algorithms depending on hash size. An indication could be that with 64 MB hash rybka doesn't go further than depth 10 in my testing position
(FEN: r3r3/p2n4/2qpp2k/1p5n/3PNp1p/1PP1QP2/P1B2P2/6RK w - - 0 1)
even after 1 hour, probably due to a bug which is unveiled only with a 64 MB hash algorithm?
Another indication could be the time to find the winning move which is 3-4 times faster with 64 MB hash.

Think this needs further investigation, as proposed by Ernest I will do some additional tests with a couple of different positions at the weekend.
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Ovyron
Posts: 4556
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:30 am

Re: Rybka3, Arena & Hashtable szie

Post by Ovyron »

Karmazen & Oliver wrote:OK, BUT never is posible that "small" hashtable show betters results...
It is. It's like saying that longer analysis time leads to better moves, but engines may find the best move in shallow depths and then change its mind later missing the best move, so shorter thinking time may look better. It's not a super bug, it's normal behavior.

By the way, Vas does have a list of bugs reported by the users at Rybka forum, if you find a bug and it's not fixed probably it's because you didn't report it at the right place.
ernest
Posts: 2041
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:30 pm

Re: Rybka3, Arena & Hashtable szie

Post by ernest »

Ovyron wrote: people are getting different results with 384 and 256 MB.
What people? this Gerd Lahnstein guy is getting
384 MB: 10 +0.69 1.Sxd6 (31.63)
256 MB: 10 +0.69 1.Sxd6 (32.00)

384 MB: 13 +7.93 1.Sxd6 (900.13)
256 MB: 13 +7.93 1.Sxd6 (902.70)

I call these results the same!

I only answer to you because you usually write sensible things.

This Oliver has a Twist in his brain :lol:
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Ovyron
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Re: Rybka3, Arena & Hashtable szie

Post by Ovyron »

ernest wrote:What people?
Kah, Huat and Koh. ;)

I don't have enough RAM to check. :oops:
Karmazen & Oliver
Posts: 374
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:34 am

Re: Rybka3, Arena & Hashtable szie

Post by Karmazen & Oliver »

ernest wrote:
Ovyron wrote: people are getting different results with 384 and 256 MB.
What people? this Gerd Lahnstein guy is getting

...

I call these results the same!

I only answer to you because you usually write sensible things.

:lol:
The problem is the TIME, not the result... innocent Brain. XD-

other example ¡?

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be2 Bg7 5. f4 O-O 6. Nf3 c5 7. Be3

Each time, I "clear hash" and re-boot my pc before I use different hastable size. I am surprised with the following result

(1) hashtable size = 64Mb, move play is 7...Qa5, score +0.09, time taken is 02:56

(2) 128Mb, 7...cxd5, score -0.01, time:5:52

(3) 256Mb, 7...Qb6, score 0.00, time: 03:50

(4) 384Mb, 7...cxd5, score +0.02, time:11:20 (!)

(5) 512Mb, 7...Qa5, score +0.11, time: 04:32
diferent hash, similar plys, horriblus TIME... and horriblus brains...

bye. from spain.
Karmazen & Oliver
Posts: 374
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:34 am

Re: Rybka3, Arena & Hashtable szie

Post by Karmazen & Oliver »

Ovyron wrote:
Karmazen & Oliver wrote:OK, BUT never is posible that "small" hashtable show betters results...
It is. It's like saying that longer analysis time leads to better moves, but engines may find the best move in shallow depths and then change its mind later missing the best move, so shorter thinking time may look better (N.E: I don´t think that...) . It's not a super bug, it's normal behavior.

By the way, Vas does have a list of bugs reported by the users at Rybka forum, if you find a bug and it's not fixed probably it's because you didn't report it at the right place.
in the other hand, if we have enough RAM, more hash-table must show BETTER results Always ¡ and in better TIME ¡ the problem is the time...

of course this is another bug. for serius brains ;-)
Kohflote
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:07 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Rybka3, Arena & Hashtable szie

Post by Kohflote »

Hi all,

I've some problem with my pc and just managed to logon. Agreed that is strange that smaller hash size gets the result much faster than larger hash size....

Thank you for all your kind reply. Hope someone can clear this up.

Best Regards,
Kah Huat, Koh
- from Singapore
Karmazen & Oliver
Posts: 374
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:34 am

Re: Rybka3, Arena & Hashtable szie

Post by Karmazen & Oliver »

Kohflote wrote:Hi all,

I've some problem with my pc and just managed to logon. Agreed that is strange that smaller hash size gets the result much faster than larger hash size....

Thank you for all your kind reply. Hope someone can clear this up.

Best Regards,
Kah Huat, Koh
- from Singapore
Agreed that is strange that smaller hash size gets the result much faster than larger hash size....


is strange that ??? OK. It´not strage. it´s A BUG..

more RAM always is better for fast and better plys search... ( if we have enough ram to don´t access HDD, with 2 GB, 128 MB-256MB-512MB are good values for ram, excepts for super fast game 1 minute / game, because engine need more time to reset memory after every game )

but for analysis, more ram is better and it´s not .. ITS A BUG. simple, we do´t need two or quad neuronal for think that alone it is felt common

bye. from Spain.

OLIVER.
Robert Weck
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:19 am

Re: Rybka3, Arena & Hashtable szie

Post by Robert Weck »

Karmazen & Oliver wrote: is strange that ??? OK. It´not strage. it´s A BUG..

more RAM always is better for fast and better plys search...
i doubt that...

My thoughts about it:

It makes no sense to use e. g. 512 MB HT on a slow computer, as it has no chance to fill all the memory! It would simply waste too much processing time with filling and managing the Hash Tables.

And if the correct move is found early then small HTs should perform better.


Robert
Kohflote
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:07 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Rybka3, Arena & Hashtable szie

Post by Kohflote »

Hi Robert,

I am using an Intel Core 2 Duo CPU, 2.20 GHz. I don't think it is a slow cpu....


Best Regards,
Kah Huat, Koh
- from Singapore