I find the old programs very interesting. And yes it is great we can have Sargon playing on a modern PC. But Sargon could play good chess for those days long past.
Dan and Kathe Spracklen from their oral history on the Sargon 2 vs Awit game, round 4, ACM 1978
"I think the most exciting part for us was the last round of the tournament, when we played Tony Marsland’s program Awit. It was a 6 million dollar Amdahl computer. And we won the game. And we were just amazed. I remember, at the time, we won it. And there was a huge audience there. There was like a hundred people sitting out there, watching it, and they just all started cheering and clapping. And then we woke up the following morning to a big article in the Washington Post that says, Microcomputer Beats 6 Million Dollar Machine, or something like that."
# Program R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 P Class
1 Sargon 9_1 4_1 5_1 2_1 8_1 5 A - 1
2 Commodore ChessMate 8_½ 3_1 9_½ 1_0 5_1 3 B - 1
3 Boris 5_½ 2_0 bye½ 9_1 4_1 3 B - 1
4 Chess Challenger 6_1 1_0 8_1 7_1 3_0 3 B - 1
5 8080 Chess 3_½ 10_1 1_0 8_1 2_0 2½ A - 2
6 SD Chess 4_0 9_0 11_1 7_1 2 C - 1
7 Tenberg Basic Chess 11_1 10_1 4_0 6_0 2 C - 1
8 Steve Stuart Chess 10_1 2_½ 4_0 5_0 1_0 1½ B - 2
9 CompuChess 1_0 6_1 2_½ 3_0 1½ B - 2
10 Compucolor Chess 8_0 5_0 7_0 11_1 1 A - 3
11 Mark Watson Chess 7_0 6_0 10_0 0 C - 2
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
mwyoung wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:33 am
I find the old programs very interesting. And yes it is great we can have Sargon playing on a modern PC. But Sargon could play good chess for those days long past.
Dan and Kathe Spracklen from their oral history on the Sargon 2 vs Awit game, round 4, ACM 1978
"I think the most exciting part for us was the last round of the tournament, when we played Tony Marsland’s program Awit. It was a 6 million dollar Amdahl computer. And we won the game. And we were just amazed. I remember, at the time, we won it. And there was a huge audience there. There was like a hundred people sitting out there, watching it, and they just all started cheering and clapping. And then we woke up the following morning to a big article in the Washington Post that says, Microcomputer Beats 6 Million Dollar Machine, or something like that."
# Program R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 P Class
1 Sargon 9_1 4_1 5_1 2_1 8_1 5 A - 1
2 Commodore ChessMate 8_½ 3_1 9_½ 1_0 5_1 3 B - 1
3 Boris 5_½ 2_0 bye½ 9_1 4_1 3 B - 1
4 Chess Challenger 6_1 1_0 8_1 7_1 3_0 3 B - 1
5 8080 Chess 3_½ 10_1 1_0 8_1 2_0 2½ A - 2
6 SD Chess 4_0 9_0 11_1 7_1 2 C - 1
7 Tenberg Basic Chess 11_1 10_1 4_0 6_0 2 C - 1
8 Steve Stuart Chess 10_1 2_½ 4_0 5_0 1_0 1½ B - 2
9 CompuChess 1_0 6_1 2_½ 3_0 1½ B - 2
10 Compucolor Chess 8_0 5_0 7_0 11_1 1 A - 3
11 Mark Watson Chess 7_0 6_0 10_0 0 C - 2
Were there any estimates at the time of what human rating it would earn in a tournament? I think that MacHack, which played Fischer around that time, was probably in the 1800 to 2000 range then (it was 1540 or so a decade earlier when I worked on it), but that doesn't tell us much about
Sargon, running on vastly cheaper hardware.
mwyoung wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:33 am
I find the old programs very interesting. And yes it is great we can have Sargon playing on a modern PC. But Sargon could play good chess for those days long past.
Dan and Kathe Spracklen from their oral history on the Sargon 2 vs Awit game, round 4, ACM 1978
"I think the most exciting part for us was the last round of the tournament, when we played Tony Marsland’s program Awit. It was a 6 million dollar Amdahl computer. And we won the game. And we were just amazed. I remember, at the time, we won it. And there was a huge audience there. There was like a hundred people sitting out there, watching it, and they just all started cheering and clapping. And then we woke up the following morning to a big article in the Washington Post that says, Microcomputer Beats 6 Million Dollar Machine, or something like that."
# Program R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 P Class
1 Sargon 9_1 4_1 5_1 2_1 8_1 5 A - 1
2 Commodore ChessMate 8_½ 3_1 9_½ 1_0 5_1 3 B - 1
3 Boris 5_½ 2_0 bye½ 9_1 4_1 3 B - 1
4 Chess Challenger 6_1 1_0 8_1 7_1 3_0 3 B - 1
5 8080 Chess 3_½ 10_1 1_0 8_1 2_0 2½ A - 2
6 SD Chess 4_0 9_0 11_1 7_1 2 C - 1
7 Tenberg Basic Chess 11_1 10_1 4_0 6_0 2 C - 1
8 Steve Stuart Chess 10_1 2_½ 4_0 5_0 1_0 1½ B - 2
9 CompuChess 1_0 6_1 2_½ 3_0 1½ B - 2
10 Compucolor Chess 8_0 5_0 7_0 11_1 1 A - 3
11 Mark Watson Chess 7_0 6_0 10_0 0 C - 2
Were there any estimates at the time of what human rating it would earn in a tournament? I think that MacHack, which played Fischer around that time, was probably in the 1800 to 2000 range then (it was 1540 or so a decade earlier when I worked on it), but that doesn't tell us much about
Sargon, running on vastly cheaper hardware.
