Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

[wgarvin]

It would be easy for me stay quiet, and say nothing. After all, I could not care less about VR himself. However, as I said before, I see terrible precedents set here (technical, philosophical, and procedural).

I do not know whether VR is innocent or guilty. But, I see that that the evidence is not convincing enough. There was a laborious clever job by ZW and MW, but the whole scenario is compatible with VR incorporating features learned w/o copying code.

All right, that makes me an individual that is against the current. Then so be it. Count me in with the pariahs.

Miguel

Okay. I must now throw out all of the good thoughts I have of you and consider you with utter contempt.

I think that would be a mistake. You shouldn't condemn someone for their beliefs, only for bad behaviour.

[Graham Banks]

It would be easy for me stay quiet, and say nothing. After all, I could not care less about VR himself. However, as I said before, I see terrible precedents set here (technical, philosophical, and procedural).

I do not know whether VR is innocent or guilty. But, I see that that the evidence is not convincing enough. There was a laborious clever job by ZW and MW, but the whole scenario is compatible with VR incorporating features learned w/o copying code.

All right, that makes me an individual that is against the current. Then so be it. Count me in with the pariahs.

Miguel

Okay. I must now throw out all of the good thoughts I have of you and consider you with utter contempt.

I think that would be a mistake. You shouldn't condemn someone for their beliefs, only for bad behaviour.

Knowing Adam, I can tell you that it was just a joke.

[Adam Hair]

It would be easy for me stay quiet, and say nothing. After all, I could not care less about VR himself. However, as I said before, I see terrible precedents set here (technical, philosophical, and procedural).

I do not know whether VR is innocent or guilty. But, I see that that the evidence is not convincing enough. There was a laborious clever job by ZW and MW, but the whole scenario is compatible with VR incorporating features learned w/o copying code.

All right, that makes me an individual that is against the current. Then so be it. Count me in with the pariahs.

Miguel

Okay. I must now throw out all of the good thoughts I have of you and consider you with utter contempt.

I think that would be a mistake. You shouldn't condemn someone for their beliefs, only for bad behaviour.

Hi Wylie,

I can understand your response. However, I do hope Miguel interprets my post as a joke. I have every reason to believe he understands the respect I have for him.

Adam

[Kirill Kryukov]

Hi Frank,

Simple quesion. What would you do if you were a sportsman and was invited to play in a tournament where a known cheater was playing. Would you bend over and participate, or would you stand up for your rights?

Two big issues that I see here:

1. A clear conflict of interests. Engine users want more strong engines. Tournament organizers want more participants. On the other hand, engine authors want a fair environment where they can enjoy honest competition. These are conflicting goals. Although a tournament organizer, I am a programmer too, so I side with engine authors in this debate.

2. Most non-programmers totally fail to understand the difference between borrowing code and borrowing ideas. Countless explanations didn't seem to help at all, and you still keep talking about all programmers equally learning from Fruit.

With respect,
Kirill

[michiguel]

It would be easy for me stay quiet, and say nothing. After all, I could not care less about VR himself. However, as I said before, I see terrible precedents set here (technical, philosophical, and procedural).

I do not know whether VR is innocent or guilty. But, I see that that the evidence is not convincing enough. There was a laborious clever job by ZW and MW, but the whole scenario is compatible with VR incorporating features learned w/o copying code.

All right, that makes me an individual that is against the current. Then so be it. Count me in with the pariahs.

Miguel

Okay. I must now throw out all of the good thoughts I have of you and consider you with utter contempt.

I think that would be a mistake. You shouldn't condemn someone for their beliefs, only for bad behaviour.

Hi Wylie,

I can understand your response. However, I do hope Miguel interprets my post as a joke. I have every reason to believe he understands the respect I have for him.

Adam

Adam: Of course, I know you are joking.

Wylie: I truly appreciate your comments.

Miguel

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Kirill,

oh, that is an easy question for me.

I would give my answere with my own engine (if I had) on the chessboard. I would search the discussion with other programmers personally during such a tournament. And I am sure I would have fun during the tournament. People in Leiden are very nice!