I could not find any human games, only a reported Elo of 1200. And that is clearly bunk in 1978. You did get very close to the CCRL rating. You gave Sargon 1275 est CCRL. Sargon's rating on CCRL is 1254.
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
mwyoung wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:33 am
I find the old programs very interesting. And yes it is great we can have Sargon playing on a modern PC. But Sargon could play good chess for those days long past.
Dan and Kathe Spracklen from their oral history on the Sargon 2 vs Awit game, round 4, ACM 1978
"I think the most exciting part for us was the last round of the tournament, when we played Tony Marsland’s program Awit. It was a 6 million dollar Amdahl computer. And we won the game. And we were just amazed. I remember, at the time, we won it. And there was a huge audience there. There was like a hundred people sitting out there, watching it, and they just all started cheering and clapping. And then we woke up the following morning to a big article in the Washington Post that says, Microcomputer Beats 6 Million Dollar Machine, or something like that."
# Program R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 P Class
1 Sargon 9_1 4_1 5_1 2_1 8_1 5 A - 1
2 Commodore ChessMate 8_½ 3_1 9_½ 1_0 5_1 3 B - 1
3 Boris 5_½ 2_0 bye½ 9_1 4_1 3 B - 1
4 Chess Challenger 6_1 1_0 8_1 7_1 3_0 3 B - 1
5 8080 Chess 3_½ 10_1 1_0 8_1 2_0 2½ A - 2
6 SD Chess 4_0 9_0 11_1 7_1 2 C - 1
7 Tenberg Basic Chess 11_1 10_1 4_0 6_0 2 C - 1
8 Steve Stuart Chess 10_1 2_½ 4_0 5_0 1_0 1½ B - 2
9 CompuChess 1_0 6_1 2_½ 3_0 1½ B - 2
10 Compucolor Chess 8_0 5_0 7_0 11_1 1 A - 3
11 Mark Watson Chess 7_0 6_0 10_0 0 C - 2
Were there any estimates at the time of what human rating it would earn in a tournament? I think that MacHack, which played Fischer around that time, was probably in the 1800 to 2000 range then (it was 1540 or so a decade earlier when I worked on it), but that doesn't tell us much about
Sargon, running on vastly cheaper hardware.
I could not find any human games, only a reported Elo of 1200. And that is clearly bunk in 1978. You did get very close to the CCRL rating. You gave Sargon 1275 est CCRL. Sargon's rating on CCRL is 1254.
I guess I should have checked the list first! I just assumed it had no rating on CCRL. Well, the obvious question is this: if we assume that the 1200 estimate in 1978 was at least in the right ballpark, how can it only be 1275 on an i7, which is like a gazillion times faster than 1978 hardware (does anyone know the actual speed ratio, or at least an estimate?)? I know that human ratings are compressed relative to engine ratings, so 1275 may really mean 1500 or 1600 human elo, but still, something seems very wrong here. Maybe a 1200 human now is much stronger than a 1200 human in 1978? It would have to be 1200 USCF in 1978, FIDE didn't go below 2200, but at the time FIDE and USCF ratings were comparable. Only in 1980 did they diverge.
mwyoung wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:33 am
I find the old programs very interesting. And yes it is great we can have Sargon playing on a modern PC. But Sargon could play good chess for those days long past.
Dan and Kathe Spracklen from their oral history on the Sargon 2 vs Awit game, round 4, ACM 1978
"I think the most exciting part for us was the last round of the tournament, when we played Tony Marsland’s program Awit. It was a 6 million dollar Amdahl computer. And we won the game. And we were just amazed. I remember, at the time, we won it. And there was a huge audience there. There was like a hundred people sitting out there, watching it, and they just all started cheering and clapping. And then we woke up the following morning to a big article in the Washington Post that says, Microcomputer Beats 6 Million Dollar Machine, or something like that."
# Program R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 P Class
1 Sargon 9_1 4_1 5_1 2_1 8_1 5 A - 1
2 Commodore ChessMate 8_½ 3_1 9_½ 1_0 5_1 3 B - 1
3 Boris 5_½ 2_0 bye½ 9_1 4_1 3 B - 1
4 Chess Challenger 6_1 1_0 8_1 7_1 3_0 3 B - 1
5 8080 Chess 3_½ 10_1 1_0 8_1 2_0 2½ A - 2
6 SD Chess 4_0 9_0 11_1 7_1 2 C - 1
7 Tenberg Basic Chess 11_1 10_1 4_0 6_0 2 C - 1
8 Steve Stuart Chess 10_1 2_½ 4_0 5_0 1_0 1½ B - 2
9 CompuChess 1_0 6_1 2_½ 3_0 1½ B - 2
10 Compucolor Chess 8_0 5_0 7_0 11_1 1 A - 3
11 Mark Watson Chess 7_0 6_0 10_0 0 C - 2
Were there any estimates at the time of what human rating it would earn in a tournament? I think that MacHack, which played Fischer around that time, was probably in the 1800 to 2000 range then (it was 1540 or so a decade earlier when I worked on it), but that doesn't tell us much about
Sargon, running on vastly cheaper hardware.
I could not find any human games, only a reported Elo of 1200. And that is clearly bunk in 1978. You did get very close to the CCRL rating. You gave Sargon 1275 est CCRL. Sargon's rating on CCRL is 1254.
I guess I should have checked the list first! I just assumed it had no rating on CCRL. Well, the obvious question is this: if we assume that the 1200 estimate in 1978 was at least in the right ballpark, how can it only be 1275 on an i7, which is like a gazillion times faster than 1978 hardware (does anyone know the actual speed ratio, or at least an estimate?)? I know that human ratings are compressed relative to engine ratings, so 1275 may really mean 1500 or 1600 human elo, but still, something seems very wrong here. Maybe a 1200 human now is much stronger than a 1200 human in 1978? It would have to be 1200 USCF in 1978, FIDE didn't go below 2200, but at the time FIDE and USCF ratings were comparable. Only in 1980 did they diverge.
It has been so long since I owned Sargon. Or a TRS-80, or as I called it the Trash-80. I looked up the instructions.
Hardware needed: one TRS-80 level II with 32k of memory minimum.
I would guess, as I don't remember anymore. You would get about 3 ply of search on level 3.
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
mwyoung wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:33 am
I find the old programs very interesting. And yes it is great we can have Sargon playing on a modern PC. But Sargon could play good chess for those days long past.
Dan and Kathe Spracklen from their oral history on the Sargon 2 vs Awit game, round 4, ACM 1978
"I think the most exciting part for us was the last round of the tournament, when we played Tony Marsland’s program Awit. It was a 6 million dollar Amdahl computer. And we won the game. And we were just amazed. I remember, at the time, we won it. And there was a huge audience there. There was like a hundred people sitting out there, watching it, and they just all started cheering and clapping. And then we woke up the following morning to a big article in the Washington Post that says, Microcomputer Beats 6 Million Dollar Machine, or something like that."
# Program R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 P Class
1 Sargon 9_1 4_1 5_1 2_1 8_1 5 A - 1
2 Commodore ChessMate 8_½ 3_1 9_½ 1_0 5_1 3 B - 1
3 Boris 5_½ 2_0 bye½ 9_1 4_1 3 B - 1
4 Chess Challenger 6_1 1_0 8_1 7_1 3_0 3 B - 1
5 8080 Chess 3_½ 10_1 1_0 8_1 2_0 2½ A - 2
6 SD Chess 4_0 9_0 11_1 7_1 2 C - 1
7 Tenberg Basic Chess 11_1 10_1 4_0 6_0 2 C - 1
8 Steve Stuart Chess 10_1 2_½ 4_0 5_0 1_0 1½ B - 2
9 CompuChess 1_0 6_1 2_½ 3_0 1½ B - 2
10 Compucolor Chess 8_0 5_0 7_0 11_1 1 A - 3
11 Mark Watson Chess 7_0 6_0 10_0 0 C - 2
Were there any estimates at the time of what human rating it would earn in a tournament? I think that MacHack, which played Fischer around that time, was probably in the 1800 to 2000 range then (it was 1540 or so a decade earlier when I worked on it), but that doesn't tell us much about
Sargon, running on vastly cheaper hardware.
I could not find any human games, only a reported Elo of 1200. And that is clearly bunk in 1978. You did get very close to the CCRL rating. You gave Sargon 1275 est CCRL. Sargon's rating on CCRL is 1254.
I guess I should have checked the list first! I just assumed it had no rating on CCRL. Well, the obvious question is this: if we assume that the 1200 estimate in 1978 was at least in the right ballpark, how can it only be 1275 on an i7, which is like a gazillion times faster than 1978 hardware (does anyone know the actual speed ratio, or at least an estimate?)? I know that human ratings are compressed relative to engine ratings, so 1275 may really mean 1500 or 1600 human elo, but still, something seems very wrong here. Maybe a 1200 human now is much stronger than a 1200 human in 1978? It would have to be 1200 USCF in 1978, FIDE didn't go below 2200, but at the time FIDE and USCF ratings were comparable. Only in 1980 did they diverge.
It has been so long since I owned Sargon. Or a TRS-80, or as I called it the Trash-80. I looked up the instructions.
Hardware needed: one TRS-80 level II with 32k of memory minimum.
"The worst thing that can happen to a forum is a running wild attacking moderator(HGM) who is not corrected by the community." - Ed Schröder
But my words like silent raindrops fell. And echoed in the wells of silence.