In the maintime I am sure I would eating the fantastic frikandeln the Dutch people produced.

And I would try to get Cock de Corter on a chessboard. Cock is an opening expert, works a long time in the TheKing team. Believe me, this is really an event to play a game vs. Cock de Corter.

Or what did you mean?
Clones?

As programmer this one would never a topic for me because I can look only on this things I do and not on the things others do. What others do should be not my own problem. The only problem I think I would have is to get enough frikandeln.

As programmer my program, I am sure, is more important as problems others produced.

But I would help the organisation with my opinion during the tournament to the topic "Clones". Perhaps I can help, perhaps not!

Very easy for myself!
Seems to be complicated for programmers!

Best
Frank

[Frank Quisinsky]

Code: Select all

This is not a "political" issue. It is a factual case of someone clearly breaking the rules, breaking copyright law, and then denying it repeatedly. That's all there is to it. The letter to the CSVN simply shows that THEIR statements were also completely false, which means their conclusions are not based on any truth whatsoever. Everyone should just ignore what Vas did? What the CSVN did? The old "turn the other cheek" repeated over and over and over? When do you finally realize that you'd better do something different before you get your head slapped off completely? Tournaments are not fun when knowing cheaters are playing. Human chess events. Human sporting events. Computer chess events. All are the same.

Two possibilties Bob:

1. Don't be a sorehead or a starry-eyed idealist, hobby policemen. As programmer I would give my answere on a chessboard with my own engine. And if an other engine is 300 ELO stronger, OK my program will be lost this game. If this engine used sources by other programmers should this one as programmer not my own problem. This one is a main problem with all the available open sources. If I gave my sources for free, I can't play policemen Bob. If not, my own sources are closed and an other program with clone sources is better as my own engine, is this not my own problem too. More or less the problem other produced.

2. Perhaps I would not play a game if a clear proof is available that the "important parts" of sources are an 1to1 copy of engine Y. Bob, I am speaking from the important parts! Not from the boring parts of sources.

Where is your problem Bob?
If you gave your sources for free why you singature this open letter? For me is clear Bob have a problem with yourself.

Sources of programs on official tournaments should be clear. Not only Vas should gave here sources for an review. If my own sources never checked I can't signature this open letter too.

With an eval from -1.0 believe me I would never signature an open letter. No, no ... I would fighting on the chessboard, opponent as programmer should not important for myself. My own work as programmer is important alone!

Best
Frank

What CSVN did?
What did you mean?
30 years CSVN tourneys, Aegon ... what is wrong here. The good organization over all these years?

[Frank Quisinsky]

If I am programmer ...

If I am user of programs:
I await: Forthrightneses

If I an see that programmer A is not fair to others I can ignore this person and his "own" developement.

If I am a organizer:
So long we not have a clear defination to "Clones" I would say to the programmers: Sorry what should I do? If you have as programmer a problem with engine x don't play this game with your own engine or fighting on the chessboard.

I as organzier can't solved the long days problems the programmers itself produced.

Best
Frank

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Bob,

not sure, but I believe (please give me a correction) that you never drive to Leiden and participant personally in one of the tournaments the people in Leiden organized.

Logicial question:
Why you signature the open letter?

Logical answer can be if you are honest:
I have my own reasons for it which have nothing to do with the tournament in Leiden. In detail: I have a problem with Vas since many years. I have a problem that my own open sources are cloned. Bob, its your decision to give your sources for free or not. You can't say, please here are my sources and all others with try a bit are now cloners.

On official tournaments you should fighting on the chessboard. What is right or not must not go to the mailbox by Cock de Corter. Cock de Corter must not solved the problems the programmers produced.

I think you should fight better on the front and not via Internet in this case! And I hope you do that because we need you and all your knowledge for it. But not with such open letters.

Best
Frank

[Rebel]

I also used to have a lot of respect for Ed S. as the author of Rebel, but it has suffered somewhat of late. It is hard to respect someone who persistently argues in such a dishonest way.

Hi Wylie,

I am happy to serve as scapegoat, that is all well calculated on beforehand.

I can understand your frustration with me.

Best to you,

Ed